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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 10-26-2014, 01:15 PM
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Default Yes, another CG/endshake question

Piece: 460v

I am trying to find some definitive info on CG and endshake for my 460v. I have measured and found I have .009" CG which seems to be within acceptable parameters from what I am able to find.

What worries me a bit is that I seem to have .005" endshake. I was cleaning it today and noticed it seemed to have more endshake than my other revolvers. That prompted me to do some checks with my feeler gauges.

Do I have cause for concern here with .005" end shake? It feels like it is too much....
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Old 10-26-2014, 01:25 PM
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Endshake should be barely perceptible if at all. While there are 2 methods of correction, yoke stretching and shimming, shimming is most practical. Go to Brownell's and purchase a packet of .002 "Power Custom" cylinder bearings. If the gun will take 2 and the cylinder still rotates freely then install 2. If not, then use 1 until there is enough additional wear to need another.

.005" is far too much endshake. With this much it will increase rapidly if the gun is fired much.
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Old 10-26-2014, 01:42 PM
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Thank you... it did seem excessive to me as well. But it seems that finding some definitive specs on this is a bit difficult. I just emailed S&W to see what they say. Unfortunately I am the second owner of this 460 so I get no warrantee.

Now the 460 cylinder yoke is a bit different than other revolvers with its front yoke ball detent. Will shims still work on this type of cylinder with the skinny extractor rod?

And shims would space the cylinder rearward correct? In other words, shims do not change cylinder gap measurement, just end shake?

Thank you for the info.
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Old 10-26-2014, 03:20 PM
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I have read of warranty service for 2nd owners.
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Old 10-26-2014, 04:01 PM
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If you want S&W to correct the endshake, call them and simply say you have a revolver with endshake and would like to get it repaired; they may treat you as the original owner and fix it under warranty -- this has happened to several members here. I wouldn't lie to them, just see if they offer; if they don't, you're no worse off.

According to Kuhnhausen's S&W shop manual, endshake needs to be corrected once it reaches .006"; you're close enough at .005", especially since it a big caliber handgun. Get it fixed.

If you go the shim route, make sure you have a little endshake dialed in at finish -- about .001" is considered ideal. Folks who dial it to zero sometimes cause binding issues. A teensy bit of slop in our revolvers increases reliability.

Know that shims will work, but they're not considered the factory correct way to repair endshake; stretching the yoke is. Kuhnhausen does say that a perhaps ideal solution to endshake is stretching the yoke to .003" endshake, then shimming with a .002" shim to get .001" endshake, as rotation on an oiled shim might be a bit smoother.

Your .009" forcing cone/barrel gap is within current S&W spec, which goes out to .012"; in the old days the cutoff was .010". I wouldn't worry about the cost and trouble of reducing it until you have other reasons to have the barrel off, or the gap expands to where shaving and spitting is occurring when you fire.

And yes, repairing endshake -- whichever method used -- places the cylinder rearward and has no influence on correctly measured b/c gap.
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Old 10-26-2014, 08:45 PM
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Thank you again for the insight Hapworth.

I did disclose that I am not the first owner in the email I sent to Smith. It would be really nice if they take care of it under warrantee, but I certainly make no demand for it and would not think less of them if they didn't. So now I wait for a reply from Smith..

Meantime, I was talking to my brother about my situation. He asked me to check gap and endshake on his 500. He has .005" gap and .002-.003" endshake best I can tell. My smallest feeler gauge is .003 and it wouldn't quite go in there. Brother is happy, I am jealous! LOL!

Being I bought my 460 used I looked more closely at it. It really doesn't show signs of a revolver that has had thousands of rounds run through it. Since I have owned it (Dec 24'th of 2013) I don't think I have put 200 rounds through it. I may be wrong, but I think this might have left the factory with a bit more endshake than typical. Not saying it left with the .005" it has... but if it was already at .003.004 I don't imagine it would take a heck of alot to open it up .001" to where it is now.... Just thinking out loud
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Old 10-28-2014, 01:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RIDE-RED 350r
...And shims would space the cylinder rearward correct? In other words, shims do not change cylinder gap measurement, just end shake?

...Being I bought my 460 used I looked more closely at it. It really doesn't show signs of a revolver that has had thousands of rounds run through it. Since I have owned it (Dec 24'th of 2013) I don't think I have put 200 rounds through it. I may be wrong, but I think this might have left the factory with a bit more endshake than typical. Not saying it left with the .005" it has... but if it was already at .003.004 I don't imagine it would take a heck of alot to open it up .001" to where it is now.... Just thinking out loud
I fixed a couple N frames with excessive end-shake using the cylinder shims. Easy job. I'm guessing the X frames shims are bigger, but I haven't looked.

If I remember right, once the shims are in & you have no more end-shake play, the new B/C gap is then what the total of the old B/C gap & end-shake play were combined before. Technically you can say it's larger, but practically it's the same.

I got my PC 460 Carry used & the original owner assured me it only had 35 rounds thru it. I don't doubt him but I did notice some end-shake. Mine has .004" of B/C gap with an additional .002" end-shake = .006" total. I would have thought a PC gun would have been tight from the start. With the pounding of the 460 Mag it's probably something that needs watching, no matter what.

