I have been a member of this forum since 2005, mostly lurking sometimes contributing. Note my low number of posts that are cyclically dated.

I only own one brand of revolver (S&W) and also for the most part S&W autos and find not only the laudatory comments about S&W's useful but also the less than stellar review or opinions. None of the negative comments have kept me from buying three of the revolvers with much discussed features.

The frame firing pin, country of origin parts etc. are from what I've read fairly rebutted and discussed in a "generally" constructive manner.

Granted some should tone the criticism down but IMO if S&W were interested in the subject of dissatisfaction of current and future customers maybe a better tack than censorship would be engagement by explaining design change issues and possibly polls on new products from OWNERS????

Perhaps a rebuttal by S&W themselves on the reasoning (ONE TIME) for a feature change would be the most effective way to stop criticism?

Anyway, maybe THIS post will garner some points toward banning me?

I believe the point of the caution is exactly as stated - if you purchase a revolver with the internal lock, two piece barrel, or MIM Parts (which does not mean "made in Mexico") and have an issue with them this is the forum for discussion. Of however you refuse to buy a revolver with those features, the forum owner is saying that it has all been heard before and does not warrant further discussion.

Lee is just trying to stop people from getting flamed constantly.
It seems that the 1980 - Present Forum is where the worst offenders are, as far as knocking new products, etc.

New guy on the forum posts a picture of his new M629, then a rabid anti-lock, anti MIM'er jumps in and tells the new guy "That ain't a real M629! The real one don't have MIM,..... Blah, blah, blah, etc."

I agree with Lee - that garbage is beyond old and does no good for anybody, least of all a newcomer to our sport and/or this forum.
If you read the new policy, it clearly states that if somebody personally has had a malfunction with a newer revolver, they are welcome to post about it.
Just don't rip on the current guns out of personal contempt for them.

I for one like the new policy.
________________


Read the disclaimer at the bottom of the page - this board is not owned by or affiliated with Smith & Wesson:
Any product complaints need to be sent directly to them.



P.S.
Between you, me, and the fence post, from what I've seen, it usually doesn't end well for people that dare the Admin. team to ban them.

The problem is that the complaining has been done to death and nobody likes listening to whining.

I wholeheartedly support the new rule. I am so sick of the same lame, trite, boring posts and replies complaining about newer Smith's. It's as ridiculous as the IL whining. If you don't like them, don't buy them, but leave the people who want to buy a new Smith alone. Want an example, look at the post on the new Model 66's. It's always the same comments from the same type of poster, it's like Chinese water torture.

I do not disagree with having a preference for older Smith's, nor would I argue new Smith's are as well built as the older models, that's a given, but that does not mean the new guns are pieces of junk.

I say Bravo Mr. Jarret for the new rule and Thank You.

Wow --So-i can come back here ? Cool -- all my SW rev. are 1980 to 2014. Feels nice to be Home again. I bought a few new SW rev. and they all have a LOCK. I love those locks....

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Dood! Like yer really creepin' me out! I bought a new 642 last year. It works fine, but I removed the flag cuz Ize paranoid.

I read the sticky posted by Lee the night it was posted.I understand the meaning for it ,and why it was done.You guys don't realize how peaceful it is here considering the member count.For the last five years, I had been an Enforcer at three Troll infested watch forums.My role was to take on and embarrass the Troll from wanting to return. Getting banned by an Administrator was actually a badge of honor for these idiots.The point that I"m making is that forums in general can either be an online peaceful community, or a place to avoid.Speaking from my experience , the gun forums in general are peaceful places overall.There are some exceptions at just a couple of other military weapons forum I visit.i have actually walked away from a hobby I really enjoyed because of the nonsense and bickering.So I say again that this place is a pleasure to come everyday.The members are all stand up folks who enjoy this great hobby.I support any action that keeps things enjoyable here.

S&W SPEAKS for it self

Most of my S&Ws are pre-1980... but... I have a nice 3" 66-2 that isn't P&R... I've carried it OD, afield on foot & on horseback. As far as the latest offerings... I have just 1, a nice M66-7 (ex-Aussie LEO tradein) yup, MIM, firing pin in frame, 2 piece barrel, IL. It is a fine pistol & backs up a shotgun in my bedroom. It will do to ride the river with!

