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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 04-17-2012, 07:49 PM
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Default Annual Qualifications

It's that time of year again when we have to qualify with our duty guns. This year I left all the new fangled semi-autos at home and left with the old reliables.
This was fired with my 686 no dash SSR

This one was with the 646:

and this one with my old flat-latch model 36:

Here's the old hardware:

and,

Do you guys think I need to go back to autos?
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Old 04-17-2012, 07:54 PM
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Nah... stick to the wheelies!
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:06 PM
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Great work!
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:07 PM
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I say stay with the wheel gun
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:09 PM
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My qualifications are next week...I'm gonna shoot my new 66 2.5" and 638. I'll do my Sig P228 too for sh%#s & giggles. Nothing wrong with a wheel gun. Guys at work give me **** all day long about carrying my 686 2.5" but they get showed up at the range :-)
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:13 PM
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Just out of curiosity what was the distance and the course of fire?
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:37 PM
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Our POSTC course, 25, 15, 7 and 5 yards.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:40 PM
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Surprised they let you qualify with something other than your primary duty weapon... doesnt that defeat the purpose?
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:51 PM
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Surprised they let you qualify with something other than your primary duty weapon... doesnt that defeat the purpose?
My Dept qualified with off-duty handguns also. Although my Dept transitioned to Glocks while was COP at a period of time when officers supplied their own handguns and the city agreed to supply duty weapons at the urging of the liability insurance carrier, I'd get calls panic calls from the Dept in the middle of the night saying get down there as fast as possible, I always grabbed my S&W Model 10 .38 Sp like the one I qualified as expert with at the FBI National Academy, Quantico, Va.
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Old 04-17-2012, 08:54 PM
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Nice shooting with both camera and revolvers
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:01 PM
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My Dept qualified with off-duty handguns also. Although my Dept transitioned to Glocks while was COP at a period of time when officers supplied their own handguns and the city agreed to supply duty weapons at the urging of the liability insurance carrier, I'd get calls panic calls from the Dept in the middle of the night saying get down there as fast as possible, I always grabbed my S&W Model 10 .38 Sp like the one I qualified as expert with at the FBI National Academy, Quantico, Va.
The fact that they let you doesnt mean it's the right thing to do. If your primary service weapon is a glock, you should be qualifying on it. At least around here, most departments have policies which require it, and also require you to only carry approved weapons (and specific ammo) as your primary.

Not trying to be argumentative or anything, but people have died by not being familiar and proficient with their primary duty weapon and ammo. Regardless of what kind of shot they are with their favorite gun.

Quite a few friends of mine were pissed when their departments switched from revolvers to autos or from 45's to glocks in 40 or 9 in the 90's, but it is what it is.

I'm pretty sure you wouldnt have any problems making those same shots with a glock or whatever auto your department makes you use.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:08 PM
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Good shooting, ... especially with the snubby.

Jerry
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:13 PM
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Surprised they let you qualify with something other than your primary duty weapon... doesnt that defeat the purpose?
What makes you think its not my primary duty weapon. I carry the 686 almost every day.

Thanks J38. I wanted to make Efrem Zimbalist Jr. proud.

And yes, I could be certainly classified as an old timer.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:17 PM
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What makes you think its not my primary duty weapon. I carry the 686 almost every day.
That's great if they let you. Most (at least around here) wont let you anymore.
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:24 PM
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"And yes, I could be certainly classified as an old timer."
Palmetto Sharpshooter,
Looks like you've got a bit of time around this Forum too. Very nice shooting.
Tks, Kevin
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Old 04-17-2012, 09:47 PM
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Was passing thru OKC airport a couple of years ago. Saw a deputy with a revolver and asked him if it was a 66. He said no, it's a 4" 65 and that he beats the pants off the youngsters with their bottom feeders on qual day.

Age and treachery will overcome youth and skill.

S/F,

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Old 04-17-2012, 10:06 PM
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First off, nice shooting!

Second: Are those Federal Nyclads I spy in your speedloader and speed strips?


I've been carrying a Glock on duty since 1995 and always qualify High Expert / Master (typically 486-494, depending on the year and if I got new prescriptions in my glasses or not), but I still shoot my 686 better than my Glock on any given day. I think it's the fixed barrel/frame/sights relationship making the gun inherently more accurate. My first qualification year (1989) I shot back-to-back 600/600 quals (different course back then - 60 shots) with that same 686. 'Course I was younger and had sharper eyes back then, but no one has managed to beat me on the department yet...
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:27 PM
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First off, nice shooting!

