It's a NY thing, that's all. Only gun guys like us even notice the revolver and leather. And if the job was so concerned with image, they should start by firing all obese cops, cops with dreadlocks and corn rows, cops with turbans, cops under 5'6, and taking about 75% of the patrol vehicles out of service and condemning about 90% of the station houses, some of them over 100 years old! They can't tell a cop his leather gear doesn't meet department standards as he stands roll call in a dilapidated station house and goes out on patrol in a car with 150,000 miles on it and milk crates wedged behind the seats to prevent them from falling backwards as you sit in them. The huge population of illegals and welfare recipients who pay no taxes not to mention drawing on huge amounts of public assistance means less money to spend on those things

And as a native NY'er and retired member of the NYPD, I see nothing wrong with that sgt and neither do the vast majority of NYC residents.

When you work at the central park precinct , I guess its OK to carry mod 10, where crime is nil and it a pleasure to go to work everyday. I guess he can be a 30 year hairbag. If it was anywhere else he'd be a liability to his subordinates when he has to step to his left, open cylinder, transfer gun to left hand, dump emptys remove his speedloader s , load and transfer gun back to the right and return fire... I would not ride with anyone like that.

Yep. Worn holster. Complete liability to everyone. On the other hand a shiny new one says you are the best cop there is! Or shiny new holster says you have no experience nothing you have is used. All shiny and new, like it never left the office.

Central Park does get plenty of crime.

I know guys who can shoot and reload wheel guns in circles around guys with semi autos. All depends on how you train. At 10 yards I can shoot six reload and put six more in the x ring in well under 20 seconds. It's not that hard if you practice. I also train with a semi auto. Just train. It's that simple really.

Pretty funny you would pick your partner based on what he looks like. I know lots of guys who looked like razor blades standing at roll call and were useless in a fight... But i guess you go with the "judge the cover" thing...

I worked with a cop in the south bronx who had TWO combat crosses (awarded for winning a gunfight, rare to see guys on the job with one, someone with two is a unicorn, so take a picture) and he looked like the sgt in the picture. He had a rack of citations and medals going up to his shoulder and was the first one to show up when you called for backup.
Oh and did I mention he carried a revolver and could probably outshoot most guys in the department on a combat course?

Good luck with the rookie with the polished up leather, I'd rather ride with a well worn old school cop any day...

The only reason I would be concerning about the leather is that leather can break on you. Holsters have been known to break and leave the gun on the seat in the car. Holsters have fallen off when running or walking. Belts can break. Would be a bit of a problem to reach for a gun and not have it there. Recently had a good quality belt break at the buckle. It was about 4-5 years old and I knew it was getting a little soft. I do admit I am rough on leather goods. Inspect them often.

Here's my .02 cents, just for the heck of it. IMO, my S&W M-64 4" HB DAO is one of my best defensive weapon's out of a stable of many. I may because I had to qualify with one regularly for quite a few years, & it manages to get under your skin so to speak. My muscle memory is so ingrained in me that my old 64 almost operates itself. Loaded with proper ammunition, there is nothing wrong with a .38 Special +P for self defense use. ( Note that I said self defense, not on duty / LE useage. For that purpose, I'd much prefer better ballistics which to handle the greater arena of situations that may occur within law enforcement scenarios. ) Although a great many folks claim that revolvers are on their way out, all of the major manufacturers continue to produce & sell them. Although I have a great many new generation auto pistols to carry, many times I still prefer the simplicity of a good little revolver to keep me safe. Oh well, just my .02 cents for what it's worth, if anything ?

Best, dpast32

*
Oh gawd. There is nothing you can do with a command staff like that except a Loudermill hearing, trespass notice, boot in the backside, and a guardianship proceeding. "Ahead full stupid" is not leadership, and policies and training must be driven only objective analysis of the legal foundations of LE authority and mission based tactics. The most image conscious agency in this state is also the most corrupt and has the worst tort and civil rights litigation and settlement records by far.