It should not be necessary to do the final QC inspection before purchasing a product but that seems to be the way of the modern world, not just in the gun making business. I buy few guns these days... if an item 'speaks to me' it's going home with me.

__________________
NRA LIFE
Reserve Officer 9yrs

Lee's forum...his rules. Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

We are so lucky in this country that we still HAVE firearms! There must be millions around the world who would give their left *** to have a new S&W revolver. Big picture guys...big picture! Old stuff/new stuff...I support it all!

I could go on a rant but...

Well, I despise the MIM parts, Hillary Hole, and even the 2 piece barrel (unless it's on an old Dan Wesson).
I also don't like the frame mounted firing pin.

That said, I won't flame anyone for anything.
To each their own.
At least they're not buying Blocks, umm....I mean, Glocks.

I just prefer the way Smiths were previously made.

I do think they absolutely ruined the lines of the revolver when
they went to the frame mounted firing pin.

I have 2 Smiths that fall into the 1980+ category.
586 no dash and 66-1.
I like them just as much as I like my older ones.
Except that I prefer blue to stainless.
But, hey, 2.5" 19s just don't show up in my area often.

I'd like to have an X frame. I just haven't found a buttstock to fit one yet.
Speaking of which, Smith should make a carbine version of the X frame.
5 shots of .500 S&W as fast as you can bear to pull the trigger.
It could be fun.
Or not.

Anyway, the M&P pistols have almost gotten me to forgive them for Ed Schultz and the current revolver design.
If they'd bring back the 52, I could overlook it all.

Now, a 640 without all the new model stuff would really make me happy.
There's room for us all.


Anyway, the more people buy new Smith revolvers, the better deals I get on old Smith revolvers.
And that's what really matters, to me.

I guess I should thank Glock for having such good BS marketing.
Convince people to trade in their old, useless Smith revolvers toward a
new Tupperware brick.
That's how I got good deals on most of mine. People trading "up"(??) to
a Glock.
Poor, unwanted, unloved K frames. I'll give them a home and feed them
regularly.
I mean, useless-garbage, antiquated "wheel guns".
Yep, keep trading old guns for new. I don't mind being seen with some
old girls.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

There is a search feature on this forum, and if I recall correctly, Herb Belin, in charge of revolver production at S&W at one time, and perhaps still with S&W in a higher capacity, wrote a lengthy piece on some of the improvements, MIM parts perhaps. It was well done and explained the process, the reasoning, and maybe even debunked the idea that the process was cheaper, if done correctly. As I recall, they did it because they thought it was the best way to get consistent and interchangeable parts, not the cheapest way.

EDIT: Here is the post in question, so now we can all be assured that S&W has already addressed the MIM Part issue on this forum:

I have read with much interest the many comments in this [Smith and Wesson] forum pertaining to MIM, MIM Parts and the use of same in a S&W product. So far I have come away with several impressions and they are, "people in general don't like/trust MIM parts", and, "no one has said why." I will take a stab at this issue and see where it goes.

As background to our decision to use MIM in some areas of our Mfg Process we took a long hard look at our "Life Time Service Policy". It was clear to us that any change in any of our products such as the use of MIM components had to show equivalent or better performance and durability to those components that were being replaced or the "Lifetime Service" would haunt us forever. The second consideration was to determine if the change was too radical a departure from S&W mainstream design.

For the performance and durability issues we decided that if MIM could be used for the fabrication of revolver hammers and triggers successfully this would truly be an "Acid Test". There is nothing more important to a revolvers feel than the all-important Single Action that is established between the hammer and the trigger. Mechanically few places in a revolver work harder than at the point where the hammer and trigger bear against each other. If these surfaces wear or lose their edge the "feel" is lost. Initial testing was on these two critical parts.

Over time we arrived at a point where our best shooters could not tell the difference between a revolver with the old-style hammer and trigger and the new MIM components. Special attention was given to their endurance when used in our very light magnum J-frames such as the early prototype 340 & 360 Sc's. None of our revolvers work their components harder than these small magnum revolvers. Throughout this testing MIM held strong and finally we determined that this change judged on the basis of durability and feel was a good one.