Second: Are those Federal Nyclads I spy in your speedloader and speed strips?
Yes sir, they are but just for the J-frame. I use the old Treasury load for the L-frame. For the qualification course, I just used some 158 grain round nose loaded with 3.6 grains of Bullseye.

I carried a PC-5906 for many years but recently passed it down for an heirloom. Before the 5906, I carried a Beretta 92F and before that, a 586 or back further, a Python. Old habits die hard, huh? I've been playing with the 686 in IDPA for about a year and enjoy the way folks look at my old technology. I usually hold my own with it but you really have to use your brain with a wheelgun.

I hadn't even fired a pistol in about six months. This wasn't by choice. I was out of town for a few months. I was really worried about how I would shoot. I haven't shot less than 100% with any handgun in many years and have a reputation to defend. I shot the 686 first. From 25 yards, I was producing a nice tight group even though my eyes aren't so good anymore, until my mind drifted. This isn't an old age problem. I've always drifted while shooting. So here's how that works; front sight, front sight, nice trigger pull repeat, then wonder what's for lunch? So, two shots went a little high. Then at the 15 yard line, trying to speed up, I jerked the two low shots. Even so, it was a 100. The .40 revolver is a little different; more recoil and combating the flinch. Even so, another 100. The last one was the Chief Special. Even though its a 5-shot, you still have the same time limits. So you spend less time shooting and more time reloading but another 100. I may go qualify with my other PC-5906 later but carrying the old wheelies really freaks some people out.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:38 PM
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I have to qualify twice a year with my company-issued M-64, mine has the best trigger I've ever pulled on a stock revolver, and if I don't shoot a perfect score (at 7 and 15 yards) it means I'm stationed under a light that blurs my sights. If I step back out of the light it's a LOT easier to see the sights, and I generally shoot a 485/500 or better. I have new shooting glasses this year, and if I don't shoot a perfect score I'm going to be REALLY upset!
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:47 PM
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Very nice shooting! Out of curiosity, what is the Ruskie badge in the photo with the Model 36?
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:58 PM
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My last primary duty weapon was a S&W 625 .45 acp. I shot with the bottomfeeders and generally could out reload them as I used full moon clips and practiced an awfull lot as my life depended on it. I used to be teased ref. to the revolver but that usually stopped after the smoke cleared. I will state that if I were working today I would opt for a Glock as times have changed as has the bad guys proficiancy with weapons as well as the quality of their weapons.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
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That's great if they let you. Most (at least around here) wont let you anymore.

dang nip...guess you didn't have a chance to review their policy book before you posted huh?
LOLOLOL!
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:56 PM
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We are required to qualify with our Glock and it is the only approved weapon to carry in our holster on a duty belt while in uniform. We have an off duty and back up Q courses. Off duty is the full course and back up is 15 yds and closer. ex: Kimber off duty, LCP backup
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:29 PM
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Not to brag, but I can do what you did there. Easy. I do have problems with people saying they never actually see me shoot. Then there are all the questions about the powder burns on the targets. I have to keep explaining over and over that it's just the bullets fragmenting when they hit bugs and such on the way down range. GO FIGURE.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:40 PM
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Very nice shooting! Out of curiosity, what is the Ruskie badge in the photo with the Model 36?
Thanks and I don't know what the badge is. I coached their team when it came over in 1994. This was one the items they gave me. I would have posted a photo of the vodka they brought but it is long gone.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:11 AM
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That's great if they let you. Most (at least around here) wont let you anymore.
And the "most" didn't make this decision on a whim. I've posted this before, but some may have missed it, so I'll post it again here.

"Revolvers vs Semi-Automatic Pistols for Police Service"


Let me begin by stating that I love revolvers, but, the fact is, the revolver's day is over as the best choice for a service weapon.

I retired from the New Jersey State Police in 1991, so I was around during our transition from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols with over half my career being in the revolver era. The last two incidents in which Jersey Troopers were shot while armed with revolvers (and which prompted our switch to the H&K P7M8 in 1982) both involved lone troopers facing assailants (in one case, multiple assailants) armed with high-capacity semi-automatic pistols. Both troopers emptied their six-shooters and both were shot and incapacitated (one seriously wounded and Trooper Phil Lamonaco fatally wounded) before they were able to reload.

