Hey guys, first time poster here.

Purchased a new 686p at the start of the year. Obligatory pics for making happies-
http://imgur.com/1ZHejcz,pgW07Az,tVRQm1n,aqNujuZ#1
686p w/ altamont co. round-to-square grips

I read alot about the new S&W's with the EDM/EDC cut barrels being unkind to lead bullets. Im wondering if anyone has had experience, and whether leading was minimized with gas checks? Or is it how the rifling engages the bullet that causes the leading?

I'm not afraid of a little leading that my chore bore wrapped brush and/or chemicals cant handle. It's the reports I've read of those who shoot 50 rounds, and have enormous amounts of leading.

I have yet to try, though pending what i hear, I may just go ahead and give it a shot since I'd like to start shooting with the local metallic silhouette club here in Los Angeles. From my understanding, heavy (180-200gr for .357) lead bullets are preferred for metallic silhouette because the way the deform, they transfer energy well onto the targets (people describe it as the spitball effect).

I am unsure of any problem with EDM barrels causing leading. My Freedom Arms 654 has an EDM barrel, and leading was almost non-existent when I used the properly sized projectiles... EDM supposedly smooths out barrels, which should prevent leading, not cause it.

Gas checks will help significantly, but unless you are a caster gas checked bullets get very pricey, especially in the weights you are talking about shooting.

But to answer your last question, yes, the 180s and 200s are better at the longer ranges, as they have better momentum, which is what actually makes the rams and turkeys fall.

JMHO, but I think there are too many variables to lay the blame for leading at the foot of the type of rifling (and that is ECM - Electro-chemical machining). Use of gas checks couldn't hurt.

When shooting steel all the energy is transferred to the target whether it explodes on the target or mushrooms (spitball?). The advantage of using heavier bullets is more retained velocity down range.

Good luck with your endeavor.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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Thanks for your response doubless

I dont plan to shoot a ton of these cast 180's, maybe 200 every 1-2 months. Shoot 40 per silhouette match and the rest for practice. Yes they are expensive, best price I could find was rimrockbullets.com has 24$/100. Now I shoot mostly 158 xteme HP's w/ heavy plating (.357) and 125g xteme FP's (.38spcl and some .357), great price about 45$/500.

Pending on others who chime in, whether they seem to have issues or not with lead, I will buy the bullets.

Pizza bob- Yes one reason is the retained velocity, i guess i should have reworded that.As for using lead- I've been told by a couple lead casting guys much more experienced than me that the jacketed pistol bullets tend to break up before transferring all their energy to the Ram, whereas the softer lead bullets have a "spit ball" effect and will put more energy on the target. Maybe this helps you understand what I'm getting at, and why I want to use lead vs. jacketed.

If the bullet doesn't penetrate the target, then all the energy is transferred to the target whether it blows-up or mushrooms. The effect they are trying to express is "time on target". The transfer of the energy is over a longer time span with lead that mushrooms vs. a bullet that blows up. Keep in mind that we're talking micro-seconds of difference. Plus, in order to get a lead bullet that mushrooms slower than a FMJ, it would have to be too soft to drive at the velocities you'll need to take down those 200M rams. Six of one, half dozen of the other. I shot silhouette almost from the beginning. My first match was the second held in the US, in Mass in 1977.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

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Ha I see you know what I'm talking about. Those who explained the time on target idea called it a spitball like affect, and that visual stuck with me.

If a few more newer 686 owners can chime in, is leading noticeable with lead bullets? Gas checks helpful ?

Can anyone else chime in on they're experience with lead magnum loads out of a 686? Gas check preference? I am using unique btw until I find a slow burning powder. Just mid-range magnum loads at 6.5 gr with my 158 plated bullets.

Have had no success with cast lead bullets for IHMSA use out of either old or new S&W 686s. Accuracy just isn't there (to date). Gave up and went back to fairly wimpy .44 loads and soft lead bullets. Shot a 26 last Saturday (using a M29-3 in Field Pistol, which, for those not familiar, is 1/2 size targets shot standing out to 100yds/m.)

