My wife attended a ladies advanced concealed carry class recently. One of the instructors pointed out that she 'overgrips' the gun. It's a S&W 442, Crimson Trace, (the slightly larger gripped one, wanted a bit more cushion). She is 4'11", 100lbs, not a large person. We have attended a couple of classes, she adapted to the grip. What we found was during more of a point and shoot situation, her shots tend to go right, (she's right handed). We are going to put the stock grips back on, see how that works, both for aim and recoil. Anyway, we are considering selling and/or trading in her 442. Not sure the best way to go, anyone done something like this? Keeping it doesn't seem to be a great idea. The new gun will likely be her carry, the 442 would probably just sit in the safe.

Unless you have local gun store, aka LGS, that will do a swap, then you'll probably just end up selling it and buying the one you want.

In my experience, you end up taking a hit (think $100ish) when you trade at the LGS vs. just selling it - BUT, it's a LOT less hassle.

In Texas, when you do a swap, you don't pay sales tax on the trade in value, so that's a plus. It makes the 'hit' more like $50ish when I've done that.

__________________
But then, what do I know?

Why don't YOU keep the 442 for yourself and just buy her a shield?...

It might come to that, I don't have any problem buying her a Shield, (besides the 442, she has a full size M&P for IDPA). I have a Kel Tec PF9 for pocket carry, a Sigma for IWB, (I've shot it in IDPA also). If money wasn't an issue, I'd probably just stick it in the safe, but why? There is a 'couples/partners' class coming up, $350 for the pair of us or roughly the cost of a new Shield. Once she decides whether or not she wants to change guns, (she really likes the snubbie, it was her first gun), we need to decide if trading it in or selling outright is the best. We might not be ready for the class besides the $, we'd need mags, holster, time to get used to the new gun.

Seems like it would be cheaper to work on fundamentals like grip etc than selling the gun. Especially if she is comfortable with the revolver. Going to a new gun isnt going to solve anything until you correct her grip technique.

I could be wrong, but as you identified her as a small person, the 442 has a heavy trigger and it seems that she may have too mush finger on the trigger because it's too hard to pull.
If that is the case , I too would opt for a M&P Shield. Nice gun , good carry.

The enclosed hammer snub revolver offers advantages for personal self-defense that no other weapon does. I would keep the 442 and work out whatever issues she's having with it. WILSON DEFENSE JOURNAL: The real ladies gun by Massad Ayoob

Very good article. The info applies to men and women. I carry a 442 38 spl. for the very reasons he mentions.

Considering you say your wife uses a M&P for IDPA I'd say she should transition to a Shield very easily. I actually did what you're thinking about. I now will use the Shield for my warm weather carry.

I like the fact that it's flatter, conceals easier, carries a minimum of 8 rounds (vs 5), has an 8 round spare mag that for me is a much faster reload than a revolver with either a speed loader or speed strips-I know there are those that can but I'm not one of them.

Her problem is with the Crimson Trace, (the slightly larger grip), in order for her to reach the trigger comfortably, she has to wrap her hand further around the gun. The CT adds about a 1/4" of padding which moves her hand further away from the trigger. Normal target shooting isn't a problem, she's quite good, she seemed a bit more accurate with the stock grips when we put them back on today. She's had the gun since 2009. What was pointed out during an advanced class was that during an actual SHTF situation, most people tend to 'point shoot'. With her 'overgrip', she would tend to shoot to the right as her natural 'point' would come into play. Going back to the stock grips solves that, now the extra 'pounding' is a problem. Not so much for SD, but the training class, all day, two day class, the 'pounding' becomes a problem. She borrowed one of my daughter's gun, a Shield, shot it today. Took a little while for her to get used to the gun/trigger, but started to put together some good shots after 100 or so rounds. She started complaining about the snubbie after less than 20, (she used the snubbie for a 2 day class a couple of years ago). Something else that popped up, if she gets the Shield, not only will that become her carry, she could/should use it in IDPA. She asked me, "what am I going to do with my full size M&P?" I volunteered to use it! I guess my Sigma will need a new home, LOL!

Ok , post #10 finally fills in the details , so that I understand what's going on. I've got to streatch my imagination to concieve of a J Rd butt grip being Too Large , but that brings us to one of the inherent revolver advantages - infinite grip options. Off the top of my head , if the covered backstrap CT grips are too big , it screams out to test fire Magnas with a grip adapter.

The statements that enclosed hammer small frame revolvers have a set of unique advantages , and that hot ammo in a lightweight J Frame aren't fun , are both true. Before throwing out the revolvers with the bathwater , she needs to test drive a steel frame J Frame and a spurless SP101 .

Maybe she will prefer bottomfeeders eventually , but more revolver experimentation first.

And I know it is wise advice frequently repeated to seek training. But in this instance don't let the timing of a potential additional class rush you into premature equipment switches.