It is fun to wax nostalgic about the "good old days" of revolvers, but any advantages they may have are far outweighed by the cold facts that their ammunition capacity is minimal and they are just too slow to reload under fire compared to the semi-automatic pistol. It is a virtual certainty that as a police officer today, if you have the misfortune of facing armed criminals, you will be facing one or more assailants armed with high-capacity semi-automatic pistols. No matter how proficient you may be with a revolver, this is not a good situation to be in.

I would no more want to be a police officer armed with a revolver in today's world than I would want to be armed with an '03 Springfield bolt-action rifle in a modern combat environment. The term "under-gunned" describes a real world situation and it is for valid, life-and-death reasons why today's police forces are almost universally armed with semi-automatic pistols.

The new Smith & Wesson 7 and 8 shot revolvers help to level the playing field a bit, but if I were to put on the uniform again, I would be holstering my Heckler & Koch P30LS .40 S&W or some other tried and true semi-automatic pistol.

***Note***
Please don't view this as a criticism of anyone's decision to carry a revolver. It isn't. We are all adults here and we all make our own choices for our own reasons. I am simply stating that I strongly believe the professional law enforcement officer is best served and most capable of protecting themselves and the citizens they are sworn to protect by arming themselves with a high quality semi-automatic pistol.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:23 AM
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Palmetto Shooter: Love your choice in wheelguns, especially that early, flat-latch snubbie which brings back lots of memories.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:35 AM
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Spray and Pray with a high capacity autoloader is not the way to win a gunfight and places non-involved persons at risk. Tactics and marksmanship are more effective skills. Alas, my touting of these radical ideas served to have me banished from the pistol range to instructing on everyone's favorite LE firearm, the shotgun.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:30 AM
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I started in 1975, with a wheelgun of course. I still think they are viable service weapons. On duty was a Model 10 and off was a Colt Diamondback. Then a Model 58. Now in my "later years" I am lucky that my Chief is a died in the wool 1911 fan. Thats what I carry. I qualify with it and my 442 backup. Yes I have Glocks, Berettas, S&Ws but a 1911 in my hand is perfect.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:39 AM
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How do you get by shooting 3.6 of Bullseye? I carry 686 for my duty weapon and use 357 145 Silvertip's. For qualification I load 158 grain with 8.5 grs of 800X. Never shot perfect but always in the 200's out of 250.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:48 AM
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Default Annual HR-218 Qualifications

Now that all the confusion/wording was straightened out up here last year allowing us to get our HR-218 certification cards, I will be qualifying each June. Last year when I qualified, I used my old duty gun, a 4" no dash Model 66. I was the only one using a revolver in the entire group. I do own alot of automatics, and have nothing against them, but you can't beat a revolver. Simple to use, almost no mechanical problems, and they shoot where you point them, as long as your sights are in alignment. I say to Palmetto Sharpshooter, stick with a revolver.
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Old 04-19-2012, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
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Spray and Pray with a high capacity autoloader is not the way to win a gunfight and places non-involved persons at risk. Tactics and marksmanship are more effective skills.
Other than stating the obvious, I don't understand the point of this statement. I know you can't possibly be claiming that everyone who carries a "high capacity" semi-automatic weapon is, by nature, a "spray and pray" shooter. If you are a skilled and disciplined shooter before you pick up a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, you'll remain a skilled and disciplined shooter; the weapon type won't change this. As in most cases, proper training is the key.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:16 PM
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Being a retired trooper myself, I agree with X trooper about it being a killing field in the real world. I started in 1974 with a revolver, a M66, just like everbody else. Since being retired, I have no departmental regulations and usually use a different gun each year to quailify. This year, April 8, I used a M657 41 Magnum, 4" just because I could with light magnum 170 gr. Sierra bullets. My real world go to gun is a P226 in 357Sig or 9mm. I keep a Mossberg 590 under the back seat in my Z71 just in case. Bob!
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:30 PM
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You are so lucky, My agency just banned me from carrying revolvers last year as none of the instructors know about revolvers and they are afraid that no one can use my gun and reload it if I get hurt. I say you are a lucky man to still be able to carry a revolver. I am now stuck to only carry my Glock 22 "which I think are the worst guns in the world! MAN I HATE GLOCKS!!!" I was carrying my 625 and 19 as duty and back up gun...Last year I even got to carry my model 544 in 44-40...
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexer View Post
Not to brag, but I can do what you did there. Easy. I do have problems with people saying they never actually see me shoot. Then there are all the questions about the powder burns on the targets. I have to keep explaining over and over that it's just the bullets fragmenting when they hit bugs and such on the way down range. GO FIGURE.
Faulty ammo would be my guess, however, shooting in bright sunlight will cause the shiny bullets to reflect and scorch the target as they pass through.
I'm just sayin', it's pretty common...
...especially if the loser buys lunch.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:55 PM
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You are so lucky, My agency just banned me from carrying revolvers last year as none of the instructors know about revolvers and they are afraid that no one can use my gun and reload it if I get hurt. I say you are a lucky man to still be able to carry a revolver. I am now stuck to only carry my Glock 22 "which I think are the worst guns in the world! MAN I HATE GLOCKS!!!" I was carrying my 625 and 19 as duty and back up gun...Last year I even got to carry my model 544 in 44-40...
One of my favorite practical excersises as an FI was to stage several different types of handguns and long guns at various shooting positions on the tactical range. The shooter would approach a position, take cover and engage the target as best they could. Some shooters were very familiar with all types of firearms and some were not. The wise ones did what they could with what they had and moved to another position if they chose not to pick up a firearm that they were not familiar with. Every shooter managed to learn something about themselves on that course.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:29 PM
Broadside Broadside is offline
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However; the FBI's Uniform Crime Report stats for the past 50 years still shows the average law enforcement gun fight is fast, up close, in low light, with less than 3 shots fired.
MOONDAWG - I'm confused by what you are saying here. Are you citing a 50-year average, or are you citing an annual average and saying it is unchanged over the past 50 years?
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:52 PM
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Our semi-annual qualification is in May. All but three of us carry Glock 22s. Our boss carries a Nighthawk .45 ACP. Bill and I carry issued pre-lock/pre-MIM S&W Model 686-1s.

