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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 08-14-2013, 08:21 PM
Cal44 Cal44 is online now
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Default Another canted barrel

I know some of us here think this issue is overblown, but I hit it again.

A LGS had a 686 SSR in stock -- a gun I've been interested in.

I went in to see it.

The barrel is canted -- by that I mean screwed on a small amount past-dead-center.

But even worse, the barrel clearly pointed off to the left relative to the sight bar.

Very noticeable.

It might shoot OK, but this turned me off.

Trigger was good, however.

They also had just gotten an M&P R8 revolver. It was kind of wicked looking in black with both rails in place. 8 shots of course.

It had a significantly better trigger than the 686 SSR.

Awful expensive -- at this point I can see paying over $1200 for a 357 magnum.

I'm considering an M&P 22 as my next handgun purchase. I think that would be a fun gun to shoot. They are $399 at this store and that's pretty cheap compared to the revolvers.

A couple other interesting guns they had in stock.

A Ruger Gp100 4" in blue. Surprisingly it had quite a good trigger at least as far as I can determine by just dry firing.

Also a S&W M36 classic in blue. A nice gun, but they wanted over $700 and it had the lock. Plus I already have my snubbie addition adequately satisfied (for now).

And comment or experience with the M&P 22?

Is it a reasonable gun for 22 Steel Challenge for a beginner? I'm considering trying that and need some kind of 22 to start with.

Dave
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:09 PM
jonesy814 jonesy814 is offline
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I paid $309.99 for my M&P22 last year on good Friday. They threw in an extra magazine top. An area shop is currently advertising them at $354.99, and they too are including a free magazine.
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:40 AM
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Default Canted - Great for Red Wines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I know some of us here think this issue is overblown, but I hit it again.

A LGS had a 686 SSR in stock -- a gun I've been interested in.

I went in to see it.

The barrel is canted -- by that I mean screwed on a small amount past-dead-center. . . .

. . . and need some kind of 22 to start with.

Dave
Hi Cal:

I'm sure you are a nice guy and all, but I hope we never meet - especially in a gun store. Sounds like I'd soon fall into a compulsive fit and buy something outrageous. Wait, ahhh - that happens anyway.

Well, fate is fickle and she does have a demented sense of humor. And that's all there is to that. (snicker, snicker)

Take care,

R

P.S. The canted barrel thing - I'm just dumbfounded by the problem. I assume it's a tool and/or jig and/or CNC problem. If it's a CNC matter, then really - fix the d___d thing! If it's tooling/jig related, then my guess it's a pure gross margin and total sales thing. The only thing that fixes that is leadership wanting it fixed, or eventually getting tagged as a company with quality issues in a high-end marketplace (think Mercedes and the h___ they eventually went through).
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:32 AM
Gunsnwater Gunsnwater is offline
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The two part barrels don't have this problem.
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Old 08-15-2013, 06:02 AM
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I’m one of those who think the significance of a canted barrels is exaggerated, but it bugs you so don’t buy that 686.

The M&P 22 is a plinker or perhaps an under study for a center fire M&P auto. The M&P 22 lacks the adjustable sights, weight, barrel length and clean breaking trigger of a target pistol. New shooters occasionally start local matches with M&P 22s. In a month or two they’re back shopping for a target pistol.

If I had it to do over again I’d save up and concentrate my gun budget into a model 41 at age 18. I’d have gotten 40 years use out of it and the cost per match would be low. However, that’s too much foresight to expect out of an 18 year old. There are a lot of decent target pistols in between the M&P 22 and a 41. Ruger Mark I, II, or IIIs, Buck Marks and old High Standards come to mind. If you can’t bring your self to lay out good money for .22, the S&W 22A which Cabelas has put on sale for $199 many times is a much better target pistol than a M&P 22. I’d hunt down one of the discontinued stainless steel framed 22Ss. They’re a lot less expensive than adjustable sighted steel frame Ruger .22s but that’s not why I prefer them. Ruger’s tubular receiver traps firing debris so they have to be cleaned more often, and compared to a 22A or 22S they are a PIA to field strip and reassemble.
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:15 PM
echo1xg36c echo1xg36c is offline
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I don't think I would be too happy with a canted barrel. Just seems wrong to have something crooked on such a nice piece
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Old 08-15-2013, 10:28 PM
S&W45Colt S&W45Colt is offline
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S&W tolerance is 2 degrees either way.

