Model 642 lightweight using lead

[navihawk]

I saw this on a police forum about lightweight snubbies having problems using unjacketed ammo. has anyone found this to be a problem? here is the quote...

Originally Posted by another forum

Not all .38 snubbies are rated for +P ammunition and the super lightweight models are generally not recommended for use with un-jacketed (plain lead) bullets since the projectiles can move forward from the case under severe recoil and prevent the cylinder from turning, making the revolver about as dangerous as a rock of equivalent weight. I really don’t recommend .357 Magnum ammunition in small frame revolvers, you gain very little in terminal performance at a great cost in recoil, muzzle blast and a blinding muzzle flash - shoot .38 +P ammo and call it good.

[Pisgah]

It's true. Cast bullets, even when firmly crimped, are "slicker" than jacketed and are much more likely to creep forward in the case. I disagree about not gaining much with .357. The gain is substantial, even in snubs; but of course, it is harder to control. If you lack the hand strength, or just can't ride the considerable buck, stick to .38
+P.

[navihawk]

I have some semi wadcutters to use at the range. do you think they will be a problem?I also thought using regular .38 loads would be less stress on the revolver as well as my hand.

[MichiganScott]

Fire 4 out of 5 and check to see if the fifth load is starting to slip its crimp. Make your own decision after looking carefully for slippage.

I've heard that about using lead in J-Frames before. I use both light loaded semi-wadcutter handloads and 135gr WW white box for practice.

I carry WW 158gr SWCHP +P in the pistol and shoot a few cylinder loads each year. I have never had problems.

[The Tourist]

Any bullet can slip the crimp. The bullet isn't really moving, but the firearm is jumping sharply and violently away from the bullet.

The solution is tailoring your handload to the firearm. I had two 629s, one with a snub barrel. I didn't use Hercules Blue Dot or Alcan AL-8 in that model. It was how I found out about A/A #5.

I also had a snub 66 that was so picky about loads that it would not shoot anything but a linotype 158 grain bullet. I tried 110s and 125s and in one session never even hit the paper! The loads worked fine in a Python.

If the 642 is acting this way, check your roll crimp, try a heavier bullet and use a moderate amount of faster powder.

[jeeps]

All I shoot in 38spec is 158hard lead swc over 5grs. of Unique. I have fired 10's of thousands in several airwieghts and dozens of MP's and never had a bullet pull or misfire. Nice roll crimp and very accurate &powerfull general purpose round. Pure non-sense its a better than factory loads.

[M29since14]

What he is saying is consistent with factory recommendations - he just isn't saying it quite right. Whether you agree with him on using .357s in a 2-inch J-frame is another matter. The factory recommendations he mentions mainly apply to the 340PD and similar Airlite models in .357 - not so much to a 642.

[jeeps]

Yes shooting 357 mag in a airweight is next to useless in recoil and control in fast combat shooting. I like the 158swc and SWCHP P+ for duty.

[navihawk]

Thanks for the replies and clarification guys.

[WHS 5906]

Originally Posted by jeeps

Yes shooting 357 mag in a airweight is next to useless in recoil and control in fast combat shooting. I like the 158swc and SWCHP P+ for duty.

If there is more recoil it's for one reason only, the bullet is traveling faster out of the barrel. .357's leave the barrel with a significant increase in velocity over .38 p+. If they didn't you wouldn't be complaining about the recoil.

[Imaposer]

Originally Posted by WHS 5906

If there is more recoil it's for one reason only, the bullet is traveling faster out of the barrel. .357's leave the barrel with a significant increase in velocity over .38 p+. If they didn't you wouldn't be complaining about the recoil.

To an extent this is true based on the physics of the faster acceleration of the bullet. But with the really short barrels much of the potential of the .357 isn't realized since the acceleration period is relatively short, and is in fact wasted in the form of excessive flash and blast. I for one wonder if the advantage in terminal ballistics is really worth the trade-off in controllability, over a modern bullet that it designed to perform at +P velocities, like the Gold Dots. Just my thoughts.

[M3Stuart]

Short answer: No, I've never found it to be a problem.

About all I shoot anymore is reloaded 158gr LSWC with win231. Never had a problem. Never heard of anybody having a problem.

[Black_Sheep]

I have fired 1000+ LSWC handloads from my 642 with no issues so far...

[mbliss57]

There was a thread on here I saw awhile back that showed the velocities of.38 spl vs 357 mag in 2", 4" and 6" barrels.
I wish I could find it. The bottom line was this... all rounds lose some velocity in the snubby barrels vs the longer barrels.
So the .357 in a snub doesn't reach as high a velocity as a 4".
Same goes for a .38spl pr +P.
But... the .357 in the short barrels was still travelling significantly faster than any .38 spl or +P round. So to say it isn't worth the recoil is quite false if you can handle it. I have the 640 Pro series in .357 using S&W wood combat grips. I shot over 50 rounds through it the other night without any issues to my hands. Very accurate too.
I tried a 340PD and it was unmanageable. So the grips and weight of teh gun matter alot. I will try to find that thread and post it.

Here is one article using a 2.5" Model 19 as a test gun.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

also the 2 next 2 need to be read together which is hard as they are separate links.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

The data shows that the 357 mag delivers higher velocities in off the shelf defense ammo. Federal Hydroo shock and Speer.
What really stands out is that a .357 in a 2' vs 3" barrel gains over 300 F/S!!

[WHS 5906]

Originally Posted by Imaposer

To an extent this is true based on the physics of the faster acceleration of the bullet. But with the really short barrels much of the potential of the .357 isn't realized since the acceleration period is relatively short, and is in fact wasted in the form of excessive flash and blast. I for one wonder if the advantage in terminal ballistics is really worth the trade-off in controllability, over a modern bullet that it designed to perform at +P velocities, like the Gold Dots. Just my thoughts.

That's another story with good points. My point is I constantly read blogs where people say they don't think that a .357 mag has any advantage over a .38 out of a short barrel. If there is more felt recoil from the .357 it's because the bullet is traveling faster and creating more rearward force.

If it hurts more on the handle end of a gun it's going to hurt more on the barrel end of the gun as well.

[J. W.]

With the exception of a few hundred factory rounds, my 442 has had nothing but my handloads using 158g hard cast bullets fired in it. I've never had an issue. Lets not forget that 158g LRN was the standard .38 Special load for decades.

[hotrod150]

I load the soft Speer SWC-HP's which has a crimp groove, and I put a firm crimp on the case. I load them to about 900 fps using W231 and have never had a problem with them jumping the crimp. This is in steel-framed j's.

[navihawk]

I just bought some Remington .38 special with copper jackets. 50 rounds for $15.99. I was looking at them and they look like good quality ammo. They dont have any criming though.