The ECM barrels don't lead badly for me. I think it's more a twist rate drama, which is why the older cut barrels have the same accuracy issues with the usual heavy and long (lube grooves add length for the weight) lead bullets. Tried all sorts of combos for over a year and bailed out for the time being. Much easier for me to get good groups using the .44, but that took some time to dial in as well! In that case leading was the issue due mostly to the oversized throats in the old 29s. That and "too hard" bullets.

That said, I've been quite happy using jacketed 158gr out of a newish (circa 2012) 686!

Some of the "test vehicles":


Even tried it scoped to minimize shooter error:



An "old" 6":


And the newest 686, which has done well (with jacketed projectiles at least!):


That new 686 does have smallish throats, but I think it may be part of the reason it's probably the most accurate .357 I own, including Pythons...

What I can tell you from experience is that my M&P R8 leaded badly. I do not have that issue with my other revolvers.

James

My 686-6 bought last year had .356 throats. It now has .3575 throats. For leading, I think it is valid to require "the bullet is larger than the throat, is larger than the bore". There is a step down in diameter at each point.

Gas checks are only for very high velocities, well beyond 1150 fps.

On occasion, I have had to resize oversize commercial bullets, especially hard ones. Always check them, if reloading.

I bought a 686-6 new last January. I shoot mostly 158 grain hard cast lead SWC's from Mo Bullet. I've had little leading each time I shot it. It's easy to clean up with good old Hoppe's #9 and a good brush. I've never tried gas checks and I don't plan to.

Thanks jaymoore and at liberty, very helpful responses.

Jaymoore nice tools there! Can I get away using 158s in metallic silhouette? I don't have real jacketed, I have xtreme 158hp's that have double the copper plating (so they can be run at magnum speeds) will these bullets be able to knock all targets down with good hits and 1100-1150 fps?

So at liberty, after fixing the cylinder throats, you could run lead bullets just fine ?in your 686 with ECM cut rifling? What hardness and velocities were you running? I'm guessing .358 bullets based in your cylinder diameter?

I didn't know my 686-6 had ECM rifling. I didn't use a chrony, but the load would have been subsonic. I don't have a record of exactly what I was shooting, when I decided to have the throats reamed, a trigger job, and trigger/hammer polished out. Bullets were Lasercast 158gr quite hard and get this, guaranteed not to foul the barrel. I had to resize the whole box to .358.

Not to be nitpicky (but I am) - it is ECM - Electro Chemical Machining. Not EDM - Electro Discharge Machining. Two different processes. S&W uses ECM for most of their line, while the PC uses broach-cut rifling.

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Too funny, that! Run slow, the lube doesn't work well at all and will almost always lead the area about and just fwd. of the forcing cone. Very slow powder will minimize the leading, but the best solution is a different lube.

Been there! Beat my head against the wall for some time fighting it. Pre-interweb days (for me, at any rate). But Lasercast bullets can lead, yes!

Jacketed 158gr bullets are fine. Sort of wimpy at 200m, but folk shoot Big Bore with 30-20 cartridges (or 32-20) and cast bullets regularly, and do fine, so...

I have had a few guns that want to lead up, I fire lap them to smooth out the barrel with good results.

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Warren

From research it sounds like I should eventually ream my cylinder. I can barely put a .357 jacketed through the cylinder throats. The barrel is for sure tighter from what i read, it should be. It would probably help if every throat was exactly the same, some same tighter than others.

If you are serious about shooting long range with the .357, then I'd suggest running "jacketed" for the time being and establish a baseline. Then you can start down the cast bullet path. Much more difficult path it is! The smallish throats seem to be an accuracy asset with jacketed projectiles at magnum pressures, so....

Just an update to everyone who helped-

Ran lead wadcutters this weekend (148g's under 2.7 and 2.9 g bullseye).

Ugh. The horror!worst leading Ive ever had. I only shot maybe 75 rounds and there is mounds of lead in the first 1/2 inch of barrel. I used a ruger sec. six as control, had zero leading. This seals the deal, will not be using lead again in the gun.