I've never seen a canted barrel on a S&W, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. I know the subject has too as many posts on here about it for it to be a myth.

One thing that's been said on here I think it the key, if you're not sure, never buy a gun. You always regret it, or at least I know I would.
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W45Colt View Post
S&W tolerance is 2 degrees either way.

I've never seen a canted barrel on a S&W, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. I know the subject has too as many posts on here about it for it to be a myth.

One thing that's been said on here I think it the key, if you're not sure, never buy a gun. You always regret it, or at least I know I would.
I bought an 3" M60 a while back and didn't notice it had a canted barrel. Probably more the 2 degrees.

I sent it back to S&W and it came back adjusted right on center.

Took only about three weeks.

This SSR had less clocking, but the barrel groves on top were not straight with the groves on the front sight bar. Not sure if the barrel was "bent" to the left, or the sight to the right -- but I left the gun in the display case anyway.

I looked at several more guns as I posted, and they were all OK.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:14 AM
S&W45Colt S&W45Colt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I bought an 3" M60 a while back and didn't notice it had a canted barrel. Probably more the 2 degrees.

I sent it back to S&W and it came back adjusted right on center.

Took only about three weeks.

This SSR had less clocking, but the barrel groves on top were not straight with the groves on the front sight bar. Not sure if the barrel was "bent" to the left, or the sight to the right -- but I left the gun in the display case anyway.

I looked at several more guns as I posted, and they were all OK.
Sounds to me like you made a good choice in walking away on this one. I know it bummed you out, but you did the right ting walking on.
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Old 08-16-2013, 01:35 AM
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Default I don't think....

I don't think that not wanting a canted barrel is being picky at all. I don't buy a car if the hood is on crooked. From what I've seen on this forum it sounds like S&W should pay the same attention to barrels on the 686 as they do their triggers.
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:16 AM
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Default You don't know what you think you know

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Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
From what I've seen on this forum it sounds like S&W should pay the same attention to barrels on the 686 as they do their triggers.
Speaking of triggers, I was at a LGS looking at a new 629 I was interested in buying but it had a very untypical S&W trigger feel. I asked if they had another in-stock & he said "No, what's wrong with that one." When I told him he said if they had another it would feel the same, all large frame S&Ws feel that way. I told him it was okay for a Ruger, but not a S&W. Don't you just love it when sales people try to tell you you don't know what you know? (This is the same store that said they couldn't sell their primers by the 100/pk anymore because they're in short supply & that they could only sell them by the 1000/bx....sure.)

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Old 08-16-2013, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qrachel View Post
...P.S. The canted barrel thing - I'm just dumbfounded by the problem. I assume it's a tool and/or jig and/or CNC problem. If it's a CNC matter, then really - fix the d___d thing! If it's tooling/jig related, then my guess it's a pure gross margin and total sales thing. The only thing that fixes that is leadership wanting it fixed, or eventually getting tagged as a company with quality issues in a high-end marketplace (think Mercedes and the h___ they eventually went through).
It's a calibrated eyeball issue. As a fellow who deals with machine tools, jigs and fixtures every day, I still don't know of an easy solution on the one piece barrel variants.

Smith hasn't sorted it since WWII, and won't until it costs too much. Likely by quitting the manfacture of the old style revolver altogether.

BTW, one accepted method of adjusting windage for many revolvers (mostly Colt) in such tomes as Gunsmithing by Dunlap and Pistolsmithing by Nonte was to turn the barrel in one direction or the other in order to place the front sight in the right spot! I can only imagine the amount of trial and error involved. Have had a few Pre-WWII S&Ws shoot to one side or the other, but how they managed to align those ribless, small sighted barrels so well might be worthy of some investigation.

