To folks who have the model 66....

[LL617]

This may not be the right place to put this, but since the Model 66 was started in 1970, I thought that I would place it here....

I have heard that the model 66 is the smoothest shooter in either the .38SP or the .357 formulation, but that you have to be careful about the type of cartridge used in the .357 calibration. I am looking for a revolver to supplement my Bodyguard .38SP [which I will be using as my CWP revolver when the CWP gets here] which is smoother to handle without such a rough recoil.

After reading about the different model .357 S&W revolvers, I am interested in the model 66 because

I can save money on a quality used model.
It has a "target-like" trigger and I certainly like the trigger pull on my 617.
It is a supposedly the smoothest shooting of the K frame .357 revolvers.

Is the model 66 that much smoother?

Is it difficult to get the lighter .357 cartridges? Or should I restrict my search to the newer L frames?

I'm in no hurry to buy but would appreciate your wisdom and input.

[Roadranger]

The M66 was all the rage with LE when it appeared in the early 70's. The cops were eager to get a M19 that needed no maintenance. Most LE 66's were shot very little, and then with 38's. My first m66 was $123, complete with all SS sights in 1974. Later when departments went to shooting magnums for training, did problems arise. The K magnums were simply not up to a constant diet of 357 magnums, especially the 125 gr loads, hence the introduction of the L frame guns in the early 80's. Every M66 I've shot was a terrific shooter, particularly the 3" guns and I carried a M66 6" on the road as a duty gun for years. If you can find one in mint condition, snap it up. You'll find the 617 makes a perfect understeady for it. Bob!!

[18DAI]

The pre lock 66's just might be the finest revolvers to come out of S&W.

I currently own thirteen 66's in various barrel lengths and in 66 no dash through 66-4 variants. My favorite revolver......well......my favorite handgun, period.

I have shot many thousands of rounds through my 66's over the last forty years of buying and being issued them. Probably over fifty different individual 66's. One, a 4 inch 66-2 had over 25000 rounds through it before I got it from its former owner. He was a Chicago police officer who carried it on duty for over a decade.

I've yet to have a single problem with any 66. Not one failure to go bang. Not one high primer. Not one uncsrewed ejector rod. Not one cracked forcing cone. No stretched topstraps. I submit that my experience is far from extraordinary, but rather the norm.

Fellow member Sebago Son has a very nice 66 that has tens of thousands of round through it too. His experience mirrors mine. Hopefully he will see your thread.

Keep your 66 clean. Keep the forcing cone and barrel free of lead and carbon buildup. Avoid the old 110 grain and 125 grain 357 screamers. I shoot 158 grain Speer Gold Dot 357's. Do these things and your grand children will be enjoying the 66 you pass on to them.

My experience with the 66's accuracy is that it is target/bullseye gun accurate. Last weekend a new to me 4 inch 66-3 printed all six rounds of WWB into under an inch at 15 yards. A perfect cloverleaf containing six shots.

The triggers were great right out of the box - S&W still made nice triggers back then, as well as fine revolvers. The triggers also get better the more you shoot them. My advice to you is to find a pre lock 66, buy it, shoot it, love it! Good luck! Regards 18DAI

[M3Stuart]

What, no pictures?

I have the 66-4 in 2.5". I put Hogue Magnas on it. It and my 686-4 are my favorite guns.

Buy one. You can't go wrong. Period.

[OKFC05]

It is a supposedly the smoothest shooting of the K frame .357 revolvers.

The model 19 has the same lockwork.

I shoot a model 66 in IDPA because the barrel sits a bit lower than a 686, and because my favorite grips put the 686 right on the IDPA weight limit (some match scales aren't that accurate).

However, it took a lot of work ( $ )to get the used model 66 in shape for match use, and to be as smooth as my well-used 686 that was also set up for IDPA.
In my opinion, the potential for a model 66 is maybe better than a 686, but just buying a used model 66 does not guarantee it.