The second area of concern to S&W was our customer’s reaction to this departure from the traditional. Many heated, intense discussions resulted but in the end the decision was made to move ahead with MIM. The issue of cost was only one of the considerations in making this decision. Equally as important was the issue of part-to-part uniformity and the result of this of course is revolver-to-revolver consistency. We found that revolvers that used MIM hammers and triggers required almost no fitter intervention in those areas during final assembly and final inspection and trigger-pull monitor rejection rates dropped markedly on finished guns. From an internal process point of view it appeared a "Winner".

Let's shift gears for a moment and talk about the MIM process. It is unclear to me as to the reason for many of the negative feelings on the forum concerning MIM. Typically when people complain and aren't specific in the reason why, the problem is often created by a departure from the "Traditional". Perhaps that is indeed what is bothering some people when they view MIM.

The term MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding. It holds some similarities to Plastic Injection Molding and many differences as well. To start we would take a finally divided metal powder. This could be stainless or carbon steel. Today even titanium is being used in some MIM fabrications. We would mix the metal powder and a thermoplastic binder (generally a wax) forming slurry of sorts when heated and inject this mix into a precision mold and finally form what is known as a “green part". This part is roughly 30% larger than the finished part it will become at the end of the process. Interestingly enough the green part at this stage can be snapped in two with simple finger pressure. The green parts are then placed in a sintering furnace filled with dry hydrogen gas and the temperature is brought almost to the melting point of the metal being used. Over time the wax in the green part is evaporated, the metal fuses and the part shrinks 30% to it's final correct dimensions. At this stage of the process the MIM part has developed 98 to 99%of the density of the older wrought materials and a metallurgy that is almost identical. Dimensionally it is finished and no machining is required. However the job is not yet done and the MIM parts are brought to our heat treat facility for hardening and in the case of hammers and triggers, case hardening. Depending on the particular metal alloy that was used at the start of the process we apply a heat treat process that is the same as would be used if the material were the older wrought style. Final hardness, case thickness and core hardness are for the most part identical to parts manufactured the older way.

Lets look for a moment at how we achieve dimensional precision when comparing these 2 processes. The old parts were each machined from either bar stock or a forging. Each cut and every resulting dimension was subject to machine variations, cutter wear, operator variations etc. If every operation was done exactly right each and every time and the cutter didn't let you down you would have produced a good part but sometimes this didn’t happen, resulting in a rejected gun and rework or in the worst case an unhappy customer. With MIM parts you must still machine to very high tolerances and your cutters have to be perfect and your machinist has to be highly qualified but all of this only has to come together one time. That time is when the injection mold is made. Typically a mold for this process costs S&W between $30,000.00 and $50,000.00; once it is perfect every part it makes mirrors this perfection and you have, in my view, a wonderful manufacturing process.

Hopefully this description will help us all better understand the MIM process. Please forgive the spelling errors and misplaced punctuation. I have no spell checker on this and the phone continues to ring!

Have a Great Weekend,

Herb [Belin,
Project Manager, Smith & Wesson]


Additional Point:

Currently S&W is paying about $1.20/Lb for stainless steel bar stock. Raw MIM stainless steel inject able material costs $10.00/Lb.

I was going to respond to this post trying to be positive. You know, like hang in there, things will get better, etc. But as a
3rd generation Smith and Wesson Collector, I can only say maybe you need to try buying something else. I wish you the best of luck.

SWCA #1834

I'm looking for a watch forum.

__________________
Drop me off at Lane Bryant.

HUH? I don't get where you see any criticism of S&W firearms, the truth is it's quite the opposite. Your inviting me to try buying something else is completely uncalled for.

Sir,
I am sorry for thinking your original post was knocking Smith and Wesson. When you referred to censorship, I thought you were referring to this particular forum which is privately owned, and can make it's own rules.

I don't know how we can ever balance education and bashing. I suppose as members get tossed off the forum, we'll get down to a point where everybody left loves everybody left.

