627 pc

Felipe1960 · #1 08-16-2013, 12:38 PM

I recently purchased a revolver 627 performance center barrel 2,5/8”, 8 rounds, SKU 170133.
I saw that the holes in the cylinder towards the barrel has an
internal thread which is not present in other revolver smith & wesson in my possession that are completely smooth.
This thread is normal in my revolver? What is the use?
I attach photos of the cylinder.

03Fatboy · #2 08-16-2013, 01:48 PM

That is an error in S&W QA/QC process, unfortunately it happens to certain degrees. In other words, they are not done working on that revolver. It needs to be sent back to S&W to be corrected/completed and also ask them to thoroughly inspect, check and correct anything else that may have been left out of the process.

Felipe1960 · #3 08-26-2013, 09:55 AM

Today I returned my 627pc Italian importer of S&W.
I hope this time they give me a good revolver, since this will be the third try.
still do not understand why they did not notice you have missed a stage in the production process.
if this is the new quality of the products s&w performance center I think that will give up to buy new products and will buy only used.
I do not like to spend * 1,300 for a defective product

old bear · #4 08-26-2013, 10:19 AM

Quote:

I do not like to spend € 1,300 for a defective product
Reply With Quote

Sir, no one likes to spend any amount of their hard earned money for a defective product, no ,matter what it is. I don't blame you for being upset.

Felipe1960 · #5 08-26-2013, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old bear

Sir, no one likes to spend any amount of their hard earned money for a defective product, no ,matter what it is. I don't blame you for being upset.

I thank you for understanding.
I have seen, however, that this internal thread, in addition to being in the cylinder, was also in the initial part of the barrel

calcifer · #6 08-26-2013, 11:12 AM

just to specify : this is already a replacement of another revolver that Felipe had received with some minor defects....
Here the link to the first topic :
poor finish on a 627 PC

Hard to believe that the replaced model is worst that the first one !!!
What the hell is happening in Springfield ???!!!??
I think that the S&W management should find 5 minutes to have a talk with the quality control manager.... remembering that we are talking about a model that came out from the performance center, and not from the standar dproduction lines...

David Sinko · #7 08-26-2013, 11:27 AM

Interesting reamer marks, not threading. I'm guessing every chamber looks like that? It seems all chambers are cut with the same reamer. Is there supposed to be an additional step, or is the chamber cut once and done? I often wonder about the life of a chamber reamer. How many times can they cut a chamber before the reamer needs to be sharpened? How many times can you sharpen a reamer before you need to throw it away? Do you know if the throats are undersize, normal or oversize? Hopefully they will not simply polish out the marks if the chambers are already oversize.

Dave Sinko

Felipe1960 · #8 08-26-2013, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Sinko

..... I'm guessing every chamber looks like that?

Dave Sinko

Yes, all chamber are the same

jaymoore · #9 08-26-2013, 12:03 PM

My almost new (mfg. early 2012) 6" 686 has the same appearance in the throats. It also shoots extremely well. It is likely the most accurate .357 I own! (Only the old 686+ PC Light Hunter is in the same league.)

Whether the bored but not honed throats are intentional, I don't know, but I've seen quite a few lately that are just the same. (Can't think of a new 686 that I've looked at lately that did NOT have the "threads"...)

Felipe1960 · #10 08-26-2013, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymoore

My almost new (mfg. early 2012) 6" 686 has the same appearance in the throats......

also the initial part of the barrel?

jaymoore · #11 08-26-2013, 12:26 PM

There's invariably some roughness to the forcing cones unless it's been worked over after leaving the factory. New or older. (Really old S&Ws often have about no forcing cone, so they don't count.) As long as it's concentric to the bore, it's OK. If it's bad uneven, THEN you have dramas.

It's got a bit of lead in it, and some lint, but there's "threads" visible in the front portion of the forcing cone of this 1950s .44 Special. Perfectly normal

Neumann · #12 08-26-2013, 12:41 PM

These are tooling marks from a boring head, which is a precise sort of drill with a single point cutting edge. A reamer leaves a very smooth surface with random circumferal marks. I'm surprised Smith doesn't ream the cylinders after machining, or at least use a cutter with more of a radius. None of mine have obvious tooling marks of this sort.

I doubt it will have any effect on accuracy, but may result in leading or difficult extraction.

Felipe1960 · #13 08-26-2013, 12:52 PM

I already have a 625jm and a 686 6 " and none of these has these marks on the cylinder or barrel.
I did see the photos to an expert and he confirmed that it is a processing error.
in 627 performance center my friends, equal to mine, these signs are not present and everything is perfectly smooth

jaymoore · #14 08-27-2013, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felipe1960

in 627 performance center my friends, equal to mine, these signs are not present and everything is perfectly smooth

Shoot your friend's and yours back to back. see how they compare. Then decide on your next step.

Having no photo of your forcing cone, it's tough to have an informed opinion. But my new PC 629 Competitor has the same cylinder throat appearance as your 627.

calcifer · #15 08-27-2013, 03:41 AM

@jaymoore : honestly speaking, I do not think that it is a matter of accuracy in shooting.
I just cannot immagine the difficulties in cleaning those tooling marks after having shot some leads.... and how a bullet could be undercalibered after having passed through them.

As I already said, I'm a fan of the Springfield factory, but that is clearly a miss in the tooling process. And could not be acceptable either on a low budget chinese weapon or on a U.S. performance center tuned gun.