LE is not a people pleasing business, and it is not an image driven business. It is a coercive compliance business, with a basis and support for that position in law going back hundreds of years. Failure to recognize that and act accordingly, including doing the best one can to educate the public about this, is dereliction per se and proof positive of unfitness for duty. I was not kidding about the appropriate response to command personnel who stink that much.

As for the comments from Dirtywaterdog, I can't disagree more. First off, one cannot make an appointment for an emergency, and Central Park is no less potentially dangerous than any other part of any other urban area. Second, calling that Sergeant a hairbag because he does not resemble a recruiting poster for some other setting is unjustifiable. I'd be willing to bet that I'd take him to a mess long before I'd take a lot of other cops, and that if I called the cops as a citizen in need of real help with a real problem, he's the kind of guy I'd want to see. As I said before, I would not want to carry a revolver today based on my own skill levels with one. Further, I've done most of my LE time in rural small towns and isolated areas. High capacity and lots of ammo are my friends. Some years back, my agency had to have ammo runs made from the armory to officers in a standoff. That said, I am certain he is carrying at least 2 revolvers, and maybe 3. He has the look of a guy who has developed proficiency (likely in spite of NYPD) and the right mindset about conflict. There is also the reality that in most of NYC, a request for assistance will result in more cops in 60 seconds or less than I had on my entire shift in a county of 2300 or square miles.

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NHI, 10-8.

Guess we'll agree to disagree about the importance of having public support. No one is saying you have to bend over and certainly not that we stop doing our job because of a perception issue. So, you can come to whatever conclusion you want regarding how management would handle such issues, but public perception goes hand in hand with acceptance and cooperation. Your comment about the "most image conscious" agency in your State doesn't make it so for the rest of us. Save the "Oh, Gawd" BS for those who are impressed by it. If your command staff sees it your way, that's their problem.

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Dave Frost

It's the manner in which public support is sought that is of concern to me. LE in general does a lousy job of getting the information out. What I see most is the general public working from a position of ignorance and management being too cowardly to educate them. I have seen too many situations in which professional conduct and competence are sold out to make happy people who don't know what they don't know.

I am personally aware right now of two situations in two different parts of the country in which friends are involved (one a soon to be plaintiff, the other as an expert witness) where agency heads have created significant liability by taking the path of least resistance. What I am referring to is doing the wrong thing in spite of the law and the facts because loud groups of people who may be well intentioned but are just wrong screamed about something that was properly done that they did not like. These are multi-million dollar problems that simply cannot be defended. These are not isolated incidents. Abuse of employees is so bad that between 2009-2012, NJ agencies paid more to cops than they did to private citizens in litigation over misconduct, and my colleagues who are involved in such areas of practice consider it likely that is true across the country. I know of an agency that is so bad at personnel actions that they have had 32 of the last 33 reversed because of incompetence and misconduct at the command level.

That sort of thing really bugs me, as a taxpayer, as a litigator, and as a (retired) LEO.

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NHI, 10-8.

I saw a group of Mass State Police officers last weekend. One white haired older officer had a revolver, the rosewood target grip caught my eye.

Worked with NYPD in the '90s (Child Abuse Unit). Never cared what they wore: I was always glad to see them. As for crime in Central Park, I do seem to recall a certain jogger. But that's another story.

Doug:

As a retired cop of 37 years, I have seen some of what you speak of, and I agree that law enforcement in general could do a better job of educating the public on the whys and wherefores of our procedures. I worked for two different departments in my career. The first 16 years, I worked for a smaller sized agency of 25 sworn in a small city a county over from my home. Like any city, there were issues that brought fire from the public. There were demands that certain information be provided that could not legally be released by law or due to a still active investigation. As a result, the public was advised of this, but generally refused to hear the reasons. However, the officers were never hung out to dry; the department and Chief stood behind them. I left that department as second in command and was being recruited for Chief, but had already decided to go home. I spent 7 years as an
Officer, 9 years as a Sergeant with 6 years of that in charge of a division (small department, as I said).