Last year, with a 96% I beat everyone except the boss with my 6-shooter. The course of fire is 25 rounds from 25 (6 rds), 15 (2 rds), 7 (4 rds), 5 (4 rds), 3 (6 rds), and 1 (3 rds) yards. We qualify with service ammo, and the .357 Magnum ammo is Remington 125 grain Golden Saber.

This year I'm just coming off a surgical absence, so we'll see.

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Old 04-19-2012, 06:25 PM
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Other than stating the obvious, I don't understand the point of this statement. I know you can't possibly be claiming that everyone who carries a "high capacity" semi-automatic weapon is, by nature, a "spray and pray" shooter. If you are a skilled and disciplined shooter before you pick up a semi-automatic or automatic weapon, you'll remain a skilled and disciplined shooter; the weapon type won't change this. As in most cases, proper training is the key.
It would appear enough of "us" are when you consistently see headlines like OFFICERS FIRE 98 ROUNDS, GUNMAN SUFFERS 3 MINOR INJURIES.

What I am saying is do not let the plethora of ammo in your pistol and on your belt lull you into a false sense of invulnerability.

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Old 04-19-2012, 08:27 PM
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It would appear enough of "us" are when you consistently see headlines like OFFICERS FIRE 98 ROUNDS, GUNMAN SUFFERS 3 MINOR INJURIES.

What I am saying is do not let the plethora of ammo in your pistol and on your belt lull you into a false sense of invulnerability.
Or sometimes they just do it because they can.

