Hello,

This is my first post here, and I am posting because today I have become a proud owner of a beautiful John Ross 500. I'm not too keen on spending $60 for 20 rounds, so I've gone ahead and ordered brass and bullets for it and I'll only shoot what I load. I got excited while browsing matts bullets and saw he had a 565 gr round nose that he claims is a "John Ross Design." Well, I bought them without looking for load data first, and I can't find a whole lot of data. The brass will be here tomorrow, the bullets monday.

I would like to start loading on monday. I have a lot of local stores that deal in powder, so I'm looking for the right powder brand and load info to get started. I like the H110 (can't find it locally right now, I have to wait 2 weeks for a gun show), but I'm always afraid of underloading it. Since I have 0 load data to go off of, I don't want to go that route, except with perhaps a different bullet with a lot of load data.

If you have experience loading the 565 grain bullet, please let me know. I'm so excited to shoot this puppy (or should I say full grown rottweiler!), so any info is good!

Thanks all!


EDIT:


So I made a list of "magnum" powders that may be reasonably used for pushing the 565 grain bullet out of the barrel. Of those powders I found one locally: IMR 4227. I went around the web and a few reloading manuals and I made a spreadsheet of bullet weight and powder charge for starting and maximum loads. I plotted these values on a line and conducted a linear regression. You don't really need a degree in math or statistics to understand what this means; it is fairly straight forward. I'll perhaps explain it later. Anyways, after compiling about 20 data points, the minimum load line had an R^2 value of 0.94 and the maximum had an R^2 value of 0.89. This tells me that the bullet to charge ratio is somewhat constant, and the increase in bullet weight came with a linear decrease in powder charge. What I came up with was a starting load of 26 gr and a maximum load of 29 gr. (to be conservative).

I loaded 5 rounds with 26 gr of IMR 4227 and 5 rounds with 27 gr of IMR 4227. The difference between the two recoil wise were unnoticable. This is very likely due to the fact I spent all 10 shots trying to figure out how to grip the damn monster. The extraction process was noticably different, as the 26 gr loads slid out on their own and the 27 gr loads required standard amount of force that I'm used to with my highway patrolman shooting factory loads. Primers look fine, the cases looked straight throughout, everything looked good to go.

So if you are looking for loads with the 565 gr bullet, a starting weight of 27 grains is probably the best place to go. This is not a load for you to take your girlfriend shooting for the first time by any means. Again, thanks to everyone for all of their helpful comments!


EDIT EDIT:


By popular request, here is a photo.

With that projectile you are going to want to run 30 grains of H110.

Though I have found that above 500 grains I get a little bit better performance with WC860/AA1860 even though you need more of the powder. I would run 40 grains of AA1680 if you have it.

Hey Trow2,

John Ross's website is apparently off-line. But you can view a snapshot of it via the wayback machine here. That is a link to a PDF of his FAQ.

It is an interesting read and he has a section on handloading that you might find useful.

]

Thanks for sharing this with me! A stapled copy of this booklet came with the revolver, but its all crumpled up and folded. I didn't want to open it or turn the pages too much because it has John Ross' signature on it, and I don't want to mess it up too much :/

I have had a blast reading it though! He mentions that using a powder suitable for .223 at maximum case capacity (slightly, but not overly compressed is okay) will work for any load. The only .223 powder I have is varget, would this apply in my situation?

Why not contact Matt and ask him what he uses???

Who is Matt and how do I contact him?

Measure the seating depth of those bullets and determin approximate volume left in the case. Then fill it with SR4759. You'll have powerful, accurate load without too much pressure. If you are after accuracy, stick with standard rifle primer and adjust the powder for a few grains. You can use H322 the same way but won't be as accurate and will have some unburnt powder. Yet, it will be milder. These are the only powders I use for my JR500s.

I would like to get some AA1680 to use in my Mini30, haven’t found any in a couple years.

I always wonder why people want slugs heavier than the 440 gr factory weight? A heavy 440 gr hard cast load will penetrate a cape buffalo end to end and break bones in the process, how much more does one need? All the heavier slugs give you is greater recoil and more trajectory drop. Don

The guy you bought the bullets from??

565 Grain Long Round Nose (.501) John Ross Design [501-565-LRN] - $19.50 : Matts Bullets

The loading advise in John,s booklet is spot on.
Tried almost all the loads list and they worked as described.

The heavier/longer bullets definitely work better out of his guns past 50 yards than any other S&W revolver offering.

Enjoy

Here are mine

His book says load the case full of 223 powder and call it a day. Do you see anything wrong with loading cases with varget?