I came home to the department from which I recently retired in my hometown. I started all over again as an Officer for 6 years, a Corporal for 6 years, a Sergeant for 6 years and a Lieutenant for 3 years. As you might guess from this information, I saw both sides of the superior/subordinate lines. As an Officer, I was involved in a situation with my entire watch in which suspect died (the result of swallowing cocaine, not unnecessary force). Jesse Jackson came to town and there was civil unrest for several weeks, until the post mortem results were released and the FBI initiated their investigation for civil rights violations. During the entire sequence of events, the City government and most citizens, the Chief and the department stood behind us (unlike the current state of affairs in Ferguson, Missouri, although I haven't heard how the Chief and City government are reacting to the actions of the Federal and State governments). We were ultimately cleared of any wrong-doing.

The point is this; your experience seems to have led you to paint law enforcement leadership with a broad brush. There is a huge difference between what my partners and I went through and dealing with an issue of policy, discipline or morale. In our case, public support was gained through the actions of the Chief of Police and the City Administration, and no one was unduly punished or charged. But, if we don't hold ourselves to a higher standard in all areas of concern, how can we expect the public not to see us unprofessional or hypocrites? I will still agree that the NYPD Sergeant in the photo is probably a Hell of a cop. He looks like he's been around the block, but I'll never agree with the image that such poorly maintained uniforms and equipment leave with the public, and I don't see that as pandering to anybody.

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Dave Frost

Consider that this patrol shift does not have inspections ?

I think you guys are over looking the obvious. These two officers are night shift guys who got held over. From my experience, the rules are a bit "different" on the night shift.

The Sgt is on the phone explaining to the boss, aka his wife, that he can't get home because he's being held because of the stupid bike enforcement thing. She's yelling back that she can't take Sally to her dance recital and Jimmy to baseball.

The patrol officer just wants to get the LT off his back by writing enough citations to show that this sort of crime busting is exactly why he wanted to be a police officer. Who wants to arrest felons when you can write a citation to a guy who looks like he's auditioning for a remake of Peter Pan?

The guy on the bike is handing over his ID so he can get his citation and be on his way. He's about five seconds away from blurting out "Aren't there any real criminals you guys can arrest?"

Is everyone satisfied now? I think I've accounted for everyone except for the dead lady. She could not be reached for comment.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

The reason for the crackdown on cyclists was that the woman who was hit (in the inset photo) got knocked over, hit her head on a rock, and died.
It wasn't a trivial matter.

Those Jay Pee holsters worked,...... weapon was retained for me at least. In my former agency it would have been noted by the Lt. inspecting you,....... " fix it or lose it ". The beard,..... looks like trash in a uniform. We had whiners who claimed they couldn't shave as it irritated their face. Too bad. You knew the regs when you signed on. Same for baseball caps in the class A. You want to wear a baseball cap,..... play baseball. It looks unprofessional. As for the leather, it doesn't look professional but does show tome on the JOB. We wore " service stripes denoting 5 years of service and after 20 or more it was nice to just point when a " slick sleave ", was whining about this or that and just tell them to can it unless they have 10 or more on the JOB. My FTO had been a NY Transit officer and my first day he inquired about my spare ammunition as he didn't see any dump pouches or loops on my gun belt. I showed him the two speed loaders and he was astonished. He carried his NYTP dump pouches and was impressed with the speed of the reload. After three weeks he still hadn't gotten any so I bought two of them for him. Great guy and good copper but a cheapskate when it came to buying things he felt the city should issue us. This was circa 1981. Times sure have changed.

Night shift guys? I dont think so. The officer with the beard looks to "refreshed". After a midnight tour, cops come into the precinct looking like extras on "The Walking Dead". I did midnights for years.

As for the Sgt. telling his wife he can't come home and Little Sally is going to have to miss ballet class, that Sgt has probably 30 years on the job. Little Sally is probably all grown up and has kids of her own. As for the wife bitching about the overtime, she ain't. she's figuring out how to spend the money and the Sgt. is increasing his pension!

I worked the night shift for 20 years, I pretty much know how things work there.