"bottomfeeders", took me a second, LOL. We have already decided IF she decides to go with a Shield, (or something else after some more tests), we aren't going to do the 'partners class'. She won't use the snubbie for the class, (certainly not with the stock grips, THAT was decided today for sure!), the money for the class along with the new gun, ain't happening this week! We know for sure that as a carry, the snubbie is fine, she likes it, (except for range work). The problem, (and something I noticed from Ayoob's article), how does one train with a gun you can't shoot alot? I'm pretty sure, if and when, she gets a "bottomfeeder", (love that term), it will probably become her main gun. The snubbie will end up sitting in the safe. Not a great use of our funds, although, if I can't get a decent $ for it, it'll sit.

Actually that last point is a important one.

Back in the Revolver Era , a small frame snubbie was recomended to not be a first or only gun. Which to a large degree translates to not recomended ( and often not in real life ) to be a first or only DA revolver .the skill and training issues with small frame snubs is two fold : The DA trigger pull itself , and aiming and handling issues relating to being small and light.

The usual progression was to learn DA trigger skills and basic handling with a medium frame DA revolver first ( K Frame or equiv ). Then after being proficent with a "normal" revolver, did one transition to the J Frame. And I certainly know that back in the day I put a lot more rounds thru K Frames and Speed Sixes than thru M37 . This Forum in particular is a gathering spot for revolver loving dinosaurs , and a have to occasionally remind myself that a lot of young people , and people coming to guns later in life don't have an old school background , and for them revolvers are only on their radar as BUG and deep cover concealment guns.

The big picture solution is firing "lotsa" rounds to practice trigger skills and aiming without being painful, and "fewer , but enough" rounds to remain familar with the full bark and bite , and the control thereof.

Old School solution #1 was to also practice with a full size DA Revolver. Old School solution was to do a lot of the practice with the small gun , with the precieved recoil mitagated. Not picking on your fine wife , dynamite in small packages , etc, but for 99% of shooters a stratagey was to use oversize , frequently rubber grips. The other part of the equasion was to use low recoil ammo. Back in the day commercial reloads of 148gr and even at the end of the Era 100gr Wadcutters ( WC ) . In the modern times minimal recoil ammo is marketed to Cowboy Action shooters , in .38spl , .38Long , and even .38Short.

If one steps up to having an additional gun , there are currently a plethora of snubs in .22lr and .22WMR . I don't really buy into them for actual self defense , but they make dandy understudy guns for .38/.357 snubs , and usually fun plinkers in their own right.

If she decides that she wants a Shield, keep the 442 if at all possible. I have one and it frequently serves as a pants pocket gun for me. A "round" gun, like a small revolver, works much better in this role than a "square" small bottom feeder. I carried a Glock 26 or a 27 this way for years and finally went back to a J-frame .38. Much easier to draw from a pocket than the Glock self-loaders.

You don't need to shoot a lot and You change the way you train.

You stated one instructor mentioned people tend to point shoot in real life self-defense situations. That is true. It is also true that the vast majority of civilian self-defense encounters happen very sudden at very close distances. Many follow the rule of 3's(they are resolved in an average 3 shots, on 3 seconds and occur at 3 yards-some quote 3 feet). At those distances, you don't need much marksmanship. Heck, you really don't even need sights on your gun that close. But the way most people "train"(actually they usually just like to shoot) at the range or the way the various competitions are organized simply don't reflect reality and what happens during the average civilian gunfight.

Spend more time training and learning to draw and access the weapon in the scenario of an actual assault. This means learning proper dynamic movement and how to get off the X. Real assaults usually explode suddenly, up close and personal and you must utilize unarmed skills and often have to use them simultaneously integrated to even access the weapon. And once the weapon is out, you must be able to effectively retain the weapon as well and get rounds off at contact distances with someone right on top of you assaulting(or raping in a woman's case). You will effectively learn and be able to apply these skills in properly conducted Force on Force/FoF scenario training. And it's in these real-life scenarios where you'll find the enclosed hammer snub shines. Still spend time running live rounds at the range, but it doesn't have to be all that many rounds. Incorporate realistic movement and unarmed defensive techniques and accessing it, firing from the unorthodox positions you could experience in a CQ defense scenario, one hand shooting, firing from retention etc. and simply be able to make defense accurate hits at realistic defense distances.

Also, something else to consider. You're wife sounds as if she's really petite/physically not very strong. Has she ever trained firing her semi-automatics one handed from a retention position? With the lightweight framed polymer striker pistols such Glocks and the M&P, small women will often experience a high percentage of malfunctions during reality-based training simply due to not having enough strength to give the gun a solid and stable enough base to cycle (limp-wristing).

Daniel W, you make many good points. I sort of expected there might be interest in a different gun after her class. I had the same thought about the close range she would likely have to use the snubbie in and whether or not the slight point to her right would really be an issue. She's shot it enough with the Crimson Trace grip to have some 'muscle memory'. Weird though, when she shot it yesterday with the stock grips, (the CT has been on the gun for over three years), she seemed a bit more accurate. She does practice strong hand only, weak hand only, but your comment on 'limp wristing' is a point. Classes working on retention is something we should both be doing more of, her particularly, (I'm not getting any younger or stronger either). I'm beginning to think we're not getting rid of the snubbie, we both like it, maybe it'll become part of her rotation, IDK. She still wants to try a few other guns, see if that is the direction she wants to go. I appreciate ALL the comments, that was exactly what I wanted, different points of view.