Cape buffalo killing power is nice and all, but I'm trying to get some tyrannosaurus rex killing power instead! I've always loved big powerful magnums and this is the next step. That is all

I have a .458 Win Mag in addition to my two .500 Mags. With some Hornady 500 gr FMJ solids, clocks 2172 fps/5237 ft lbs. T-Rexs and rogue elephants have been scarce in my neighborhood of late but I’m ready if they appear. Don

I am not where I have access to my notes, but I don't recall using Varget and don't recall it mentioned in Johns notes.

I do remember using IMR 3031 and 4227 on few quite a few different bullet weights; the 4227 produced higher velocities. If I were loading the 565 grain bullets and want to maximize velocity I would stick H110, N110, Lil'Gun, 2400 in that order.

Be prepared for quite the ride when you start pushing bullets heavier than 500 grains to their max. I would suggest starting with something in 500 range and get good sense of positive control before getting too carried away.

The JR produces more torque than the other S&W 500 offerings because of it faster twist rate. The up side is the bullets does stabilize and can be shoot past 50 yards accurately.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

I think I'm just going to have to be patient and wait for the gun show.

Thanks for all the help guys!

I, too, own a JRC 500 IIRC I started with bottom loads listed on Hodgdon's reloading page, especially with 296 don't go under this! Pressures seem to spike quickly(dangerously) if you go under their bottom load.
Steve

The problem I have is that load data is not really out there for my 565 gr bullets. Another member said that 30 gr H110 will do the trick. I have a 10/10 scale so I can load partial grains fairly easily and scale it up from there slowly to see how close I am to bad pressure signs. But with you, I'm really more worried about the one time I load too little powder than I am the one time i load too much.

Then I usually pick the next heavier bullet for data.
Steve

I'd depend on published data verses working up "to bad pressure signs", that might not come until it's too late. And a lighter than "starting load" isn't going to cause you dangerous pressures unless you go so low as to cause a squib & then fire another round behind it.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I would advise you read some about Win 296?
Steve

Can you please provide source for low charge weight produces pressure spikes with H110.

Case volumes below 90% of H110 typically don't burn properly and create enough pressure for the bullet to leave the barrel creating an obstruction not a kaboom.


The 454 Casuall, 500 S&W and 460 S&W should not be treated like typical handgun cartridges; they are operating 15,000 psi or more than all other handgun calibers.

As suggested about contact Matt and get some proven data for his lead.

Did you mean leave the case and create a barrel obstruction, if not where would the obstruction be if the bullet left the barrel. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Actually, the 500 operates at 60,000 PSI. In other words, its rifle pressure.
Steve

Read what I wrote- and please point to us to your reference(s) low charge weight with H110 cause pressure spikes

Yes, thanks for making it clear to all
though I did see a instance out here were the guy tied up a cylinder on a 460 S&W ES, the bullet lodge in the front of the forcing cone. He side he was trying to make a reduced load for his girl friend, so he just used half the max. for a 200 grain FTX, so I guess he used about 27 grains H110.

I found some 4227 here in town. I performed a linear regression on some load data I found for it, and the charge associated with different weight bullets is nearly linear. R^2 = 0.94

Using the regression line, I was able to extrapolate loads for my 565 grain bullets. 27 gr of 4227 was the starting load I came up with, but the bullet on the 500 has to be seated very deeply. I'm a bit concerned that I'm compressing the load, but I did my best to measure it and it seems like the powder is just barely below the bullet in the case. So I'm not sure how comfortable I'd feel scaling it down anymore. Either way, I finally have some loads ready to rock and roll and I'll likely try them out tomorrow evening.

You will find many loads for the 500 are compressed when using magnum pistol powders. Some powders actually perform better under slight compression, H110 comes to mind.

The 565 JR bullet was designed to use as little as case volume as possible and still provide adequate case tension.

Unfortunately I am out of the country or I could provide you with better guidance and QL simulation information.

4227 is a good choice with this bullet in experience.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

So all went well with my test firing. I loaded 10 rounds with 565 grain lead cast round nose bullets, half loaded with 26 gr of 4227 and the other half with 27 gr. The 26 gr cases fell right out of the cylinder like a weak .38 special and the 27 gr cases slid out very smoothly. No other signs of trouble, so id say I can load higher, which I plan on doing.

I'm definitely hooked. Thanks to everyone who helped me get to this point!

.

If you're implying that sub-magnum pressure loads are dangerous, look at the published Lyman starting load at 20.6K psi with W296/H110 in the 500 Mag with a 400gr cast lead bullet.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Bluedot, I don't understand what you're asking? I should of said that it is dangerous to use less than published loads with 296? So, if you're using a Lyman manual it should be within parameters.
Steve

Have look into CFE powder. It is just the ticket for 5.56/.223 loads Call the company??