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Old 10-28-2014, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
...If I remember right, once the shims are in & you have no more end-shake play, the new B/C gap is then what the total of the old B/C gap & end-shake play were combined before. Technically you can say it's larger, but practically it's the same.

I got my PC 460 Carry used & the original owner assured me it only had 35 rounds thru it. I don't doubt him but I did notice some end-shake. Mine has .004" of B/C gap with an additional .002" end-shake = .006" total...
Fixing endshake doesn't affect correctly measured barrel-cylinder gap. B-c gap is measured with the cylinder held rearward; fixing endshake moves and keeps the cylinder rearward in the same manner that the cylinder is held there by hand when measuring gap.
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Old 10-28-2014, 08:38 PM
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OK, so I got a reply from a S&W representative in a timely manner as promised by the initial reply... In the interest of informing others who may have the question of S&W's specs on these measurements I will post it here:

Copy and pasted from my email:

"Dear Joe,

The BC gap is .004 to .010, end shake of .005 is excessive.

Smith & Wesson values all of its consumers and are happy to have assisted you to the best of our ability today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.

Sincerely,

Paul G"

So, there you have it. Doesn't look like they will extend warrantee service to me. Obviously I am a little disapointed, but I am certainly not upset by this as I am not the original owner and their warrantee policy is clear...

So, on to how I go about fixing this.

I replied to that email asking Paul to provide me an estimate on what S&W would likely charge for such service. Just sent that email moments ago, so I am awaiting an answer.

But I am a very mechanical person. Have rebuilt my share of ATC 250r's over the years and just a few months ago I rebuilt my first rear end...a GM 12 bolt truck axle.. And that hasn't grenaded yet! So, I am not at all intimidated by a little job like this. I just want to make sure I can acquire compatible parts. Which brings me to my next point.

As to the shims... On Brownells they list the shim kit for K, L, and N frames only for one kit, then a J frame only kit... No mention of X frame. I am not sure the K,L,N kit will work. The X frame has a floating gas ring (I think that is what it is called) and the cylinder does not just slide off the yoke when you remove the cylinder/yoke assembly from the frame. I have not attempted to unscrew the extractor rod nut just yet. Been out hunting alot these last few days. My 629 Classic has been seeing the most holster time in the woods due to this end shake issue on my 460....

So, does anyone here have any experience in shimming an X-frame cylinder??? Pointers?? And if so, can you tell me if the K,L,N frame shim kit works or not?

Thanks again for all the input gents.

Last edited by RIDE-RED 350r; 10-28-2014 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 10-29-2014, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Hapworth View Post
Fixing endshake doesn't affect correctly measured barrel-cylinder gap. B-c gap is measured with the cylinder held rearward; fixing endshake moves and keeps the cylinder rearward in the same manner that the cylinder is held there by hand when measuring gap.
The correct way to measure B/C gap is to hold/block the cylinder forward. This measurement (A), between the cylinder face & the barrel, is the actual B/C gap. Next you allow the cylinder free movement rearward & measure (B) the gap again. You subtract the first measurement from this measurement & that's the cylinder's end-shake/end-play (C). For me, B: .006" (-) A: .004" = C: .002".

The shims, if used, go between the yoke's barrel face & the cylinder's yoke barrel tunnel, spacing the cylinder rearward by the thickness of the shims. If you removed all the play (actually you try to keep .001" play) when you remeasure, per above, you'll get the same reading both times, which will be the same as (B) above, which is larger than (A).

.
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Old 10-29-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BLUEDOT37 View Post
The correct way to measure B/C gap is to hold/block the cylinder forward. This measurement (A), between the cylinder face & the barrel, is the actual B/C gap. Next you allow the cylinder free movement rearward & measure (B) the gap again. You subtract the first measurement from this measurement & that's the cylinder's end-shake/end-play (C). For me, B: .006" (-) A: .004" = C: .002".

The shims, if used, go between the yoke's barrel face & the cylinder's yoke barrel tunnel, spacing the cylinder rearward by the thickness of the shims. If you removed all the play (actually you try to keep .001" play) when you remeasure, per above, you'll get the same reading both times, which will be the same as (B) above, which is larger than (A).

.
Politely, no. Barrel-cylinder gap is a single measurement performed holding the cylinder rearward.

You've described how to measure and correct endshake.

Barrel-cylinder gap is measured with the cylinder held rearward because under ignition the cylinder moves rearward; the bullet exits the charge hole and enters the forcing cone during the cylinder's rearward momentum, when the b-c gap is at its greatest; because of the ballistic effects of b-c gap, its necessary to measure it at its greatest amount, not its least (held forward), to properly assess its influence.
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Old 10-29-2014, 09:01 PM
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Well, I received an answer to my request for an estimate on the cost of the repair...

Here it is, copy/pasted from my email:

"Dear Customer,

We would probably cover that under warranty. If it were a charge, I would guess around 1/2 hour labor 50.00 plus shipping.

Smith & Wesson values all of its consumers and are happy to have assisted you to the best of our ability today. Please do not hesitate to contact us should you require further assistance.

