Gang - revolver guru's,

Funny, I always was a semi auto guy, but for some reason last year I wanted a Model 686. Couldn't find a pre-ILS 686 at a reasonable price, so I ended up with a new 686-6+. Other than the write up I did here on the SWF on how incredibly dirty it was Brand New in the Box, it's a GREAT gun. Fun to shoot, and can even "plink" with .38's. Also can be used defensively. A great camp gun with 4" barrel. That's a versatile combination, and I'm all for not stocking more calibers of ammo! Well naturally a few more .357 magnums followed, along with a couple Marlin levers in .357. Man, it happens fast when you get that "bug" huh? Sorry for the lead in - my point?

While I was ordering Wolff's Springs for an older Model 539 semi auto I have afflicted with a DA trigger pull somewhat akin to a staple gun, I picked up some Wolff "power rib" reduced power revolver mainsprings. I always wanted to try them in my M 13, M 586 & M 686. I'm interested in feedback from any SWF members who have used these Wolff Springs, and their opinion as to any reliability trade-off's.

Frankly the DA triggers on my old Model 13-2 & Model 586 (no dash) are so sweet I may not screw with them. The new 686+ is quite a bit heavier. My 686-6+ is fun on the range, but maybe fun-er with a lighter trigger pull. BUT the 686+ is part of my "upstairs" HD. I don't want to do anything to affect reliability. One can deal with an occasional light primer strike at the range, but don't want light primer strikes in a HD situation. Maybe should leave it heavy?

I suspect there are those of you out there who have used and tested the Wolff Springs and have all sorts of opinions on the subject. Please lemmmeknow if you do. - hutch

Wolff springs run great in any number of my revolvers.
Recently, I sent a DAO Model 64 in to the Performance Center for the "Combat Revolver" package.
Guess what? it came back with new Wolff springs installed.

__________________
-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

I have Wolff reduced power mainsprings in almost all of my S&W revolvers.

I believe that it is worth an investment in two things:
Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on S&W revolvers
Trigger pull gauge

Newer S&W double action trigger pulls seem to consistently top 12 pounds, plus they generally are not smooth. Dry firing a thousand times may help with the smoothness, but a spring change will help as well.

It is possible to lighten double action trigger pull by replacing and shortening the mainspring tension screw (except on J-frames). However, I believe that is more likely to result in light primer strikes than the Wolff reduced power mainsprings.

Others will tell you that you would be irresponsible to lighten the springs in any self-defense revolver and that you open yourself up to additional liability.

WOW - Wolff springs from S&W Performance Center. That's pretty cool. I'm gonna try them today. - hutch

By consensus, Wolff makes the best springs.

Per Wolff's recommendation, I don't use their reduced power mainsprings on any piece that might see defensive use. I figure they know their springs pretty well and their suggestion is advised.

This doesn't mean you can't use a reduced power mainspring and still enjoy perfect ignition reliability -- you can, either by luck in some cases, quality action tuning, trial-and-error with factory ammo, loading your own, or any combination thereof -- but I'd rather stack the deck in favor of complete reliability.

I also don't think lighter is always better in trigger pull, but I always prefer smoother.

New springs without a well-smoothed action will only serve to underscore snags in the action, so look at this as a systems approach and plan to improve a couple things at once, if you go this route.

Or just shoot, shoot, shoot...

I have put Wolff mainsprings, (and rebound slide springs) in most of my revolvers. Examining the mainspring will show that its indented design has the same effect as shortening the rounded end of the strain screw. If, by chance, a previous owner has filed the end of the strain screw to lighten the pull, the addition of a Wolff spring, in addition to the filing can reduce the power to the point that light strikes are a certainty. The springs are terrific, but take a look at the screw before you install them. If the end is flat, the spring may be a bad idea.

__________________
Why, I aughta.....

I agree, and this is why I retain the factory spring in all of my SD revolvers. Even if testing shows that the gun is still getting reliable ignition with reduced power mainsprings, buy reducing the energy that the hammer has to impart on the FP, you have obviously moved closer to the point where it wouldn't. How close? Who knows? It could be that just a little bit of fouling under the extractor star or something could make the difference when you really need it to work. Just that little margin is enough for me to sacrifice that super light trigger pull for.