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Davethegundoctor

Before I heard of John Ross I bought a 500 S&W Handirifle for the express purpose of loading slow moving large boolits. Brian Pierce had published some data using Tightgroup powder which he said he picked because it was reputed to not be position sensitive. I have used it and Unique behind various slugs. They did what I wanted to do. When I posted some loads on another forum John Ross came on and somewhat scathingly told me if I wanted to download the 500S&W I should use Trailboss. I had never heard of him and ignored his post. I used the pistol powders to load light recoiling loads for the 500S&W that seemed to knock the snot out of rocks, stumps, and water bottles. I like a load of 6.4 grains of Unique behind the 365 grain Lee modern improved miniball which is a huge hollow based wadcutter. This is less than half of the max recommended for Unique so I don't worry about double charging. I am not real sure why you are worried about under charging. You might want to look at different powders, 2400 comes to mind. I bought a pound of 4198 but haven't tried it. A basic load of 16 grains of 2400 is recommended to make any gun go "bang". Speer shows 38 grains as a minimum with a 350 grain Hotcore. Somewhere between these two numbers should be a load for you. It is my experience that if you like to research and fool around the 500S&W can be a really fun toy. If you are a boolit caster the Lee 50 caliber muzzle loader projectiles cast from alloys make it interesting.

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olafhardt

There have been a number of reports of detonation when using slow rifle powders under reduced loads conditions.

Note: all John's recommendations using slow powders are at or near 100% case fill.

Trailboss is no brainier here - it what the powder was designed to do.

I have seen a few x-frames in pieces because the owners were "fooling around".

The 500 and 460 are great guns for the handloader.
Reloading is safe when we follow the recipe.
When we don't the consequences can be life impacting.

The case volume and cross section capacity makes the 500 some what forgiving for reloading.
Some powder choices do work but are far from best choices yet often recommend because someone used them without a kaboom. Fast pistol powder may seem like a good solution but peak pressure is typically very high even in reduced loads and the cases easy to remove after firing. Most handloaders would conclude that these are safe because they did not see any of those magic "pressure signs" that seem to so touted.
If you do not use a pressure barrel or pressure test tool you don't know what is really happening.

Chose your load data from sources developed by ballistions
Some load data manuals are are compiled with no reference as to source. I believe the most reliable data is that published by the major bullet manufactures.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

Unless, I miss my guess, John is saying he prefers powders that fill the case more than others that will do the same job? Filling the case fuller prevents over charging more easily, IMHO.
Steve

Unfortunately John Ross's website has been down for some time. A review of his 500 S&W can be found here The John  Ross S&W Performance Center 5" .500 Magnum and provides some back ground on him and the development fo the 500S&W. He provided insight to S&W on early issues with the 500 which brought a few changes to the initial design. He also did a tremendous amount of bullet and load development with the help of several prominent balisticians.

When i return states side I will see if we can get permission to post his history and load development suggestion document here. A signed copy was included with each John Ross Performance Center Revolver. 500 guns were produce, half with two tones finish and half stainless finish.

I consider it a must read for all 500 S&W owners and handloaders.

After thumbing through my bookmarks I found this page that has loading info for various sized bullets available for the 500. Nothing there for the 565gr round but info all the way to the 700gr round! Hope this helps out!

Reloading 500 S&W Magnum Page

Let us see a photo of that Ross .500 already!

That website was definitely helpful for figuring out my problem here. I've updated my initial post.

I'll get some good pictures of it in its natural habitat next time I take it for a woods walk.

Steve

Sorry, can't help with the 565 gr., but Veral Smith has an section on load development without any data in his book "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets." I've used his methods with success for many calibers, including a 500 gr. load for my own John Ross 500.

I've found a lot of data for my JRC 500 with 500 grain bullets even a custom mold one(that I designed with Mountain Molds)?
Steve

I'm going to go some time this weekend with some slightly hotter loads to see if I can find a maximum for this 565 gr bullet with 4227. I've got two cases set aside for each flavor: 27.5, 28, 28.5, and 29. Remember, I've calculated a maximum load to be 30 +/- 1 gr of 4227, and I'll report in.

Pictures...... If we don't get Pictures it didn't happen.......

Sounds like a wise decision. IIRC they advise to go up .3 grains at a time(if I'm wrong someone correct this, please)?
Steve

Nice Piece!!! Is that a 5 Star speedloader??

Thanks! I'm not sure the brand. It is all metal though, much better than any other speed loader I've handled

Here's a link to the 5 Star....

5 Shot 5X-500 Accessories

Yep, that is the one! I've always bought those cheap plastic ones HK something I think they are called. They are terrible. I'm pretty sure I never use them. I'm going to have to find some 5 stars for my others.

I see no sign of John replying, I sure hope he's not fallen on hard times(or health issues)? He's usually around here.
Steve