Last edited by jaymoore; 08-16-2013 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:37 AM
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Re: Canted barrels. If this is as prevelant as various posts indicate, then it is a real business opportunity. After all, how hard would it be for a gunsmith to set up and correct problem revolvers? Rebarreling a M-1 Garand is not so hard. Why would it be difficult for a similarly experienced gunsmith to correct a improperly installed barrel?
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:52 AM
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Re: Canted barrels. If this is as prevelant as various posts indicate, then it is a real business opportunity. After all, how hard would it be for a gunsmith to set up and correct problem revolvers? Rebarreling a M-1 Garand is not so hard. Why would it be difficult for a similarly experienced gunsmith to correct a improperly installed barrel?
It's not technically difficult, unless it is. Does the customer want the "rear sight centered" version of "straight up"? Or or is it a case of matching the frame contours? Or the rear sight cut? I have revolvers that can satisfy one one of those three options!

Then there's the possibilty of something going wrong when trying to adjust the barrel. Several dramas come to mind. At least one of which is not really a clocking problem but something else entirely. Will start a new thread directly on that scariness. It's quit pouring down rain, so off to the range for a while.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:47 AM
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The canted barrel problem has been going on for 26 years that I can personally attest to. My 1986 model 686 has a canted barrel as does a 2012 model I saw at Bass Pro.

Mine is ever so slight, maybe a 64th or less but correctable by moving the rear sight over. The one at BP was way worse. My only displeasure is "it aint right". Why they seem to unable to correct the problem is a mystery... maybe they just don't care.

It remains one hell of a good gun however.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:17 AM
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I don't think a canted barrel is something to let slide and live with. It will cause misalignment in the sight picture like it did on my 642 which threw off shots if I tried to compensate. I've experienced and seen enough now to know why some refuse to buy anything but older Smith revolvers.

To the poster above me...26 years, really? I think S&W might need some new management, better employees or a proper QC department.

I work at a manufacturing plant that is worldwide and if I find something wrong, I tell QC and any management about the issue. They come out to inspect the machines, tooling, material and everything else. With-in a week or two, the problem is corrected. In my experience, on-going QC issues are the result of nobody caring as long as the profits keep rolling in.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
I don't think a canted barrel is something to let slide and live with.

...

In my experience, on-going QC issues are the result of nobody caring as long as the profits keep rolling in.
You indirectly expressed another of my views.

We as the purchasers of the product have a role to play also.

If we accept poor quality, then that is what we will get.

But if we send the product back and get it fixed under warranty, eventually someone will realize warranty costs could be reduced by better QC at time of manufacture.

Dave
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:55 AM
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Warranty work is a secondary cost of business. Stop buying guns with obvious defects, and they will pay attention quickly.
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:20 PM
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I bought my first S&W with a canted barrel in 1975. I adjusted its sight to compensate and it was a great revolver. Ever since barrel cant has been one of the things on my check list buying revolvers, but a little cant isn’t a deal breaker. I’m very glad I didn’t pass by a used 617 no-dash over an obviously canted barrel. I attained my highest indoor .22 bullseye average with that 617.

There was no golden period of craftsmanship free of canted S&W barrels. The slot milled across the barrel threads for the old barrel pins was generous enough for the pins to freely pass through with a canted barrel. The forum administrator who collects and deals in old S&Ws has posted that a little cant has been within S&Ws accepted manufacturing process since they’ve been in business.

The S&W canted barrel “problem” is two fold, caused by the combination of post WWII barrel ribs and the internet. Barrel cant that went unnoticed with round barrels and makes no difference in revolver performance is easily spotted by misalignment of the barrel rib and rear sight serrations. It took collectors who spend more time examining their revolvers than shooting them broadcasting every perceived flaw over the internet to create the “problem”.

Carry up or timing, lack of end shake, lack of cylinder rotational play at lock up, B/C gap, trigger pull and cylinder throat diameters all are more important than a little barrel cant in a S&W revolver.
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Old 08-16-2013, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Carry up or timing, lack of end shake, lack of cylinder rotational play at lock up, B/C gap, trigger pull and cylinder throat diameters all are more important than a little barrel cant in a S&W revolver.
This is true, plus lower quality materials and cutting corners which is rampant in many brands now a days. MIM, cast, less fitment required like my recent 500 yolk pin that just fell out after breaking, etc. Lower quality material causes problems.