I have a few K & L Frames with Wolff "PowerRib" mainsprings and found
that I couldn't use Pachmayr, Gripper, grips on them due to the fact
that the raised rib interferred with the grip screw.

On one gun I couldn't get the screw past the mainspring and on another,
a 2009 686SSR, which came stock (I bought it new) with a "ribbed"
mainspring that looked to be a Wolff to me, I could get the screw
in but when the spring bowed back, under tension, it hit the screw.

On the SSR, the gun was working fine and since the grip screw cleared
the spring during installation I thought I was good to go, that is until I
tried dry firing it a few times to check function and had a problem
with the hammer not going fully back, then hanging up. This didn't
happen on every trigger pull, it was an intermittant thing.

When I seen that I reverted back to my "work days" and asked
myself, what, if anything, changed? It was then that I did some
checking and found out what was happening. I went back to the
stock SSR Grips and the hammer problem went away.

I don't know if the Wolff Type 2, which the OP is talking about is the
ribbed type or not. I just thought I would relate my experience as an FYI.

__________________
Ogy

Mike McClellan called good money on the strain screw. If you go with the Wolff Power Rib spring, you should start out with a new strain screw, which is just a couple of bucks from Brownell's. I found that most of mine were too short from the factory to use with the Wolff spring. If you have the skills to get inside your revolver, make sure that you have no pins protruding from the sides of your hammer or trigger that would drag on the inside of the frame or sideplate. Also making sure the internal parts are clean and lightly lubed with also help smooth out your trigger pull.

Mike

I've also had really good success adding hammer pin and/or trigger pin shims on some revolvers where there was obvious wear on parts. Especially where the area on the frame or sideplate right around the hammer pin/trigger pin looks rough or uneven. On one really rough 25-2, I think I ended up using as many as 3 shims on the right side of the hammer and 1 on the left.

Thanks to all who responded. I put the Wolff reduced power mainspring in a brand new 686-6+. No wear of any kind on this one. Only had a few hundred rounds thru the barrel, but the trigger pull was pretty heavy. Smooth, but heavy. I already had torn her down and slicked it up before I ever shot her.

What an amazing difference. Almost seems lighter than my two old .357's. I'm not going to put them in my 586 no dash, or my older 13-2. They are already smooth and light enough. Need to get a bunch of rounds downfield to be sure I'm not getting any light primer strikes. It almost feels too light, if that's possible.

Question: The shape of that Wolff spring may make the standard power Wolff feel softer that the original equipment S&W mainspring. Anybody simply replace the S&W factory part wit a regular power Wolff? That may be enough on its own?

- hutch

I have a Wolfe Full Power Ribed Mainspring in my 686-5. With the strain screw cranked down the trigger pull is not bad. It is not as light as some of my other tuned Smith & Wesson Revolvers however.
I believe it is lighter than the factory spring.

This is my new IDPA SSR gun, and I am still tweaking it.
I ordered an Apex extended Firing Pin for it first. It was too pointed on the nose end to suit me. I have a Cylinder & Slide Extended Length Firing Pin on order from Midway that should be in today. I wanted the new Firing Pin on hand before I started working with the Main Spring setting.

Ron Power "Power Custom" has done his Majic to the 686-5 already. It has perfect Cylinder Alignment on all 6 holes. The Cylinder Gap is perfect. The Chambers have been Chamfered. Ball Loc has been installed. It has been polished and tweaked here and their to perfection.

I will probably retain the Full Power Ribbed Spring in the 686-5. The plan will be to start backing it off in 1/4 turn increments until I start having ignition problems, or like the way the trigger feels, keeping track of exactly how much I back the strain screw off. If I back the strain screw off till I have misfires I will then crank it back in 1/4 to 1/2 Turn. I will then BLUE Loc Tite the strain screw with it reset to the backed off position. I will test fire it again before the BLUE Loc Tite sets up.