If this defect is acceptable to you..... well, could not be acceptable for another user and, IMHO, Felipe had all the rights to reject the gun.

I just hope that somebody in Springfield will understand that there's something wrong in the quality control process, and will intervene on the matter, since we all would like to go on buying the actual production without all these problems.

jaymoore · #16 08-27-2013, 05:10 AM

I just don't know that it's not purely intentional on S&W's part. If it showed up once? Sure!

My guess is that in order to more accurately position the throats, they've removed the reaming/lapping process and are now CNC boring them without actually moving the cylinder during the process. (In relation to it's fixture, that is.)

I've had a gazillion Smiths without the boring marks, but few shoot as well as these new guns. If there IS a drama, then by all means, the world should know, but my testing to date indicates the opposite. (I did find some complaints about the 629 PC, but not directly related to this. and did you see my thread about the 686 with the **** frame/barrel threads that came apart in the gunshop with a mere twist of the wrist???)

As an apple to apple comparison, the new "ugly throats" 686 is FAR more accurate than a lovely "no dash" 6" 686 which has only it's looks to keep it from being promptly swapped off!

calcifer · #17 08-27-2013, 05:41 AM

Sorry, but I just cannot believe that it is intentional.
if it would be, why than on the previous gun received by felipe (the one with the burrs on the trigger and the tooling marks on the barrel) those marks in the chambers were not present ????

I don't like to repeat myself, but once again, we're not discussing about the effects of this defect on the accuracy of the gun, but about the defect itself, that indicates a failure in the tooling process, and a poor quality control.

The best thing would be if other owners of a recently purchased 627 PC could confirm that those tooling marks are not present in their guns, and that felipe could post a picture of the marks of the barrel throat too..

jaymoore · #18 08-28-2013, 02:42 AM

I measured the throats of my new 629 PC Competitor which have a very similar appearance to the photo in Post #1. Very uniform with just a hint of taper (smaller by ~0.0002-3" towards the muzzle end). A nice 0.430" ID. Will post photos around the end of the week.

Have fired some lead bullets through it, no dramas here. So this area passes my inspection. However, there's some consternation on another front, but that's for another thread.

BLUEDOT37 · #19 08-29-2013, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymoore

As an apple to apple comparison, the new "ugly throats" 686 is FAR more accurate than a lovely "no dash" 6" 686 which has only it's looks to keep it from being promptly swapped off!

My 686-no dash has course circular marks like the OP shows. My 686-6 & 657-5 have fine circular marks like the OP shows (both of which are good shooters). Others have faint circular marks like the OP shows. Only the Mdl.500 & M357NG have smoothly finished throats.

Concerning similar marks on the forcing cones, most of my S&Ws have course circular marks in them, which does't seem would be as desirable as a smooth forcing cone, which few have. Why aren't they more consistent?

jaymoore · #20 08-29-2013, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37

...Concerning similar marks on the forcing cones, most of my S&Ws have course circular marks in them, which does't seem would be as desirable as a smooth forcing cone, which few have. Why aren't they more consistent?

The .500s and .460s especially have finely finished surfaces survive under the rifle type pressures from what I understand. I've nothing in my area that requires that much power, so haven't tried them.

Otherwise, the forcing cones tend to be of "hit or miss" finish due to the generally low cutting speeds at which they have been traditionally machined. Not only does cutter tooth finish have an influence, but the chips are work hardened as they form and can score the base metal as they ride in front of the reamer's cutting face. (Aggressive flushing helps, but is no guarantee of prevention.) S&W has never come back and polshed this area to any degree, so...Generally it doesn't seem to be an issue, as bullet velocity is low in this region.

BLUEDOT37 · #21 08-29-2013, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymoore

The .500s and .460s especially have finely finished surfaces survive under the rifle type pressures from what I understand. I've nothing in my area that requires that much power, so haven't tried them.

We have some pretty vicious paper targets in OK that "require" this much muscle. I've bleed for at least a minute once from such an attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaymoore

Otherwise, the forcing cones tend to be of "hit or miss" finish due to the generally low cutting speeds at which they have been traditionally machined. Not only does cutter tooth finish have an influence, but the chips are work hardened as they form and can score the base metal as they ride in front of the reamer's cutting face. (Aggressive flushing helps, but is no guarantee of prevention.) S&W has never come back and polshed this area to any degree, so...Generally it doesn't seem to be an issue, as bullet velocity is low in this region.

I'd noticed the lack of smoothness on the forcing cones on some of my guns (but a few are very well finished) some time ago. Since the purpose of it should be to gently angle the bullet into the barrel, it wouldn't seem that having course/rough cut circular grooves in it would help or be conducive to increased accuracy? Just seems like another area where they cut corners.

jaymoore · #22 08-30-2013, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37

...Since the purpose of it should be to gently angle the bullet into the barrel, it wouldn't seem that having course/rough cut circular grooves in it would help or be conducive to increased accuracy? Just seems like another area where they cut corners.

If corners have been cut, then they've been cut since at least the early sixties...

I think that the forcing cone is sort of a failsafe for slop in the system. Hopefully a well tuned revolver uses the function of bashing the bullet back on track little if any. Hand ejectors mfg'd up to WWI (not sure when the practice ceased, possibly with the introduction of the .357 Magnum or maybe the M1917) have miniscule forcing cones. In good shape, they don't seem to suffer! There's more than a few fans of the oldies on this site, but I don't know how many of them actually shoot their objets d'art....