My company switched to lower cost, lower quality materials and it was nothing but problems making the products and when tested, many failed. This went on for awhile and I kept bringing it up over and over and they finally switched back to where we got material before and guess what, all of the problems went away. I know some canted barrels aren't bad, but I've seen some that are just ludicrous.

Many companies have QC issues, but I'd think such a long lasting American company like S&W would make sure that their reputation stays strong. If I didn't have a job like I do, I'd probably just say whatever and never give it a second thought, but I think they could improve some quite easily with the right push inside the company.

Taurus has the worst QC I've seen. Their cylinders have gradual play at every notch from kinda tight to loose as a goose. I've yet to handle a NIB Taurus revolver that wasn't like this. Used S&W and Ruger revolvers with thousands of rounds through them seem to keep they're tightness or at the very least, be perfectly even throughout the entire rotation.

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 08-16-2013 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 08-16-2013, 05:25 PM
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This occurs not just on recent models. I have a 686, no M, dated 1984, which is probably 1.5 degrees and a 63, dated 1988, which is probably 3.5. The 686 is not noticeable, but the 63 is, which has the rear site way to one side. I don't expect precision from all my gun manufactures, but I do from S&W. I take that back. Yes, I do. We spend fortunes on sights, triggers, polishing, balancing, grips, bullets, etc., just to get that little bit more accuracy. Why would I just want to accept something less, even if it is cosmetic. When we are reloading, do we say, yep, that looks close enough! Should I send the 63 back? Yes, I should, but sometime the risk is not worth the reward.
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Old 08-16-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
...Taurus has the worst QC I've seen. They're cylinders have gradual play at every notch from kinda tight to looase as a goose. I've yet to handle a NIB Taurus revolver that wasn't like this. Used S&W and Ruger revolvers with thousands of rounds through them seem to keep they're tightness or at the very least, be perfectly even throughout the entire rotation.
I have come to think they do it on purpose! As a "for instance":Measured several Millenium Pro .45 ACP barrels (which have nice tight lock up in the gun) and all measured 0.456" groove dia. with lands right at 0.449", IIRC. Might as well be smoothbores. The fullsized 24/7 barrels have good bore dimensions, but terrible lock up. Put a 24/7 barrel in a small "Pro" and it shot fine, but wasn't about to buy a whole pistol just to get a barrel. Sold every Taurus I've ever owned as none have ever been quite right. Revolvers, pistols, etc. Have seen many owned by others with stupid dramas as well. The old PT92 and maybe 99 were about as close to real guns as they've ever done. THAT was probably an accident that they have done well not to repeat.

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Old 08-16-2013, 09:20 PM
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They do exist, my new 617 has very slightly canted barrel. Not really easy to see and it shoots fine. It is there however and it bugs me that a $750+ revolver has one. I looked at three others at LGS's in the area and all were the same. Canted to one degree or an other. Still trying to decide if I should send it back to S&W.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:29 PM
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I would like to see a picture in order to get a sense of how far off it is. We don't seem to see too many pictures on this topic, and what is open and obvious to some might be less noticeable to others.

I have never seen a canted barrel on an S&W in 40+ years of shooting and 30+ years of being an FFL. I have seen a canted barrel on a Winchester (USRA) 94 Trapper .30-30.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:33 PM
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They do exist, my new 617 has very slightly canted barrel. Not really easy to see and it shoots fine. It is there however and it bugs me that a $750+ revolver has one. I looked at three others at LGS's in the area and all were the same. Canted to one degree or an other. Still trying to decide if I should send it back to S&W.
Sending it back is pretty painless.

I called them on the phone and got right through.

They send you a FedEx sticker by snail mail -- took about three days to get here.

I went to the local Kinkos/FedEx and got a free box and a small roll of bubble wrap.

Wrapped the gun, put in a hand written note about what was wrong, checked to make sure the gun's serial number on the paperwork S&W sent me with the FedEx label matched.

And then went to the nearest (3 miles away) major FedEx station and dropped it off.

You need to remember to tell the FedEx person there was a firearm in the package.

End-to-end delay was less than a month.

I asked the S&W guy if I needed to ensure the package, and he said no.