Another thing, I will load the test ammo with CCI or my old stock Silver Winchester primers for the testing. I load all my match ammo with Federal which are easier to set off than CCI or Winchester Silver primers.

The 686-5 is getting close to completed, I am still waiting on my Cylinder & Slide Fiber Optic Front Sight, which is on back order.


Bob

__________________
ICORE MO2908

The regular Wolff hammer spring is lighter than the OEM flat spring. I believe that the 'Type 2' is just what we did call the 'Reduced Power' spring. Check to see if the screw intrudes into that hump - it may be 'too good' of a DA pull! I use a 1/2" Allen-headed set screw in place of the OEM screw in my 617 - check via search fcn for the write-up here. You need a certain minimum hammer hit energy to reliably pop most primers - more for rimfire.

Merry Christmas!

Stainz

Love to see that wheel gun Bob. Gonna give us any gun porn? - hutch

I have the type 2 main spring and a reduced power trigger return spring in my 686. It makes a big difference in trigger pull. It is not 100% reliable with CCI primers - I get about 1 failure per 100 rounds. It is 100% reliable with Federal primers. It has also been 100% reliable with Federal ammo, including their personal defense magnum ammo. I forget the specific name on the box, but it was a 130 gr hollow point.

When I put the type 2 spring in mine, I did notice that the screw intrudes into the hump on the spring. I've wondered if I should be concerned about that. I get 100% ignition with federal primers so I haven't done anything about it, but now I'm thinking I should get a longer screw and try it out.

I was thinking the same thing. Where will you look for a longer strain screw? I can't seem to find anything. - hutch

BTW, this is a good time of year to test ignition reliability if you have access to an outdoor range. I had an instance where it was sub-freezing and the revolver started getting misfires after having made a spring change the day before. Set it aside as it was too cold to fool with it, but a few hours later when it had warmed up some it worked fine. Swapped out mainsprings again and the next time it didn't miss a beat in the coldness. For most range purposes, the cold probably isn't a factor, but for a defensive or hunting revolver it could be quite important...

GREAT idea jaymoore! By the way, it seems the Wolff spring could create a problem as the strain screw sits inside that rib. Wouldn't that effectively shorten the strain screw? Combined with a lighter type II mainspring there may not be enough tension?

Everything I find on SWF seems pretty old. Just wondering if a longer strain screw with the type II Wolff would actually be the way to go? Any thoughts? - hutch

Try the spring "as is" and see if its OK. Quite frankly, I don't think there's any Wolff mainsprings left in my own revolvers. Several do have Wolff trigger return springs, though.

It's way slower, but most of my high use, go-fast revolvers have factory mainsprings that have been hand polished with stones and uber fine grit wet&dry sandpaper. (Some upwards of 1000 grit if you want to know the level of insanity.) Width gets narrowed to reduce pull and then the sides repolished.

Last time I went to the range (I think temperature was upper 20's), I took my 686 with the type-2 spring and ammo loaded with CCI primers. They all fired. This was all single-action, didn't try double action.

I used to narrow and polish the main springs and shorten the rebound springs on all my S&W target revolvers, a fairly labor intensive job to get them just right.
Now I just order Wolff's #2 kits and I am very happy with the outcome .
I may still polish lightly here and there, but most of the time it's really not necessary.

It do make a difference! Hammer fall is shorter in DA. But if it's how you normally shoot it, then there's no worry. Unless things have changed, CCI primers aren't known for their sensitivity. The gamers usually select Federal primers for super tweaked actions instead.

Can someone please this polishing of the mainspring, narrowing I can see, but what is polishing and why?

__________________
Dick

Sir,

It's not often that I've had the experience to address a fellow member's question with any significant degree of confidence, but this may be an exception to the rule.

I bought a 686-6 Plus model just like yours around eight years ago. As in your case I use it as one of my HD guns. When I first fired it on the range I couldn't believe how stiff the trigger was. I knew immediately that that had to change. I know that practice helps us to adjust to many peculiarities of a gun, but I wasn't willing to go through oodles of rounds to learn how to pull that trigger without the heaviness of it throwing off my aim in some way(and that is exactly what it did). I might add here that I am a good size fellow with pretty strong hands, forearms, and so on -so when I say that a trigger is stiff, you can take it to the bank(For a second opinion I spoke with Jerry Miculek's wife, who shot the same model and totally agreed that the stock trigger tension was far too heavy.).