If at all possible keep the 442, everyone needs a good hide away revolver, even if you seldom carry it.

__________________
John

Keep it just in case the new one doesn't work out.
Sometimes semi-auto's do not work out and you may need it or circumstances may change . You like it, even just a little, hang on to it, at least for the time being.
Revolvers have a lot going for them....semi-auto is not the magic cure-all and/or answer to everything.

This discussion reminds me of the old snubbie issue. That being that the snubbies are "expert guns" that are really meant "to be carried a lot and shot a little".

From what I've read, your wife has no problem with the revolver (round limitation/speed of reloading), but finds the gun uncomfortable for extended shooting sessions. If you reload, I'd suggest you crank out a couple hundred rounds of 148gr wadcutters over 2.8-2.9 of Bullseye powder. Use these "powder puff" rounds for consistent practice and use the SD rounds for familarization. If you don't reload, try to find someone who can crank out the ammo for you.

I've used this approach with many "new shooters" and found it to be quite effective.

I recommend she keeps the 442 - you did mention that she really likes it. I'm a woman, a little taller and heavier than your wife. My very first gun, back in 1993 was a .38 j frame. I've owned the Glock 26, the Kahr PM9, Ruger LC9 and many others. But I'm back to carrying a j frame (the 638). It has an Apex spring kit installed to lighten the trigger, and I always practice with 125gr ammo. I shoot 100 rounds each range trip (once or twice a month). I have the stock grips on it. I think the Apex kit along with the lower grain ammo allows me to shoot this gun VERY well. I find the Shield very stiff to rack the slide, and a little snappy to shoot.

I like that I can just throw my revolver in my coat pocket when I walk the dogs. If I had to, I could shoot right through the coat without removing the gun.

Just one more opinion...

Hmm, loading up some 'powder puff' rounds is an option, I've got Bullseye, I think there are some 125gr LSWC laying around. MaxS, I've already installed the Apex Duty/Carry trigger kit in it, she learned racking skills going around to gun shows trying out different guns. Racking the slide was one of the main features she was looking for. In time we realized that a gun that she had trouble with, two gun shows later, she racked it just fine. Finally occurred to us that she had figured the technique out. Guys generally can just muscle their way through, women need to learn how to do it correctly, she did. She borrowed a Shield from one of my daughters, shot it a bunch yesterday, no problems racking the slide. It's still new, maybe 400 rounds through it including the nearly 200 yesterday. SundownIII, are wadcutters softer shooting than semi wadcutters?

Has she fired a Shield yet?

Don't change guns; change the grips and/or technique. Crimson Trace makes a model for round butt J frames that does not cover the back strap or the butt. Yes; it cushions less; but how many rounds are you going to fire in a defensive scenario? How concerned are you going to be about your hand?

Attached Images

IMG_2066 (3).jpg (176.2 KB, 14 views)

Just personal experience here, but I have later regretted letting go of every Smith & Wesson revolver, I have ever sold or traded away.

My gunsafe is now the "Hotel California" when it comes to Smith, Colt, and Ruger revolvers.

Arghhhh ! The * Point Shoot Debate * . There are three sides to it , and none of them speak the same language.

But I will hang with Dan W so far as importance of movement, retention , transitions, etc , even though I probably have a different sequence of skill building.

But moving away from philosophical questions more directly to our friends Mr & Mrs Jamie :

Ignoring the effects of internal friction , swc vs wc doesn't effect momentum ( roughly rounds off to recoil ). Gamer style Cowboy Action loads feature 125gr rnfp loaded to +/- 700fps . 20yr ago 100gr WC was loaded to not much faster. Probably less accurate than the traditional 148 WC loads , but the great unwashed masses shooting at life sized silouette targets at 7yds in indoor ranges never noticed.

Since you have a supply of Bullseye , use your prefered lead bullet of 125gr or less, start with 3.0gr , and work downwards until : recoil becomes pleasant , or bullet sticks in bbl , Or bullet tumbles at 15yd or less. If either of later two happen , increase 0.1gr , and declare victory in finding practice load.

I'd maybe go with the Shield but have her try it out first. Also take a look at the Sig P938. I switched from the Shield to it and love it.

My wife has both. She definitely shoots the Shield better. However, she loves her li'l 642, and that's usually the gun she leaves the house with.

2 guns are not too many keep the 442 with the intention of learning semi autos and revolvers. Good to learn and be comfortable with both types of handguns

Jamie,

No real difference in recoil between a wadcutter profile and a semi-wadcutter profile.

Really comes down to "energy' and here you'll find that you will need to use a little more powder with a lighter bullet.

With that said, the 125gr SWC's you have on hand will work fine. I'd start with about 2.9grs of BE.

I've got 20-30 of them left, I'll give them a shot....see how it works out. I contacted Bayou Bullets for their recommendations, if the bullets I have work out, I'll try some different weight bullets from Donnie, real light and real heavy see which ones work the best. I keep hearing heavy bullets produce a softer feel, I hear lighter bullets are softer. TBC