Dave
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:44 PM
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On mine it is easiest to see looking at the barrel to frame area. Very apparent the barrel is off center to the left. Looking down the sights (6") you do not really see the front sight tilted. At the barrel to frame junction things are not right.
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:58 PM
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I passed on a 3" 60 pro series today. Brand new. Super nice, no canted barrel. Buuuuuutttt...when you pulled the trigger, the rebound spring didn't work all the time. About every third pull the trigger wouldn't reset. You'd have to pull it forward to get it to 'click' back in place.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:40 PM
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BTW, it's not just S&Ws. Observed that my 1970s Colt Python barrel is not "centered" this morning. Left the camera's cable elsewhere, so no photos for a while. It's quite noticable now that I looked!
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:21 PM
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Who cares if it shoots dead nuts on? Maybe S&W needs a barrel signature like Ruger, but one that says "Shoot Before Whining".


I swear some gun owners are the type that iron their underwear. For a shooter performance is No 1. If I was a piano player in a cathouse I would be more worried about my gun's aesthetics.
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Old 08-17-2013, 04:31 PM
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Default Machining problems with barrels

They are a frinking gun manufacturing company, one of the best there is. If they can't put a straight thread on the end of a barrel and the inside bore of the frame and screw them together straight??? I'm a realist and know of manufacturing production problems. If they wanted to they should be able to fix it pronto rather that let it go on over a couple of decades. It's like me being a great car mechanic but I've always cross threaded spark plugs!
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  #31  
Old 08-17-2013, 05:38 PM
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LGS had 3 different model 686 in stock, a 4 inch barrel SSR Pro(6-shot), a 5 inch barrel Pro (7-shot), at a standard 4 inch 686(7-shot.) The barrel of the 4 inch SSR Pro appeared straight dead on, the 5 inch Pro was however over-clocked meaning the grooves on the barrel were not in line with the top of the frame. I believe this is what a lot of people on the forum are referring to as canted. Am I right?

Well I tried to imagine the assembly process to explain how the barrel could be out of alignment this way and I believe it is actually very simple. I imagine the frame is held in some vice-like device and an operator places the barrel in another device that is like a drill bit that clamps onto the barrel but spins it so that it screws into the frame. The operator probably pushes a button and the barrel screws into the frame until it is tight. How far the barrel is screwed in depends on the milling of the threads on the barrel and also how the torque is set on the screwing machine. I would think if the barrel is just a tiny bit over threaded, it will be over-clocked when screwed on tight. (Or it could be under-clocked but this presents the same problem so I will just talk about the over-clocked situation.)

Is this a serious problem? I believe so. Imagine a perfect barrel. The front sight will be straight up in the middle for the picture in the rear sight slot. If the barrel is over-clocked the front sight will not naturally fall in the center of the rear sight picture. One can adjust the rear sight but the sight picture will be out (left or right) at different distances other than the distance at which it was zeroed.

Back to the assembly process. After the operator tightens the barrel down he probably releases the frame with the barrel now attached and throws it onto the assembly line for the next process. Eventually it gets boxed up and shipped out to gunstores and then us customers. I think that S&W QC needs to insure that the barrel is adjusted so it is straight on at this point in the assembly. I think an assembly technician could see this in just a few seconds and then slightly loosen or tight the barrel to get it perfect. I believe that the majority of S&W barrels are close enough to perfect but I have seen examples at gun stores that were obviously over (or under) clocked.

I'm not a gunsmith or a gun assembly expert but this is how I envisioned it. Please let me know if I am totally off base but please be kind.

PS. I bought the SSR Pro with the straight barrel and am in the waiting period which my gun unfriendly state requires.
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:05 PM
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I think Shawn posted this link before. Around 3:35 of this video is how the factory installs a barrel.

Smith and Wesson Pro Series - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick
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Old 08-17-2013, 06:30 PM
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I would shoot it first to see if it's accurate to the POA. If it's accurate I'd leave it alone. If it bothers you that much then send it back for repair.

Aren't the screw in barrels hand fitted till they lock in place tight?

I picked up a new unshot s&w m29-10 6 1/2" with all the accessories and the presentation case for $699. The PO purchased it and traded it in. It has a hairline of light under the extractor housing at the bottom. The barrel is perfectly aligned. She's a keeper.

My other three new s&w look perfect barrel alignment wise.