Sincerely,

Steve"


So, it sounds like they may warrantee this. That would be terrific!
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Old 10-31-2014, 12:51 AM
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You've described how to measure and correct endshake.
What I tried to describe is that B/C gap can be comprised of two components. If you don't (know to) look, you never will know.

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Old 10-31-2014, 10:24 AM
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What I tried to describe is that B/C gap can be comprised of two components. If you don't (know to) look, you never will know.
Forgive me for being slow -- could you elaborate on B/C gap being comprised of two components? I don't follow the statement.

What I do follow is that you said the correct way to measure B/C gap is with the cylinder held forward and that the measurement between the forcing cone and cylinder with the cylinder held forward is actual B/C gap -- and it isn't; that's the exact opposite of actual B/C gap.
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Old 10-31-2014, 03:42 PM
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Well, Smith sent me an email requesting some information from me so they can send a pre-paid, pre-insured shipping label. They ask that I send it to them so they can evaluate the issue and if it is deemed not covered under warrantee they will provide me an estimate.

So, I'll send her on back home and see what they say.

So far I am very satisfied with the timeliness of the replies from their customer service reps.

Will update when I get word on the diagnosis and determination of coverage or not.....

Question: does this have to be shipped to S&W via an FFL? It seems as though I have read/heard that a customer can send a firearm to the factory for repair without an FFL. Also, when they send it back to me, does it have to go through an FFL? I'm just fuzzy on the answers to these questions...

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Old 10-31-2014, 03:56 PM
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Question: does this have to be shipped to S&W via an FFL? It seems as though I have read/heard that a customer can send a firearm to the factory for repair without an FFL. Also, when they send it back to me, does it have to go through an FFL? I'm just fuzzy on the answers to these questions...
Firearms can legally be sent by the owner directly to the manufacturer, and can be received directly from the manufacturer, without the FFL-to-FFL requirement of some firearms shipments or transfers.

If they give you a shipping label, S&W will likely also provide a detailed set of instructions regarding proper packing and sending; if not, ask what methods they prefer.
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Old 10-31-2014, 04:02 PM
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Thank you for that answer.. I thought that might be the case but was not sure and did not want to commit an federal felony. I have never returned a firearm to the factory before.

I still have the giant blue box it came in, so that should facilitate easy packaging for shipping... along with something to put it in and disguise it so it's not screaming "I'm a handgun, steal me!!" to every person along the way who handles it....
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Old 10-31-2014, 04:31 PM
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Thank you for that answer.. I thought that might be the case but was not sure and did not want to commit an federal felony. I have never returned a firearm to the factory before.

I still have the giant blue box it came in, so that should facilitate easy packaging for shipping... along with something to put it in and disguise it so it's not screaming "I'm a handgun, steal me!!" to every person along the way who handles it....
Don't send anything with your revolver you're not willing to lose: boxes, expensive grips, modifications, plush leather gun rug, etc...
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:55 AM
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Default Warranty shipping

Red, I used the S&W blue box to send both of mine back, & they made it back okay, but you know how things can work. (Your's came in a blue box? My 460 came in the black PC carry case, inside a white cardboard box! ) I put two return labels, with my info, on it. One inside & the other outside with a piece of clear shipping tape over them, just in case the gun & box got separated. Put a sheet with all your/it's pertinent info on it, along with the reason you're sending it back & any special instructions for them, inside the gun box.

S&W uses FedEx. Use one of their Express boxes to put your gun in. I used a medium box, but your gun might need a large box. Grab a shipping label to fill-out & a clear adhesive sleeve to put it in when you get the box. Put the RMA# on the label but nothing about it having a firearm inside. If you take it to FedEx yourself, you'll need to take it to the main FedEx office that services your area, not a FedEx/Kinko's or a satellite office. When you drop it off for shipment, you're required to tell the counter person it contains a firearm. Get a receipt from them showing they received it & the tracking number. Others here have said they just called FedEx & a truck picked it up at their house.

S&W always completed my warranty work within week of receiving it. Best of luck!

.
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Old 11-01-2014, 12:59 PM
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Very much appreciate the advice and tips fellas!

My 460v came in the standard blue plastic S&W box... except ALOT bigger than most. It's about the size of a briefcase....
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Old 11-22-2014, 09:59 PM
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Update:

My 460 arrived back home safe and sound yesterday. S&W repaired the issue, and at no cost to me!!! Was about a 2 week turnaround.. No complaints here..

I have been pretty busy with work and deer hunting so I haven't had the chance to measure the end shake just yet, but I can tell by the feel it is much tighter than it was.

I would like to publicly thank S&W for repairing my revolver at no charge! They didn't have to do that being that I am not the original purchaser of this revolver... But they did anyway and that deserves a tip of my hat.

They have a customer for life with me.
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:32 PM
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I give you thanks for reporting that S&W got your repair work done & in a very timely manner too..... too often folks only complain & never tell of a company's good deeds.....
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:44 AM
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Well, at one time I worked in a service industry with direct in-home contact with my customers. I know all too well how quickly people will voice discontent, and I also know first hand how much it is appreciated when a customer takes the time to express satisfaction.
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