The only thing I can think is that perhaps the lead was way too soft. Since the leading is at the start of the barrel, could it be the ignition that is blowing/shaving lead particles off the bullets? I would think that if it was the rifling causing the leading, it would be distributed more evenly throughout the barrel? Just food for thought. I might be willing to try a harder lead, but not anytime soon. Took hours to get the leading out!

I think S&W has a bad batch of revolvers with tighter throats. I have been following threads like this and so far I noticed that most of the people who have been having leading problems was in the throat area and they are on the newer revolvers. My M&P R8 had this same problem. Sold it and the new owner had the same issues. He sold it and got another R8 and did not have any issues even with the same ammo.

James

I've got a 5" 686+ & a while ago I bought a box of Rim Rock 155gr L-DEWC, BHN-12 to play with. Using 38 Spcl. cases & loaded with Bullseye (3.3 & 3.8gr) I had moderate leading just past the forcing cone too. It has .357" throats, per my pin gages.

Unfortunately I got sidetracked with other "new" guns & haven't gotten back to it to sort it out. I have shot several other loads with different style cast bullets, including swaged lead, without issue in it. Sometimes finding the right combo takes time in some guns.

PS: I also tried some of Rim Rock's 158gr L-SWC-GC, BHN-5 (they recommend a max of 1150fps with this) bullets. Using 357 cases with Power Pistol & 2400 they performed without issue.

.

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"Sold it" says something of the integrity of used guns, doesn't it? Personally, I accept my fate and pay my gunsmith to fix it or advise sending in for warranty repair. The frustration occurs when it comes back with some issues labeled "in spec".

I have no idea what you are trying to imply. Buyer knew of the problem before he bought it. At the time, I did not know what the issue was. I started a thread about it and came to a conclusion but that is about it. I'm not a gunsmith and neither was he. Since we both do not know for sure if the throat was on the tight side, it is just speculation. Gunsmiths cost money and being that I live in a state with stupid laws, it would cost me money to have it fixed and shipped to my dealer. Not worth it. Let someone in a free state have it fixed.

James

My 629-6 still leads with any naked lead no matter the hardness or the lube used. Early on I was using a terrible .44 magnum bullet mold and probably too soft of an alloy so of course the leading was ten times worse. I bought better molds and cast with harder alloys to include water dropping and aging the lead for a few months and while it got better it never went away. My other .44 is a 29-5 and the worst leading I would get from the same ammo was the early on stuff. Everything later on might leave a smear or two here and there but mostly lead free.

Then I shot my first powder coated bullets. No more lead ever again.

I actually got the gun in question and was well aware of the leading problems before hand.

I had the same problem emailed S&W for a call tag and never received any sort of reply. It was my gun and I sold it!! if someone doesn't like that tough!!

Maybe the guy implying James and I did something immoral is wealthy & retired and has time & money to "Fix" guns I am neither and don't have either. FYI I also let the local buyer know that the gun was leading up.

I wish I would have got a response from S&W I didn't.

The gun didn't work for me doesn't mean the next guy can't get it to work. Maybe it would be fine with jacketed bullets. If you don't want to take a chance on a used gun thats your business but I will do as I please with my property!!!

I have had good results with Penn Bullets cast.
Would suggest a good bullet to start with would be the 158 gr truncated cone in premium alloy.
Strongly suggest slugging at least one chamber because diameter matters with cast.

Would be guessing in this case it's not soft lead, which any of the HBWCs would be, but as you surmise next, the powder is "plasme cutting" the bullet bases. Could be too hot a charge (I don't use BE, but the spec above seems OK), or a mismatch of throat to barrel (either too big or small), or maybe a bad rough forcing cone. Or, very possibly, your reloading dies size the cases too much and they are squeezing the bullets well undersize. Can't be avoided with some cases, as the webs are thicker in many. Best brass to use is often from factory WC loads. Which might be a good test. See what the now "premium priced" major factory WC match loads do as a baseline. If no leading, then it's not the gun...