Second wife.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Interesting discussion. Sorry if I missed it but what, if any, retention system does that holster have?

A leather thumb lock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As EMS. Not PD. You guys did a great job but after the 9 Squad Chart died and guys went to steady tours, the midnight guys tended to be a certain breed. Generally guys with second jobs they worked during the day and guys with a working wife and kids who needed to be watched during the day. So partners would switch off who was awake. Driver would stay awake and answer the radio and wake the partner when they got a job. In the summer months it wasn't so great cause it was busy but in the winter months it worked out.

And before anybody criticizes, I know guys from other agencies and cooping is a regular thing if you have a partner.

But regardless of any if that, it's nice to see a real veteran with a model 10. Probably only 50 or 60 left on the job. It will be sad when they're all gone. I never carried one, that's for sure.

I'm left wondering what his bug is? Maybe has a Tommy gun IWB. For the record I don't care what a cop looks like, as long as he does his job right. Ed

Thanks Chief.

If he even has one (and lots of guys who even had off duty guns didn't use it as a backup), it would almost certainly be a Model 36. If he didn't buy one early on and got it after 5 years on the job, then maybe a 640 (.38 only) or a 60. But this guys strikes me as a blued hammer gun guy. Getting a stainless DAO would be an insult to him. Honestly, the blued hammered guns were literally a badge of honor. Roll Call would call down when a big detail was coming (major parade or whatever), and say "anybody without a hammer on your gun, you're working". Before the age of semi auto's, obviously. set the hammer guys apart from the stainless DAO revolvers.

When I got the semi auto, it came without night sights. It wasn't until about 5 years after they were standard issue that night sights were mandatory. So guys without them kind of stood out. Not as obvious as a blued Model 10, but every now and then, you'd look and see the standard sights and say "Oh. This guys got some time on".

Well, I'm glad I started this thread as I have gotten more "likes" on this one thread than in every other one I have commented on combined. Good to see so many other people liking that pic.

I wish I had the nostalgia for my own duty guns, but I don't. Started with a DAO Model 64 and then moved on to the Glock 19. Sold my 64 for $100 and don't really miss it. Glock 19 went right after retirement, for $375 for the gun and the 3 15 round mags. Pre-ban mags were OK in NY back then, and you could easily get $75 a mag. Never missed that either.

But I had my Uncle's NYPD Model 10 for about 4 years after his retirement. He gave it to me right after he retired. Never was a gun guy and had a son with a drug problem in the house and didn't want a gun around. His son (my cousin) cleaned up after 7 years ago. I saw my uncle at a rare full family function and he asked about the gun. Our conversation was basically this:

Uncle: "you still have my gun?'
Me: "yeah. Still in my safe. never shoot it though"
Uncle:"Yeah, I kinda miss that gun. Now that _______ is out of the house and clean, I need something for the house"
Me: "Yeah, it's a good gun"

So I go home and google the nearest FFL to him. I call them and get them to email my FFl their papers, and I shipped it out to him. Called him the day it arrived and said "go get your gun".

He was so happy. Said I didn't need to, but I told him it was already done. He killed one guy with that Model 10 and had another shooting besides that. NY cops were different in the 60's.

To me, it was just a nice old 10. But to him, it was everything. I think the blued revolver with the hammer just make people remember a simpler time with different moral values. Something a stainless 64 DAO and a plastic Glock just never did for me.

Black shoe polish - apply - done.

10 minutes work.

kbm6893:

That was a great thing; returning your uncle's duty revolver to him. I know, now that I'm retired, I wish I had every gun I carried over those years back; revolvers and semi-autos alike. Great thread, also. It generated a lot of discussion.

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Dave Frost

What was it you said about different cultures. I don't think Boston PD had 9 squads. I think they have six, but don't hold me to that.

When I started working in Boston the cops worked a 4 on 2 off schedule. Day guys worked straight days. Night guys worked "first" and "last" halves. Coming back from a day off, they'd be due in at midnight for a "last half". Done at 0800 and then due back at 1600 for a "first half". Unless they had court, in which case they went to court and then back in to work. Then 24 hours off and back in for the same thing. Then two days off. That all went away some time back and now it's straight shifts, what ever shift you are on.