I've been a member here for some time now but have not posted much as I did not have much to say due to a previous lack of knowledge regarding revolvers. Thankfully that has changed and I feel my opinions are more educated now.

Lately I've been posting a little bit more mainly because overall this place is very polite and respectful. I recently left a forum that I had been a part of for a very long time becasue the discussions became very immature in my opinion. My account there is still active but I've lost all interest in going there.

I love the new rule. We can agree to disagree, let's just do it in a mature manner.

I haven't got any problem with the MIM parts. Some of the new processes are superior to old. I wouldn't be surprised to find MIM parts in things like jet engines and controls.

The firing pin change doesn't bug me either. Hammer mounted have broke come undone. Frame mounted has worked for Ruger, and the always reliable 1911.

The recessed cylinder is nice, but actually does nothing.

I have a model 18-4 that didn't have a pinned barrel that started shooting off and I figured out it was turning. Tightened it up and I drilled filed a slot in the right spot on the barrel and installed a pin. A little time and some pin stock. Whoopee. I don't know how many barrels have came loose so not sure of the no pin program. This gun also needed some work on the ratchet. This is gun is around 30 now and has worked fine since. Some would consider it and older gun.

I am not a fan of the lock, but mostly because it is a solution that didn't fix anything, including the bleeding hearts it was meant to satisfy. If I ended up with a lock gun, I could always remove, plug and forget.

If the net would have existed we would have heard the same stuff when the dropped the top breaks, dumped the 3rd lock, came out with adjustable sights, etc. I also suspect that the same stuff will be heard in 50 years as the guys that are 30 now long for the guns of today. Hopefully S&W will still be around, trying hard to make decent firearms in a manner that keeps them affordable.

Sure sometimes "improvements" and different processes sometimes run into problems, usually ironed out and improved.

You hear they didn't built em like they used to. Yet my car has over 100,000 miles and runs like a top, expect to get 200,000 at least. How many 57 Chevies made 200,00 on the original motor? Its now on its 3rd set of tires. When did they make better tires? My diesel truck has over 200,000 and I expect its only about 1/2 way. Joke is there were probably whiners when the did away with the crank start and babbit bearings. I do wish they would have left the dimmer switch on the floor where it belongs though. LOL

Some folks should get a life or at least try to understand if everybody liked the same thing Smith and Wesson would only need to make one revolver. I personally have absolutely no use for a snub nosed revolver preferring long barreled guns. I would never think to denigrate your choice. I also like wood stocks and never thought I would want anything else. Then I bought a M625 that has rubber grips and a four inch barrel. Sure am glad I have not made a total *** of myself by coming here and saying that a short barreled rubber stocked revolvers are not real guns. That 625 is now my favorite gun to shoot and has opened my eyes to a whole new world of possibilities. These newfangled guns may not fit your definition of a fine piece but they are still far and away better than the competition in my opinion.

A funny thing happened to me on the way to old age.Years ago I always bought and drove Fords.Loved them.Then I started working on vehicles for a living,sometimes part time and then full time.After a couple of years of that I realized that GM products,at least in my experience,were somewhat easier to deal with.So I made the switch to Chevy.I used to get bashed for driving Fords and now I get bashed for driving Chevrolet.Now this is solely my opinion and doesn't really amount to much but somebody always gotta try to rain on somebody else's parade.I tend to pay more attention to an opinion that I asked for than one that is offered without asking.I don't know if this analogy makes sense but I do tire of the dead horse beating,not only here but in everyday life.Oh yeah,that old age thing?Some times I just don't care what other people think.Gettin' old ain't really that bad.
PS
Don't tell my wife any of this,she always seems to have an opinion I didn't ask for.

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I'm just here for the guns.

In the interest of us all being so polite and positive I'd like to make a suggestion. Could all of you who hate Glocks give it a rest.

I'm not a Glock lover but I respect them for what they are, a very good design that is both reliable and durable. I now shoot revolvers exclusively and only own one kind but I've owned and shot a number of Glocks over the years. The persistent mis-pronouncing (spelling) of the name and the relentless bashing of the brand is just so bloody tiresome. Again, give it a rest for goodness sake.