As I recall I learned about the Wolff springs from the folks here on the forum, and promptly ordered a set. I also read all the discussion here about the possibility of light primer strikes when these are used. Consequently I also ordered an extended firing pin from Cylinder and Slide and installed that when I installed the Wolff springs. I'll note here that it's not the length of the pin that promotes reliable ignition, but the shape of the tip. At least at that time C&S's pins were made with a cone shaped tip which came to a point, whereas stock S&W pins had a hemispherical tip. The pointed, cone-shaped tip takes less hammer force to dent the primer than the hemispherical one.

The result has been completely satisfactory. The trigger pull is reduced enough that I can pull it straight back without moving the rest of the gun, and I've not had a single light strike in the many, many rounds I've fired. I trust it completely.

One thing that helps with that particular model, in my view and some others here, is the MIM hammer and trigger. I don't like the looks of them, but they function smoothly without any additional work on my part. If you want to know more about MIM, you should be able to find a number of threads about it by using the search function.

Just a couple things about the Wolff hammer spring which may be helpful: You asked about the effect of having a rib which doesn't mate real well with the tip of the strain screw. My own opinion, which I can't prove, is that Wolff was aware of that when they designed the spring and therefore that it doesn't present a problem with ignition. One trick that can help if light strikes occur is to pull the anvil out of a spent primer and slip the cup over the tip of the strain screw, which in effect lengthens it and thereby increases tension on the spring.

The other thing I wanted to mention about the spring is something I haven't experienced, but which others apparently have: With a LOT of shooting, the Wolff spring is reported to wear out. One of the members who hasn't been with us here for quite awhile was/is a competitive shooter, and he said that he had to replace them eventually. But he was talking many thousands of rounds.

Well, pardon the treatise; I hope it has been at least a little helpful.

Best wishes in becoming proficient with your gun.
Andy

Polishing the spring is done not to smooth or lighten the pull, but the eliminate stress risers from small imperfections on the surface of the spring. Little cuts and tooling marks create high stress areas which can lead to the start of tiny fractures. As the spring is flexed over many cycles the fractures can grow slowly. Which is one reason why springs can lose strength over time.

It's a durability mod rather than a "trigger job" thing. For most folk it's completely unnecessary. But if you dry fire a lot and shoot thousands of rounds a year it might not be a bad idea. I reckon the one 686 has had upwards of 15,000 rounds through it and probably 5-10 times that dry firing. And I'm a lightweight compared to some shooters!

I'm obviously not into high quantity firing, but thank you very much. It never hurts to learn something new every day and that I did not know. Thanks!

__________________
Dick

I usually practice target shooting at the 50 yd range, so I almost always single action. I need to do more double action for both practice and tet the primers. I normally use federal primers but have some CCI also.

Thank you snowman for the detailed response. I read about using the primer cap as a shim, but don't know if I like that idea.

I checked Cylinder & Slide and can't find an extended firing pin for S&W revolvers. They have "Trigger Pull Set's" in both reduced power (target use only) and standard for "duty" use. S&W Revolver Reduced Power Trigger Pull Set w/ Frame Mounted Firing Pin, New Style - Target Use Only From the pic it looks like the frame mounted firing pin is included in the "kit". Know where I can get just the extended firing pin? THAT sounds like the solution. I tiny bit longer, and slightly different shape seems to be a really good solution.

Not having light strikes yet, but don't wanna, and really can't stand the original trigger pull. A bit like a staple gun. Now it feels too light. In between would seem just right. I realize that when I have shot this gal as much as some of you (15,000 rounds plus) it will slicken up, but I'm impatient, and I may not ever get 15,000 rounds down range. Shoulda just had a smithy do a trigger job eh? Any other ideas? - hutch

ps: Duh - found the pin here: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index....ow&ref=SWfpins Says "new style" hopefully extended and has the shape Andy mentioned.