Florida Police Shot Suspected Cop Killer 68 Times | Fox News
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:18 PM
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MOONDAWG - I'm confused by what you are saying here. Are you citing a 50-year average, or are you citing an annual average and saying it is unchanged over the past 50 years?
What he is trying to say is that from 1940's to the 1980s while law enforcement was using revolvers the average officer shot 2 rounds during a fire fight to take out the bad guy..As semi autos were introduced into the law enforcement scene the national average creeped up. Now the average officer will shoot 5 to 7.
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Old 04-19-2012, 09:25 PM
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Just shot my qualifications last week also. As an R.P.O. I qualify with my Kimber .45acp and S&W M60 twice a year on the same courses of fire required of active duty officers, ( 1 yd. to 25 yd.). I admit to carrying the M60 the majority of the time.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:02 AM
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I carried a revolver from 1973, to 1990. It served its purpose, more than once. Yeah, it was a Colt Python, and .357 125 gr. Remington JHP. From 1990 til retirement, in 2003, I carried a 10 mm. No, it was not a S&W 610. It was a Colt Delta Elite, then a S&W 1006, and 1026, then a Glock 20, and a Glock 29. Nothing I owned out shot the Python, but, the Colt Delta Elite tied in one time, on a possible.
Now, all i have to do is qual once a year to keep my retired status up. Its pretty simple with the Sig P229, in .357 Sig, and I do have the .40 S&W barrel too.
It kinda whatever mood I am in, on what caliber I use. Yup, still have the S&W 1026, the Colt Delta Elite, and the Glock 29. Trouble is, the Sig just fits me better. Really liking the Sig. .357. Doesn't kick, and ballistics like what saved my life a couple of times. Gotta go with XTrooper. I lived through the transition. If I have to go where the fire is hot, and the target isn't a big fuzzy, I will go with the auto.
But, the days of being a motorcop, with nothing more than a 1200 eletra glide, and my Python, with 18 rounds total, and a butt load of confidence sure brings back fond memories.
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Old 04-20-2012, 01:09 AM
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That's great if they let you. Most (at least around here) wont let you anymore.
+1

I did everything including begging my boss to let me carry my 66 but he said .40 or nothing
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:38 AM
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It would appear enough of "us" are when you consistently see headlines like OFFICERS FIRE 98 ROUNDS, GUNMAN SUFFERS 3 MINOR INJURIES.

What I am saying is do not let the plethora of ammo in your pistol and on your belt lull you into a false sense of invulnerability.
I totally agree. Lots of ammo doesn't equal invulnerability.

My point was that headlines like the one you describe are indicative of a training problem and not one of weapon type.
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by panamajack310 View Post
What he is trying to say is that from 1940's to the 1980s while law enforcement was using revolvers the average officer shot 2 rounds during a fire fight to take out the bad guy..As semi autos were introduced into the law enforcement scene the national average creeped up. Now the average officer will shoot 5 to 7.
I don't have any stats to back this up, but I strongly suspect that the number of rounds being fired in the direction of officers has also climbed significantly. This would naturally have an effect on the return fire count.
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:18 AM
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Wow! I didn't mean to start a debate. I just wanted to "show off" my guns and what my tired old eyes can still do, just a little.

I'm not an expert here for sure. But in fact, I think when it comes to actual gunfighting there are none; because only a fool would seek to do that and eventually your number will come up. I've only been in one and only fired two shots with a high-cap semi-auto. I was 50% there and was not the only one firing. I really don't want to say more than that because I don't like to talk about it for several reasons that I will not discuss.

As for guns, whatever your competent and comfortable with is fine by me. I've seen folks killed with all kinds of stuff from .12 gauges at point blank to a sponge mop (literally). I'm not as hung up on "this is the perfect weapon." While it certainly wouldn't be my choice, we had a local barber that took down two bad guys with a High Standard .22 Magnum derringer once.

After qualifications, our firearms instructor and I (BTW: I'm an instructor too) discussed revolvers versus semi-autos. Both of us came up in the old school of S&W M-10s and a Chief or Detective Special backup or nothing. We agree that police marksmanship appeared to be much better back then. We didn't have 45 rounds to miss with. You only had 18 plus your 5 or 6 shot back up. We did okay I think. Personally I think the streets were meaner back then too. I know for certain the homicide rate was much higher.

Sorry to cause controversy. I have a way of doing that...unfortunately. And yes, I do switch guns occasionally. You're just as likely to see me carrying a 4563, 4006 or 5906. My last time to discharge my weapon on duty was with a Glock 19 to dispatch a pit bull. I compete with the 686 and carry it for ceremonial purposes mostly. I will be carrying it today at work and will be confident with it.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:32 AM
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hello everyone new here i do have question for palmetto sharpshooter were did you get the grips on you 36.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:50 AM
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Nice shooting Palmetto Sharpshooter. NC changed a statute last December which enabled DA Investigators to carry anything they qualified with including revolvers and 1911's. Since 2008 revolvers had been prohibited. 1911's had been prohibited since 1995.

I added a 4 inch 66-2 and a 2.5 inch 66 to my S&W 3rd gen 45's and my 3913.

Next qualification is in May. I'm going to reduce the number of guns, but will keep a 2.5 inch 66-2 and a 640-1 BUG on my card.

Hard to beat the speed, power and accuracy of a good sixgun. Regards 18DAI
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:06 AM
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Nice shooting!
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