Dave

__________________
RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

And mucho thanks to Lee for keeping the streets safe!

I keep telling the haters: boycott the new revolvers , and smith is more likely to drop them than switch back.

Personally, i can't wait to get my hands on a 2-piece barrel model. It's the best if both worlds: Dan Wesson accuracy on an S&W. I hope it leads to switch-barrels.

I visited those three watch forums ... couldn't get the time of day.


Have you stopped by the major AR or AK forums lately?


The S&W Forum attracts a different caliber of person.

Lee & Co. run a tight ship. No guff given, no guff taken. It filters out the riff raff and keeps everything above board.

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I'm with the banned ...

I like my older s&w revolvers as well as my new s&w revolvers after all s&w is still offering the magnum calibers when the others aren't. That's a big plus for guys like me who still want big bore wheel guns. I hope they never stop offering the s&w guns in the world famous nickel finish too. Bill

I'm a KISS kind of guy. This is a revolver section.
I have several bottom feeders & don't CC any of them anymore.
I feel I can say that in a fourm with revolvers are the main topic.
If that's a problem. so be it.....

__________________
Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Every Smith revolver I own I think was made after 1980, and I can't say that they have shot any differently than my dad's S&W wheel guns that were made before 1980. Do an action job on either and you can't tell the difference. Both clean up nice and have heirloom potential.

Re-read his post, his point was the constant, predictable, Glock Bashing, not yours or anyone else's preference for CC. If you believe revolvers are best, cool, carry one, if you hate Glocks, that's cool too, state why you prefer revolvers and why, just leave off the same old comments. That was his point or at least what I got out of it.

I don't believe I have posted in this forum before.
Over here I'm in the earlier revolver section, lounge, or reloading.
I only have one newer S&W revolver. (a 66-2) I like it just fine. It is tough, robust, and goes 'bang' first try, every time.
The rest are old, ranging from 1880 through early 1960's, and they all go 'bang' on the first try, every time. I have always been an S&W man, but I have way more Colts. Go figure.
That's my story An' I'm stickin to it.

I've made it clear that I don't like MIM gun parts and "the lock". Non-P&R....that doesn't bother me so much. But I would never put down or belittle somebody for buying a current model. At least not seriously....maybe in a joking sort of way. As far as I'm concerned, the new ones being what they are, is what makes me appreciate the older ones. If somebody likes the new ones better, I don't have a problem with that. Somebody has to keep S&W in business, and it sure ain't me.

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'Merica!

This is a great forum for people to state there opinions. There is no need to trash anyone. I like hearing why someone doesn't like the same gun or feature that I do. It makes or interesting discussion. If there is a problem with the gun itself, it's ok to point it out. Maybe some one has the same trouble. Contact S&W and tell us how it was resolved. We all learn from this forum. Keep in mind that it's not one gun fits all. Some like a plinker, some a carry etc. If something you read bothers you , respond nicely or move on.

Let me start out by saying I'm an auto guy.

Well, I'm here to tell you that I CAN TAKE a bashing, I'm a grown man who makes my own decisions and buys products with my money. This is my 1st foray in the revolver world.

I came to this 1980's and later forum looking for advise on my 1st snubbie/revolver purchase.

I made my intentions known of what I was looking for and invited all comers to make comments, good or bad to help me make an informed decision. Well, thanks to everyone who did comment, and to others who devoted tons of time disinterested in giving me their version of what they liked and why, but rather gave me the info/facts of the parameters I laid out. All comments were considered, and the final decision was a M638-3.

I don't feel like I settled, it was what I was willing to buy given my options. Those who continued to guide/inform me know why I made my decision.

When I'm on this forum or any other, If I respond to a post, I think I do the same, give my honest opinion, and let the other person make a decision that suits them best. No need in getting angry because they didn't follow my advice.

With that being said I can't wait for the 638 I ordered to come in. It might be a week or a few months. That just gives me more time to learn more about the new purchase!!

Keep an eye out for pics of a proud new owner in the near future. (I hope)

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Criminals don't register guns.