[lhump1961]

I will simply confirm what is posted. I currently have three 66's and one model 19. Great looking, accurate and dependable. All the chatter about using .357 loads in K frames is a bit overblown as proven by the fact that after years of service the 19's and 66's are still shooting! I have never seen a 66 with any of the issues that so many claim. Yes, anything lighter than 158gr .357 loads are tougher on 'em...but that is true of ALL revolvers. I don't even shoot the 125gr loads in my 686 because I see no reason to punish it when the 147 or 158 grain loads produce plenty of velocity and energy, way more than any 9mm, 40's and most 45ACP loads! Having said that I shoot a lot of 38+P in my 357's because, let's face it, the 357 is a handful and the +P is a great all around load for 357's IMHO. (When I carry I use 158gr .357 hollow points).

You would be hard pressed to find many around here to say anything bad about a K frame, and who would know better? Someone here said that if you were to graph all the key factors in a revolver...power, dependability, shoot-ability, carry-ability, (add your own here)...these lines would intersect at the S&W model 66.

[LL617]

Thank you for all your replies and for your quick responses. I have a couple of questions because I don't understand what you are referring to. In discussing the loads of the cartridges, lhump1961 states that "anything lighter than 158gr .357 loads are tougher on 'em..." and 18DAI said to avoid the "110 and 125 grain screamers." Although new to shooting, I do know that the outside of the ammo box lists the grains loaded in each individual cartridge. However,I thought lighter loads were the preferred loads because they have less explosive force than the heavier gram loads.


Secondly, who or what is the LE that Roadranger refers to?

Your comments make me eager to try and find a model 66 and to try it out. I will also be looking for Speer Gold Dot 357's and a suitable self-defense round that is not too explosive.

Thanks. I look forward to any other comments that folks have.

[dwpmusic]

I've only had my M66-2 for a couple of weeks now. I've put 400 rounds through it and it is a pleasure to shoot. I'll only say the it would be unlikely that you would be disappointed with one. It has just about convinced me that even I can shoot, which I really can't, but it's accuracy to hit where you aim is amazing and the trigger is excellent. Buy it.

[PERAZZI]

LE=law enforcement

I use a 66-1 6"bbl for indoor PPC competition. The accuracy is the equal of the custom jobs.

[getoff]

my 66 no dash was made before the lighter, hotter .357 rounds of the 80's and 90's. i shoot only 158 gr. in mine and it has had alot of them down the pipe. supposedly the lighter, hotter .357 stuff will contribute to flame cutting on the top strap. don't know if this is true, but i wont risk ruining one of my favorites to cheaper ammo. another issue is build up in the cylinder from .38 ammo. i ahve noticed in another .357(wont mention the mfg. ('cause it ain't S&W) it gets dirty as heck, and i have to solvent, wire brush the heck out of it after a 200 round range session. just my 2 cents...

[OKFC05]

Although new to shooting, I do know that the outside of the ammo box lists the grains loaded in each individual cartridge. However,I thought lighter loads were the preferred loads because they have less explosive force than the heavier gram loads.

Totally wrong..
We're talking about the weight of the bullet; THAT's what's listed on the box of ammunition.
You have no way of knowing what powder is loaded, nor how much.
The manufacturer loads to a velocity level using whatever powder he chooses for that batch.
Go to the manufacturers' web site for the specific load MV.

[lhump1961]

I am not an expert but here's my understanding...

The lighter loads have less to do with the grain weight than is does the physical difference when firing. The 158gr bullet is longer than the 125gr bullet which in turn makes the cartridge slightly longer. When the 158gr is fired the slightly longer bullet will meet the forcing cone before the very hot gases from the powder escape the cylinder. This pushes more of the corrosive residues and heat out through the cylinder gap and keeps the impact point of the forcing cone cooler and cleaner. In the case of the shorter bullets the residue and gases actually beat the bullet to the forcing cone (the shorter bullet isn't there yet) and expose the area to more heat and wear. The more you shoot the more build up of heat and residue you get on the forcing cone causing more wear. This would be true on any .357 revolver, but since the 66 has a small cutout at the bottom of the forcing cone (to allow for the cylinder to close on a slightly smaller frame) this action attacks directly what might be considered a "vulnerable" area. This is why you see more erosion at the forcing cone on a gun that has shot lots of light, hot loads.