Frixell's usual recommendation for leading in this area is to use a slower powder. Works for me almost always, but HBWCs are a twitchy bunch. You might eliminate the leading but have wretched accuracy.

As stated above, it sometimes takes lots of trials to find the best solution

Like you I have experience horrible leading with my model 620, which features an ECM barrel. The ammunition used was Blazer LRN in 38 special and 50 rounds left the barrel so badly leaded that I would be concerned about a squib if a jacketed bullet had been shot into that mess. It took me a full 12 hours of scrubbing to get the barrel cleaned out. What I've been told is that you can shoot lead bullets provided the correct lube is used. Unfortunately I do no know what that lube is. My response has to been to only use plated or jacketed bullets in my 620.

More recently I've tested Berry's Hard Cast 158 grain RNFP bullets in my 1892 Winchester and Dan Wesson 15-2 with a 6 inch barrel. The driving factor for doing this is because a local gun club offers Cowboy Silhouette matches and the rules mandate the use of lead bullets. Most likely because steel targets can throw jacket materials a considerable distance from the target. Good news is that an 8.4 grain charge of Accurate #5 with this bullet yielded 1400 fps. muzzle velocity and not even a hint of leading in the barrel of my 1892. Out of my Dan Wesson the velocity was 1170 fps with no trace of leading. At some point I may test 10 or 15 rounds of this load in my 620 but to be honest I am very hesitant about doing that.

Now a not about testing for leading. It's actually quite simple but you will need to have some patches and a cleaning rod in your range bag. What you do is run a patch down the barrel and feel for any leading. If the barrel is starting to lead up you will feel the increase in drag in the leaded area and likely see that patch being shredded. When experimenting with a new load I would suggest testing after 5, then 10, then 20 rounds fired. If you make it to 20 rounds fired without any trace of leading you are good to go for a full box or two. However, I would not shoot 100 rounds of lead without cleaning the barrel for any reason, once leading starts it will grab more lead with each shot fired.

All this indignation is a bit unfair, since the details about the integrity of any sales are being provided ex post facto.

Western Bullets has some gas check designs.

I’d strongly disagree with that statement. Energy from “exploding” the slug is subtracted from what might be applied to the steel. The only way that close to 100% energy transfer could occur is if the slug imbedded itself in the metal with near 100% weight retention. Don

Granted, there would be a negligible energy transfer loss equal to the mass and velocity of particles deflected from the target.

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My barrel is extremely tight might be .354-.355, not positive just been experimenting seeing what size bullets enter the barrel forcing cone area easiest.

The cylinder throats on the other hand id estimate them to be about .3575, seeing that i can push a .358 soft lead bullet through it with a wooden dowel and very little force. Is it common practice to have the barrel itself reamed to a larger diameter? Of course Id do the cylinder at the same time so I get a little squeeze going out the cylinder throat and a little more squeeze entering the barrel..

Maybe I should give some lead 9mm bullets a try? through theyd fall right through the cylinder throat and kind of defeat the purpose of match bullet size to cylinder throats then downsizing a bit into the barrel forcing cone.

I emailed S&W and they said to not use lead bullets in the gun. They didnt give a reason why though..

Thanks guys, some great info and resource here. I've not given up yet and will keep updating. You guys are all very knowledgeable!

Thanks jaymoore, you consistently have very good detailed advice! Think I should just try some gas checked lead bullets and see if that stops the leading? Id imagine if it is cutting, that gas checks would mostly solve that problem.

Ill also give the unique a try instead of bullseye next time. Since (ive heard) its a tad slower, maybe it will help.

=Tjw

You can't tell that way. You need to drive a soft slug thru the bbl. to measure the groove diameter (~.357"). The bore diameter should be about .345", which mine is.

.

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Im guessing you mean .345", hopefully ha. Ive got plans to try to do that and measure over the w eekend. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That tells me something.

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Bullets that are swaged instead of cast are very soft and only good for velocities up to about 1000 fps max. Getting near 1100 fps they lead badly. They generally make great target rounds at low velocities.