Oddly, though it's developed one short timed chamber and the rifling is well eroded at the forcing cone due to lots of jacketed bullets, the action on the 686 4" hasn't changed much in ages. Which doesn't hurt my feelings at all even though my annual round count is way down the past few years. It's still heavy enough to make me work at shooting it well. And that requires lots o' rounds downrange, unfortunately! I wish shooting the .22s would directly translate to shooting heavier calibers, but it just doesn't quite do the job, especially at speed.

(ETA: Can't think of a reason not to use a discharged primer cup for a bit more strain screw reach. Just be sure to either bottom the screw or add a lock screw to the frame to lock the strain screw in place. Otherwise, it WILL back out...)

JayHutch,

I checked the C&S link you provided, and it looks like they may have changed the tip configuration. However there is a shadow in their picture which makes it difficult to tell. If it were me I would call them and ask. Also, a number of members here have bought their extended pins from a company called Apex, and they report good results with them. So you might check with Apex also, and maybe open a thread in the Smithing section requesting views of the Apex pins.

I would be inclined NOT to recommend that a smith work on your gun, the reason being what I mentioned in my earlier post about the MIM hammers and triggers. They really don't need fine tuning to function smoothly, in my experience. I would cock the gun and put a drop or two of good lubricant down each side of the hammer.

Enjoy your 686 -it is a fine, fine revolver.
Andy

TX Andy - I do love that 686+. Believe it or not, I haven't even shot that sweet looking 6" 586 no dash with the adjustable front & rear sights yet. Hate indoor ranges with 10 lanes that allow big rifles. I like outside. I'm about to simply wade thru the 10 inches of snow and blast 50 rounds down in the ravine! - hutch

I just came back from the range, put 50 through my 686 with the type-2 spring, ammo had cci primers. Of the 50, I had one light hit firing double action. So I would say that the type-2 isn't suitable for defensive use.

I have some defensive handloads (160 gr LSWC, 14.0 gr 2400, federal 150 primer) that I trust to be 100% reliable. I also have some Federal self defense ammo that has been 100% reliable, but I don't know if it uses federal or cci primers. (they are owned by the same company now).

I was sitting eating breakfast this AM and read thru this thread which kind of got me thinking. I recently bought a bunch of Wolff Power Rib mainsprings as well as an assortment of their rebound springs ranging from 12 lbs. to 16 lbs. After I received the springs I installed them in two of my S&W revolvers, a Model 14-3 and a Model 17-3. Both revolvers now have the Power Rib mainsprings and 14 lb. rebound springs. Trigger pull on both revolvers is great and I also incorporated some action work on both guns to smooth things up even more. I have not had a chance to shoot the Model 14-3 yet but the Model 17-3 hasn't had a misfire with any of the .22 rounds I have fired thru it to this point.

I also had one untouched Model 586-4 that was going to get the same treatment, but after reading this thread and seeing the question "what does just a mainspring change to a Power Rib spring do" I thought I would find out. I checked D.A. and S.A. trigger pull with my Lyman Digital gauge and got 10.75 D.A. and 4.8 S.A. averaging over 5 trigger pulls on the 586-4. I then switched the stock mainspring to the Wolff Power Rib and checked trigger pull in the same fashion and got 9.7 lbs. and 4.2 lbs. So just changing the mainspring does make a noticable difference.

I then installed a Wolff 14 lb. rebound spring and trigger pull dropped to 8.0 lbs D.A. and 2.13 lbs. S.A. So changing the rebound spring makes quite a difference and is very noticable. This is about the same results I have on my Model 17-3. I then installed a 15 lb. rebound spring and trigger pull went to 8.6 lbs. and 3.7 lbs. I am going to leave this result as is and do some polishing, but I want to see if I have any misfires with this spring rate next time I go to the range. I'll run some CCI branded primers thru the 586 and see what happens. It should be noted that none of these 3 revolvers have had any sort of work done on them before I changed the springs.

Take care and good shooting.........Rick