Others may chime in and school me on this but that is my understanding.

[OKFC05]

Others may chime in and school me on this but that is my understanding.

That's part of it, and there are a couple of other factors.
Powder: If you pile in a max charge of 296 behind a 125gr bullets, there's more hot gas to do the cutting than what you can safely put behind a heavier bullet.
Bullet speed at the forcing cone: A max load behind a light bullet makes it hit the forcing cone faster than a heavier bullet would. Like hitting it with a hammer, it can cause cracking.

A 125gr bullet loaded to a moderate speed with a medium powder causes no more problems than shooting a standard 158gr load.
It's the firecracker hot stuff that kills guns.

[18DAI]

Except for some Corbon loads.......and maybe some "botique" 357's any factory 357 will not hurt a pre lock 66. Current production 357 ammunition is not loaded as hot as it was in days past.

I have fired a case of Remington 125 grain 357 Golden Sabre through my K-frame magnums, including my 66 snubs, without ill affect. I personally prefer the Speer Gold Dot 158 grain 357 due to its ballistics and effect on the recieving end of the round.

Shooting 357's is not for everybody though -noise/flash/recoil........or optimum in every situation.......such as indoors in crowds. These days there are some very effective factory 38+P loads. These are easy to shoot and very accurate with impressive performance. I like the Speer 135 grain 38+P short barrel ammunition and frequently carry it in my 2.5" 66-2.......and sometimes in my 4 inch 66's. It is low flash and I do not find the recoil objectionable. It is a VERY accurate load in my experience as well.

In any case, get a round for your 66 that you can shoot accurately with fast accurate follow up shots as well. Then go practice! Regards 18DAI

[AveragEd]

I've told this story on here before but perhaps it bears repeating.

Back in 1974, I bought my first handgun, a 4" Model 19 with the "3Ts." I was a young and dumb handloader who felt that I should load 'em to the max so they were the most effective. I didn't stray out of the book and used slower-burning powders, so I'm sure all of it didn't burn in the gun. I guess that was a good thing.

It wasn't long before fired casings were difficult to extract. First, they were sticky. Then it became painful to the hand to push on the extractor rod. Finally, I used a punch and small mallet on each case. Eventually, it occurred to me that this probably wasn't normal so I sent it back to Smith & Wesson for repairs. They replaced the cylinder, saying that the chambers were no longer round.

I gave up on the handloads and bought genune Smith & Wesson 125-grain factory loads in the old blue and white boxes. A few months later, the difficult extraction started again. S&W replaced the cylinder again under warranty but sent a letter along saying they would not do so a third time and that I should tone down the ammo a notch. I called, asking why the gun had "S&W .357 Magnum" on the barrel if it couldn't shoot that ammo and a nice man educated me on the different .357 loadings.

Ed

[nipster]

I have two of them, a 66-1 and a 66-2. Both are great. I have both with Pachmayr rubber combat grips which I prefer when shooting, although I occasionally shoot them with the wood grips.

As far as ammo, around here anyway, it's not too hard to find 158 gr fmj ammo for target shooting, I usually use fiocchi or if I can find it in Walmart, Remington 158 gr FMJ. I try to avoid the lead loads because they are dirtier to clean usually. I would say I shoot 65%/35% 38 special, usually Remington 158 gr FMJ in 38 spc. It's a little cheaper.

When I carry it, and when it's around the house for self defense, it's always got Remington Golden Sabre 125 gr JHP in it.

[MTKTM]

I find it curious that S&W discontinued the K frame 357s because they were supposedly too "light" for full charge ammo, while at the same time marketing a pile of different J-frames chambered in that same caliber. ??

[cjtraining]

The 2 1/2" was my carry gun before my agency went to bottom feeders. I loved to carry and shoot it. I bought the 6" at a LGS at a good price and because I thought it was kewl.

[Badquaker]

It's no wonder that 66's are becoming very hard to find. It seems certain jack wagons are hoarding them.