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Yes I understand, but i was actually using the minimum and even a little below minimum powder charges with these wadcutters. Which is the only thing making me second guess the leading is caused by gas blow-by blowing debris off the bullets.

They were the most accurate bullets ive loaded to date though Very unfortunately..

Wow I had no idea! I would have spent the few extra hundred if I knew. From now on im only buying pre-lock or performance center guns.

Being pre-lock doesn't ensure that the bore won't be ECM generated. I've some from the late '90s that have ECM bores. One that comes to mind immediately is a 1997 657 Classic Hunter. Which shoots medium hard cast bullets on top of large amount of H110 quite well, and with minimal deposits.

I must say that even my cut rifled barrels' forcing cones usually will eventually fill with vaporized lead. I usually let it be until chunks start spalling off, but only for uniformity in gas leakage. The bullets don't actually touch the larger parts of the forcing cone, but where they do make contact, there's no build up for several hundreds of rounds using WW231.

If you can recover some bullets, look for damage due to gas blowby from the base forward. Have some photos, but they didn't come out as well as could be desired. On hand for viewing if you want, though.

ETA: This one's not toooo bad. The gas cutting is bad, but the photo's barely passable...




Swaged bullet using fast powder, and not a tight fit in the throat. Note the eroded area from the base forward to just forward of the cannulure. Will lead things up every time. Fast or slow velocity. Hard or soft bullet, but "hard" is worse when midrange loads are used. Leakage=bad.

Just a follow-up, I just loaded up a range of Green Dot & Unique for these RR 155gr L-DEWC to find what works. I also shot some swaged bullets (HBWC & SWC) loads that I loaded years before I got the 686+. Bottom line, they all leaded the barrel just past the forcing cone. (Guess I remembered wrong.) Some a little better than others but nothing ideal. A closer look at the forcing cone, & it's roughness, points to the likely culprit. Seems like it's always something.

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Thanks for chiming in BLUEDOT37. Its nice to hear I'm not alone haha. Yes this leading with the 686 is a total PITA, in fact its enough for me to confirm I will not be buying any newer S&W revolvers in the near future (well- maybe a 929 or 986..); I'm sticking to the used Smith's that used the original method for cutting rifling. No more EDM.

I'm going to play around with some lead in the near future, but I'm going to be a bit picky about how I do it. Id like to try some .38 & .357 mag loads w/ 180g hard cast with gas checks and see if the gas checks help at all. Like I said- I think the leading in my case is from the flame or gasses cutting the back of the soft lead wadcutters I was using, and depositing to the start of the barrel. So, I'm curious about the gas checks, will report back.

I feel like I'm missing out an a whole 'nother world out there not being able to play with cast. It's quite unfortunate, but on the flip side this is my first S&W, I'm glad I haven't wasted a bunch of money buying new Smith's only to find this problem with the EDM/newer models.

Jaymoore, is it possible that I was getting leading because I was running my wadcutters too slow (650-700 fps)? I was unsure of the lube that was on my wadcutters that leaded my barrel up. I thought the lube might be adequate for slow speeds, since they were on wadcutters and everyone knows they are loaded lighter, usually.

I'm just trying to check any possible variables off to come up with an answer as to why I leaded up so badly.

Wadcutters I have used in 38 S&W Special aren't even particularly sticky, let alone have a band for holding lube. I would suggest trying some alox or other light coating lube. Also try to locate coated bullets. Missouri Bullet is steadily introducing bullets with their new coating. I have a batch of their Keith bullets for 44 Magnum. There are other vendors too.

The coatings- is it noticable the less lead fouling between cast lubed vs. the coated bullets? Im wondering what I'd be better off trying- gas checked or coating bullets.. Any idea? Could one go as far to say that gas checks are becoming obsolete due to the introduction of coated bullets?

Are there any drawbacks to using coated bullets (reloading process, fouling?)?

I think of gas checks as only for high velocity, hot loads, minimizing blow-by. Routine use of lead bullets at target velocities for me would be a call for coating just to reduce ordinary fouling.