They also lost all two officer cars back in 1982. Now they have a mix of one and two officer cars.

EMS was way different. All of the senior guys wanted nights because back then you could get 5-7 hours of sleep on nights. No sleeping quarters, but all of the stations had couches. As long as you answered the radio and responded to the call, no one much cared. If a crew missed a call, the supervisor would send them to a nice fixed post in the middle of no where and that's where they would take their calls from. Much different culture and operation than NYC*EMS, which was more police like in that they had roll call and then out to their posts. Our two agencies have been pretty close over the years. Good guys who get pooped upon by the city. But that's a different story.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

The bearded officer has something in a flap pouch by his radio. Is that Mace, a knife, or a spare pistol magazine?

Looks too long for most magazines and folding knives.

It looks like it's the carrier for his collapsible baton.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

About 40 years ago there was an article in a now-defunct cop rag entitled "Real Cops Don't Eat Donuts" which included advice on how to tell a veteran from a rookie. Part of the analysis was that the vet's hat had "that 50-missions look" because it had seen 50 missions.
I think the Sgt's gear saw duty with Merrill's Marauders.

My department recognized the worn grips, holster-worn blue and the spots where the basket weave was worn slick as the uniform equivalent of gray hair, but everything was required to be in working order and leather polished. Truth to tell, polishing had as much to do with the worn basket weave as use did.

Regional thing.

FWIW, the last revolver on that department was a 6" Model 28 carried by a Sgt. who retired about 5 years ago.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

Looks like a flashlight. I had a streamlight stinger in the exact same leather holster when I was in the NYPD. the holster for the baton is different.

Hey kbm, thanks for the picture and all the back-and-forth that went with it. As I said earlier, I grew up back East and remember walking the beat with a distant cousin, listening to the radio (a new thing in the 60's for those guys) and all the war stories. Here I am now, retired after 35 years with Denver, so it's fun to read your take on things. Enjoy your retirement, I know I am!

I give him props for having factory woods on that Model 10

I see nothing wrong with the guys uniform, you should see some of the slobs that pass for cops around where I live. One guy I saw looked like he just came off a 5 day bender lol

Thanks! Still working though! Working on a second pension as a high school teacher!

The "real" super cops are in Beverly Hills.

That's a funny thing; we all have differing attitudes regarding it. I came on in 1978 and was issued two NIB M-66s; a four inch and a 2.5" RB. I carried the four incher my first ten years on the road. I was made an adjunct (not assigned to the HQ FTU, I remained at an out-lying troop in other words) instructor in 1987, and was in on the ground floor of our initial explorations into semi-auto transition... and bought a personal P226 in 1988. Then next year I transferred down here, became a permanent FTU member, and began carrying that Sig as part of the evaluation process.

But I hung on to those revolvers my entire 28.5 years on the job, and was allowed to purchase them when I retired. They remain useful as "stash" guns, but I have no particular sentimental attachment to them, other than they will be passed down to grandsons and never sold (by me, anyway).

Just this past week-end, the four incher was brought to the range so grandson #1's girl friend could shoot something she's familiar with. It was kind of cool having that old warrior in my hand again (it stays on the wife's side of the bed and I haven't touched it in years)... but when I got home and began to clean it, I recalled WHY I haven't shot it in I-cannot-remember-when.

Properly cleaning a revolver is a time-consuming PITA.

I still have the first G19 I purchased in 1992 (and carried for a while), but every other piece I carried as a uniform holster gun during my career has been sold/traded.

Tools, and all of that...

.

You guys crack me up.

Every department has a different set of values and standards when it comes to appearance and just about everything else.

Some departments are starched uniforms with clarino leather. Some (most big cities) have a well worn look like these guys.

I see nothing wrong with the way either of these guys look. Especially for the city they work in.