I'm still staying with s&w n frames in nickel of course. But I also want a ruger in 357mag. too in stainless unless I can hold the s&w first to see how it feels(686).
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:50 PM
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Default I think it's the guy.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkster View Post
I think Shawn posted this link before. Around 3:35 of this video is how the factory installs a barrel.

Smith and Wesson Pro Series - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick
Looks like the problem can be between frame boring and barrel threading to spinning on the barrel. The last guy to make an adjustment to the barrel/frame is the guy with the padded wrench. His superiors probably tell him to send along any gun on that has a messed up barrel, maybe nobody will notice.

Thanks for the video. That turned me on to a good series, "Shooting USA" that I'll be watching more videos from them.
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Old 08-17-2013, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickkster View Post
I think Shawn posted this link before. Around 3:35 of this video is how the factory installs a barrel.

Smith and Wesson Pro Series - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick
Yes thanks for posting that video. That's pretty much what I thought. The guy with the padded wrench needs to wake up, pay attention, and get it straight.
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  #36  
Old 08-18-2013, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Who cares if it shoots dead nuts on? Maybe S&W needs a barrel signature like Ruger, but one that says "Shoot Before Whining".


I swear some gun owners are the type that iron their underwear. For a shooter performance is No 1. If I was a piano player in a cathouse I would be more worried about my gun's aesthetics.
Well, some of those barrels are slightly off and some are "How did this get past QC?"
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:23 PM
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While I have seen "canted" barrels over the last 45 years of looking at S&W revolvers, reading all these various threads would lead one to believe it's an epidemic.

I have three letters that will explain a lot of this: O.C.D.

like the thread were someone went on for pages about there being small concentric "machined" circles on his stainless revolver. Gee I don't know the gun was "machined" at some point I guess.

If canting is obvious, do something about it. If it's an now you see it then you don't or you're not sure........

Dave
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Old 08-18-2013, 06:30 PM
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The YouTube video of production line installation of a 686 Pro’s barrel makes no mention of lathe turning barrel shoulders to fit specific frames. To be generous to S&W we could presume that step was left out to simplify the video. It’s also possible S&W can select barrels based solely on measurements. Barrels spin in freely until the barrel shoulder stops against the frame. Imperfect lathe turning of the barrel shoulder is the root cause of canted barrels. S&W uses 36 threads per inch on J, K, L and N frames. One revolution moves the barrel in or out 0.028”. Assuming the same barrel installation torque, cutting 0.001” too much off the barrel shoulder will cant the barrel 13 degrees. Barrels shoulders are lathe turned so that the barrel shoulder contacts the frame 36 to 45degrees before the sight is at 12 O’clock. Final torque is varied to get the barrel on straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgewalker View Post
[...] The guy with the padded wrench needs to wake up, pay attention, and get it straight.
If the barrel shoulder was cut only a few thousandths short it won’t be on tight enough if he stops when the barrel is straight. In that case the choices are to set the barrel back just short of a revolution, get a different barrel or cant it enough that it will stay on. Put him under time pressure and guess what the easy choice is.

One other thing I noticed in the video is that the barrel is turned in tight with a wrench with parallel jaws grasping the frame across the cylinder window. Members have written that there is risk of bending the frame without a frame wrench that uses inserts that fit the yoke area of specific frames. Any one care to comment on frame wrenches?

Last edited by k22fan; 08-19-2013 at 03:50 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #39  
Old 08-19-2013, 01:24 AM
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Default Waste Not, Want Not

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Originally Posted by Badquaker View Post
Warranty work is a secondary cost of business.
It is assuredly a secondary cost to them but that doesn't justify their inaction to correct a known problem. The unnecessary return process costs has to reduce their profits & forces them to cut cost/quality elsewhere. Look no farther than the white outline on your premium revolver's rear sight. In the "old days" these sights had a groove around the notch & a HEAVY layer of bright white paint in it, that stood out. Comparing an old one to today's current version is shameful with the faint white paint, that barely stands out & you can almost see thru, on an ungrooved surface. Wasting money one place costs in another, plain & simple.
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Old 08-19-2013, 02:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
...One other thing I noticed in the video is that the barrel is turned in tight with a wrench with parallel jaws grasping the frame across the cylinder window. Members have written that there is risk of bending the frame without a frame wrench that uses inserts that fit the yoke area of specific frames. Any one care to comment on frame wrenches?
I'm thinking that frame warping is a concern mostly with the older models and the aluminum framed revolvers.