My first wife took my only 66 with her when we divorced....damn I miss that gun.

[Dennis The B]

The 125gr load, started by the Winchester 125gr JHP, was developed several years after the development of the K frame magnum revolvers.

Because the 125 grain bullet load held more powder (probably WW296), that powder caused three problems:

• Top strap flame cutting
• Forcing cone erosion
• Development of excessive end shake

The additional, hot powder flame cut the top strap more than the heavier loads which use less powder. This flame cutting only went so far, and seems to max out well before fatally weakening the frame.

The amount of powder and not the length of the bullet is what created the forcing cone erosion and weakening of it. The powder is behind the bullet, causing the problem. Also the forcing cone on K frames is cut, so the the cylinder yoke assembly will clear the forcing cone when closing the revolver. Removing so much material weakens the forcing cone.

The higher velocity 125 grain bullet also creates end shake (front-to-back cylinder movement) to the cylinder.

The K frame was designed as a .38 caliber, not .357 Magnum, revolver. S&W designed the revolver in the mid-1950's for police officers not wanting the heavy weight of an N frame for carrying everyday. Even though the frames were specially heat treated, It was not designed for day in and day out heavy magnum loads. In addition, the lighter 125 grain loads didn't come into existence until several years after the Combat Magnum (Model 19) was created.

There are well-documented stories of police agencies having their officers practice with .38 Specials, and carry the Magnum loads for duty. There is also ample documentation that some agencies went so far as to return Model 19/66's to S&W, and the company replaced them with Model 28's.

The birth of the L frame was the solution to the issue.

I understand that there are lots of folks who have carried K frames on duty for years with no problems, but the three points I made above, are documented heavily in both print and the web.

[Sebago Son]

This 66-2 is the one 18 DAI is referring to. It was the issue of an old friend of mine who rose through the ranks from a Patrolman to Chief with this gun in his holster for alot of his career. He was a real "Gun Guy". When his PD retired revolvers and went to SiG226's the 66's were surplussed through my shop. I kept this one for myself.



It has a documented in-service round count of more than 13,000 Federal 125 Grain JHP Magnums. This load was at the top of the heap performance wise.



After I got it the only thing I did was replace the cylinder stop and refit a new hand. Not because the gun wouldn't function or was inaccurate, but rather because I wanted to bring it back to zero spec. I also converted it to a round but from a square.



In the 20 odd years since I brought it home it has seen untold numbers of handloads both .38 and .357 without any trouble. Out of the hundreds of revolvers I own it remains my favorite .357 for the field. It has by far the best trigger and is the most accurate of my field guns. The only gun I have that comes close is a 6" scope sighted Model 19.

Drew

[JAREDSHS]

Originally Posted by MTKTM

I find it curious that S&W discontinued the K frame 357s because they were supposedly too "light" for full charge ammo, while at the same time marketing a pile of different J-frames chambered in that same caliber. ??

MTKTM-----I think the same exact thoughts when I see all the "new"
lightweight J frames that S&W has. I havent seen a 19 or a 66 yet that
dosent look more robust and strong as the new stuff.

[stantheman86]

I have 2 66's, a 2.5" 66-2 made in 1989 and a 4" 66-7 made in 2003 or so. I would not part with either of them. Say what you will about the new IL S&W's but my 66-7 outshot the Dan Wesson M15 I used to have.

[Smithhound]

I've got a NIB 6 inch 66 that I've had for years now, I've been sorely tempted to wring it out but just can't bring myself to fire it. It shows just three chambers with powder fouling and is clean as a whistle, I've got several other .357's to fire so this one has sat unused. I just may have to break down and take this one to the range. Maybe.
RD

[TDC]

This is the best thread related to the K frame 357 Mags I've seen. Lots of very knowledgable people addressing all the pertinate information invaluable to a new shooter/K frame 357 buyer.

A Mod 66 in any preferred barrel length is the model most commonly recommended by those who truly know it benefits, idiosyncrasies and few shortcomings.

It's a shame the 19's and 66's were discontinued. Properly maintained and with proper ammo they in any dash number were the best...