You end up getting attached to your equipment and how you wear it. My department wears wool and my usual uniform is a wool longsleeve with the sleeves rolled up to just below the elbow (against regulations) and I carry a customized Colt 1911.

I'm currently assigned as a K9 handler and wear a black tac uniform and am carrying a Glock 17 (so I can have a Surefire X300 with DG switch). I have to wear the outfit and carry that gun because of what I'm working as. As soon as I'm done being a handler I'll go right back to wools and the worn blued Colt.

On a side note, if you've never felt the trigger pull on an NYPD spec Glock 19 then maybe you don't understand why this guy would keep his Model 10. They're horrible! I would feel better armed with a Model 10 and a couple speedloaders.

Around here............ an officer will be cut a lot of slack because he has earned it, for his actions/history on duty or off..... This officer is both clean & neat............. I'd rather have a good man who looks like this as a partner........... than to be partnered with a "clothes horse/model" who is a coward, an idiot with no common sense or is a jerk who only antagonizes every civilian he comes in contact with..........Give me a good man every time.............because I know he'll cover my back.......... & not cause us problems............. Just an old man's thoughts............

How much effort does it take to shine up the leather at the time you shine your shoes? Shows lack of attention to detail to me...silverback or not.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I like salty old big city cops, they're the types that have pulled me over for speeding and let me go because I'm a CO or because I have vet plates.

They have the time in to do pretty much whatever they want, they've been they're and done that, they don't care if their duty gear is worn or what anyone thinks of their appearance.

Yo! Has anyone thought to try contacting the photographer?

Photo: Robert Miller

That might has saved a lot of speculation, guessing, judging etc.

Starting with the New York Post might work.

I am at post #100 so someone may have already gone this route and reported back.

Don't we have any detectives on this Forum?

Back to the thread @ 101


EDIT: Found an email address for him. Will let you know if he responds.

I am 60 years young and I still carry a revolver. A M64. 64-1 in all 3 barrel lengths 2,3,and 4 inch barrels. My 2 semi-auto pistols,stay in the safe.

Yup. I'll take a good man too. But I'll take the one that takes pride in his appearance as well. Just as you perceive a "clothes horse/model" as a coward or liability, I perceive the sloppy officer as the same thing. We will agree to disagree. You perceive him as a revered officer that has earned the right to let his duty gear go. I perceive him as the opposite. He may have earned the Medal of Valor, or, he could just be a 30+ year disgruntled cop that just doesn't give a **** anymore. I don't know the guy - neither does anyone else. There are plenty of great officers that take the time to get shined up. My dad served 3 tours in Vietnam, won a Silver and Bronze Star & Purple Heart. He then served on a local police dept with distinction for 25 years. He shined his leather & brass before every shift.

Can I give multiple "likes" to koz5614? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I like Revolvers vey much and actually carry one myself (I am NOT a LEO) . That said........ IF I WERE a NYPD Officer I'd carry the highest capacity most reliable Auto they would allow me to. IMHO as a LEO in NYC 6 shots are simply not enough these days!

The Sergeant in the photo is a very rare Bird now days. I live only 50 miles from the City and the last time I've personally seen a a NYPD carrying a Revolver was about 3 years ago at the Ball Park. I'd bet there are only a handful of old timers left doing so.

Long guns of any type are not common in NYPD, and a shotgun is a specialized weapon to which a patrol carbine w/short barrel, light, and aimpoint is far superior. As for the references to "militarization" in this and other threads, I dare not touch them, for they are so wrong my blood pressure will go through the ceiling. Mr. Balko is an ignorant moonbat on the best day he ever had, and should get no more attention from reasonable people than if he were still proclaiming the world to be flat.

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NHI, 10-8.

Don't worry, those same morons will be screaming about how the police weren't prepared if there ever is a Mumbai style attack on a US city. Which is one of the things that the enemy would love to do.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Truth.

Heck, I know of agencies where even suggesting that such is possible is akin to advocating for sex offenders. There will be such an event, and very few individual officers, and no agencies, will be prepared.

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NHI, 10-8.