Repeat photo seen in an earlier thread.

One thing S&W doesn't have to worry about on the production floor are those old revolvers which may have decades of hardened oil, rust and fouling locking the barrel and frame together quite effectively.

Having to assemble the frame wrench is a lot slower, too!
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  #41  
Old 08-19-2013, 04:07 AM
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The more critically I look at the video barrel installation the more it appears barrel fitting isn’t shown. The woman spins the barrel in until its shoulder contacts the frame. When she’s done the barrel has at least 45 degrees left to go and it looks more like 60 degrees. When the man checks barrel assembly then gives it a final turn with his frame wrench he only turns it a few degrees. It could be he’s finishing the installation of a different revolver’s barrel but I think barrel fitting wasn’t shown.
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  #42  
Old 08-19-2013, 06:43 AM
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Here is the other link that Shawn had posted. It is the Performance Center installing a barrel.

Smith & Wesson Performance Center Part 3 - YouTube

Cheers,

Rick

The link to the original thread:

Factory installation of revolver barrels

Last edited by Rickkster; 08-19-2013 at 06:45 AM. Reason: Added thread link
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  #43  
Old 08-19-2013, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymoore View Post
BTW, it's not just S&Ws. Observed that my 1970s Colt Python barrel is not "centered" this morning. Left the camera's cable elsewhere, so no photos for a while. It's quite noticable now that I looked!
Installed a new sight on the Python, so range and photo trip. (In the rain! That's why everything's propped up in the .22 ammo box- wet bench...). Note that the rear sight ended up a bit to the left. Overall, it was a little more accurate than the late 3" 66 which also got a new rear sight this weekend, but the Python has a far worse trigger DA and SA than the K-frame's MIM parts!:
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  #44  
Old 08-23-2013, 04:43 PM
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Did I mention already in THIS thread that I don't know when to quit?

How about a Colt Anaconda this time? Amazingly accurate revolver out to 100 yards. But note the barrel! The rear sight is way left on this one, but it's not out of travel, yet, so nothing gets touched.:
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  #45  
Old 08-23-2013, 05:04 PM
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And... here's two Model 10-6s of not too different vintage. One has a slightly over-torqued barrel, the other: not!

Oddly, they both put bullets in almost exactly the same spot at 25 yards. (As does a Model 64 with Hogues.) Have more photos of the three, but if the over torqued example shoots the same as the "straight" ones, it doesn't seem a problem. Which may be why it continues to happen? I'm not worried! But it's fun looking!

(BTW, I'm sad that that .38 Spl. wadcutter ammo doesn't show up in mass quantities any more...Only a few hundred rounds of this lot left. These revolvers do shoot 158gr LRN ammo more to point of aim, but usually not in such tight groups. New ammo seems terrible!)

The barrel close up are of the "over torqued" barrel. Nothing to see on the others. The bottoms of the barrels also show the misalignment, but the maximum "attachments allowed" are five, so will hold back for now.
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  #46  
Old 08-23-2013, 05:17 PM
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Re: your question about the M&P 22 get one, you'll not regret it. I had one to go w/my Model 18 and like an idiot let it go. Plans are to get another M&P 22 but use the good ammo. While mine shot anything I put thru her it most accurate w/the CCI stuff.
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  #47  
Old 09-02-2013, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymoore View Post

The barrel close up are of the "over torqued" barrel. Nothing to see on the others. The bottoms of the barrels also show the misalignment, but the maximum "attachments allowed" are five, so will hold back for now.
That must be the famous 'crush fit' that I've heard so much about.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwsmith View Post
That must be the famous 'crush fit' that I've heard so much about.
They should all be "crush fit" pinned or no. As noted by others in this thread, all the pin does is to keep a barrel from unscrewing completely. The barrels were relieved on top before installation for the longest time. Easily verified by the extra width and the blued finish.

It's the lack of "crush" that tends to be the problem.
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