"Re-read his post, his point was the constant, predictable, Glock Bashing, not yours or anyone else's preference for CC. If you believe revolvers are best, cool, carry one, if you hate Glocks, that's cool too, state why you prefer revolvers and why, just leave off the same old comments. That was his point or at least what I got out of it. "

I see you do not know know what KISS means.....
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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

I commend Lee for what he did. I'm with him 100% on this. This it the best S&W forum on the net.......Hope it stays that way.

__________________
S&W Accumulator

Right...............

My problem is that I can never remember the timeline. So for the benifit of my one last remaining brain cell, would someone please post the dates when the so-called undesirable features were introduced?
MIM parts
Frame mounted firing pins
Internal lock
Two piece barrel

Reading Comprehension- A Lost Art.
____________________________________

Did you miss this part-
________________________________

Then you have missed a lot of stuff that I refer to in the quote below. Maybe you don't see it because much of it gets deleted. In this thread, Smith Brings back the Model 66!!!, the OP wanted to post good news about the return of the Mod 66. The bashing started in the first 10 posts. When I saw the thread, it was approaching 200 posts. More than 60 were deleted as irrelevant hating/bashing by people who have no interest in ever owning the new Mod 66.
___________________________________

It is interesting that you replied to posts later than this one-

That's why I said-
__________________________________

Request or a challenge?
I can accomodate you on either one.



______________________________________
I think maybe he is referring to stuff like this, not a revolver or semiauto preference-

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I know I shouldn't, but here goes - can we still bash the French?

Simple answer: Lee's forum, Lee's rules. Not a big deal.

I get startled sometimes when I see the ** show up instead of the mild (for me) word or phrase I typed, but go back to the sentence I put at the top.

For me, I don't get wrapped around the axle about the negativity very often, because I can skip the post or string and drive on. Mods can't do that when they are herding the cats.

Do I disagree with some of S&W's choices/designs of recent times? Yup. Would I make different choices and models? Yup. Does it matter to them? Not likely.

Do some issues really grind me? Yeah. The number of people who come to the forum and ask a question that has been addressed once a week for the last 5 years (+P ammo and recommendations for carry ammo for their model are 2 examples that hit me). 3 strings on the same topic on the first page of a sub forum because no one pays attention to what's there before typing. Grrr. I TRY to just skip those strings. I don't have a better answer than that, although MAYBE more stickies on those topics, or about searching before asking would be useful. I doubt it.

Are there very real concerns with some issues at S&W? Yeah. The big one seems to be inconsistent QC. Too many reports on this forum, and others with slightly different focus (hard use defense/LE shooting, two of which come to mind). Is that different than whining? Yeah. Is this forum the right place for that sort of problem to be raised? Likely not, since as noted S&W has no stake here. It might be a great thing if they had an employee who tried to monitor forums like this one to see if there are trends of complaints that need to be addressed, and a process by which such things really are followed up on. If I get to be CEO/COO at S&W, I'll get right on that.

I have tried a couple of other gun forums. Some I stick with. One I avoid. It's dedicated to a certain platform of military rifle, and infested with nitwits who buy cheap 3rd tier stuff and call it "good enough", which it might be for their use, but disregard/disrespect the people who see a lot of rifles and a lot of ammo and know what works for LE/military use. There are also a staggering number of mindless cop bashers, whose drivel about a friend's OIS a few months back made me so mad I had to resolve to stay out of the forum because the comments were so ignorant.

The folks who use this forum are a pretty good bunch, and spoiled by the care taken by the mods, who are themselves ok as mods go. Quitcher bellyachin', and go read the first sentence of this post again.

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NHI, 10-8.

@ mc5aw. Have you stopped by the major AR or AK forums.

Yes , these are the two I am referring to without naming them.

Bashing French generals and politicians (is there a difference?) is mandatory. Bashing French women, wine, and pastries is ill advised.

I have problems with some aspects of S&W decision making and products but I really, really don't want to be that uncle that everyone avoids at family reunions, the one who got pissed off at someone in the family in 1947 and has to bring it up in every conversation, not matter what the original subject.

I am the same except now I have moved on to Toyota's and Honda's

Think of it as a typical public high school's " anti-bullying policy," except for grown-ups ............................supposedly.