Excellent thread, guys....

[lhump1961]

Originally Posted by Smithhound

I've got a NIB 6 inch 66 that I've had for years now, I've been sorely tempted to wring it out but just can't bring myself to fire it. It shows just three chambers with powder fouling and is clean as a whistle, I've got several other .357's to fire so this one has sat unused. I just may have to break down and take this one to the range. Maybe.
RD

If you don't shoot it then someone else at some point probably will! But I understand your hesitation. I have a 19-3 2 1/2" with such a beautiful blue finish that I don't shoot it although it is not an unfired gun, just not fired much. As with you I have others I can shoot. I really only have the 19 because it is so good lookin'! If that is where your 66 lies...then so be it!

[chud333]

I'm fortunate to have a 66-3 with 3" bbl
It's one of those guns that will never leave my possession.
i cut my teeth on a model 19 blued 6" when i was just a pup.
I shot hundreds and hundreds of full bore .357 loads through it
not knowing any better. It never gave me any problems and shot
lights out if i did my part. My 3" 66 is also an excellent shooter
but i've refrained from feeding it a steady diet of full bore .357's
It is my favorite "shooter" and gets .38+P's remington 125 gr
most of the time but i do shoot some 158 gr. .357 loads from time
to time.


chuck

[lhump1961]

Originally Posted by chud333

I'm fortunate to have a 66-3 with 3" bbl
It's one of those guns that will never leave my possession.
i cut my teeth on a model 19 blued 6" when i was just a pup.
I shot hundreds and hundreds of full bore .357 loads through it
not knowing any better. It never gave me any problems and shot
lights out if i did my part. My 3" 66 is also an excellent shooter
but i've refrained from feeding it a steady diet of full bore .357's
It is my favorite "shooter" and gets .38+P's remington 125 gr
most of the time but i do shoot some 158 gr. .357 loads from time
to time.


chuck

I have the same 66-3 3" and treat it exactly the same as you...but that is how I shoot all of my .357's including my 686. I see no need to run a gun with the harshest ammo all the time. All the talk about how the light hot .357 loads wear out the 66's also rings true to any other revolver...it's just harder on them! I am not afraid to put 158gr .357 in my 66's or my 19 (and do!) but I enjoy shooting the +P's more.

[billj47]

This is my favorite also. Just a fine weapon. Here it is with two different grips that I like.

[Stainz]

My only 66 is a 6" - actually, from the last batch made 12/2002 as a 66-6. I bought it new on closeout from a Texas closeout dealer for $350 + $10 S&H 9/2003 - a deal even then. The last 66's produced were the 4" 66-7's in 2003. I put a HiViz sight on it as well as Ahrends cocobolo square conversion grips and some lightened effort Wolff springs. The hottest ammo it - or any of my .357 Magnums - sees is the .38 Special +P 158gr LHPSWC Remington R38S12 round. Oh, sure, I load thousands of .357 Magnum cases - with wimpy 125gr JHP to 158gr bullets. I am happy at the lower level and feel those +P's are all I need for protection. To be blunt - my 6" 66 is mainly a plinker - and I expect a long life from it.



All platitudes aside, my 6" 66 was all but replaced in plinking - and Steel Plate Challenge - use just over a year later with a 5" half lug 686P 7-shooter, which came from the factory with the same grips and front sight. It, too, would be replaced by a mix of PC627 8-shooter's, culminating in my all time favorite - the 2 5/8" PC627 UDR. None see real .357 Magnums here - but that's me. Why do I keep the 6" 66? Pick up a properly, ie, wood, gripped 66 - be it 2.5", 4", or 6"... they just fit the hand and feel great!

Sorry, I just had to give my propers to a 6" 66-6, complete with MIM parts and an Internal Lock. It has been 100% dependable - fine revolver.

Stainz

[Avery11]

Originally Posted by 18DAI

I currently own thirteen 66's ...

That's nothin. I have over 250 air guitars and another on the way!

[18DAI]

Keep in mind that the 66-3 and 66-4 incorporated durability enhancements to prevent endshake. Regards 18DAI