I came across this website, and was wondering if it's a good way to go in terms of lightening the J-Frame trigger pull.

If so, are there any others that compare?

The price is certainly right! https://store.apextactical.com/WebDi...Details/192058

Why is it not a good idea to lighten the trigger pull?

And, did you have any input on the actual question?

I've read good things about Apex's work on revolvers.

But I tend to agree that lightening the trigger spring on a self defense revolver is asking for trouble. Why? Two reasons: One, safety. The long heavy trigger pull is a safety feature by itself, lessening the chance of inadvertent or accidental operation of the trigger. Two, reliability. The trigger spring powers the hammer and its firing nose to strike the primer, or, in the case of newer S&W revolvers, powers the hammer to hit the frame-mounted firing pin that strikes the primer. A lightened hammer spring can result in light strikes on the primer, and failure to initiate the firing of the round.

(I just read that some well-known parts vendors sell longer firing pins to help compensate for potentially light strikes -- an admission that this can be problem by sources who should know).

My J frames are fun to shoot but they are intended to be self-defense guns. I prefer unaltered factory springs, with the increased safety of the long, heavy trigger pull and the greater certainty of reliable primer ignition.

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S&W Rover

Reliability I am concerned about and will research when I choose a kit. I wanted to verify Apex is reputable. I'm new to S&W modding.

That said, I'm not new to modding DA carry guns. I have several that are in the 7 lb range and on top of that sit at half cock after decocking. I respect those that choose to keep the heavier pull for safety but I feel 7lbs is certainly heavy enough. Now, give me a Glock and I'll give it back. Even with a NY trigger.

Speaking of NY triggers in Glocks that kind of makes my next point of having a lighter pull in a self defense gun.

Thanks for your input on Apex. Anyone else have any info on Apex? Also open to other shops/kits.

Pdx, it tends to be a crapshoot if you do what you're asking. "Lightening" usually means putting in lighter springs, which can impact the reliability of hitting the primers hard enough. A better plan is smoothing out the surfaces that rub against each other in the action. Less friction makes it feel like an easier trigger pull (which it is, because your pull isn't fighting the rough spots in addition to the springs.)

Apex seems to come up frequently when the subject of action improvement comes up. FWIW, I've smoothed the trigger action and reduced the pull weight to just under 10lbs on a couple of J frames just by installing different Wolf springs ordered from Midway and some light stoning of the return slide. For less $$, I got the options of choosing various spring weights to suit my needs.

I'm not sure what a different firing pin/spring adds to the equation, but I'm always ready to learn.

I put Apex kits in my 642 and 640 Pro. Love them.

I'm thinking the firing pin is extended. The spring is usually lighter, but may be tuned heavier in the revolver.

The revolver, and S&W in general, is new to me. So I'm learning too!

I have two of the Apex kits. One is in my wife's 642 and works perfectly. When I installed the kit, I slicked up the internal parts, cleaned them and then lubed everything. I shot many rounds of varying manufacture. Some were reloads, others were factory rounds. The gun never once had a hiccup. It was 100% reliable.

The second kit will go in my M&P 340 when I get it.

There are a number of threads on this subject. Here are a couple:
S&W J Frame Firing Pins (frame mounted) +
UPDATE...Trigger job, J frame

A search will probably show more.

Too often, I believe, much is made about the weight of the trigger pull while ignoring the other nuances that collectively make more difference. For example, in DA shooting, the trigger return can make a huge difference in fast and accurate shooting. Also, the smoothness of the trigger, when and how the trigger breaks, if and where stacking is felt during the trigger travel, all can have a deleterious effect even with a very light trigger pull. Some things only indirectly involve the trigger, but can make a difference: the sides of the hammer making contact with the frame for one example.

Bottom line: tuning the action of one's self-defense revolver is not the best way for a "hobbyist" to self learn gunsmithing. If someone truly feels that he cannot work with the trigger, the revolver should be taken to a certified gunsmith who understands the intricacies of the double action revolver. Should you ever have to actually use the gun in a self defense situation, you'll be glad you had a professional gunsmith do the work when A: you prevail in the shooting and B: you prevail in court afterward because the prosecution had no opportunity to paint you as a reckless blowhard who tinkered with his gun on the kitchen table in order to make it more "deadly."

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Without getting too far off track -

1) If I can take one of the most difficult guns to shoot and make it easier to hit the target I see no downside, assuming the reliability is not compromised. One way to accomplish this is making the trigger pull lighter.

2) The argument of 'in the court of law' is bogus unless my gun completely malfunctions as a result of my hobby gunsmithing and in the process injures or kills someone. That is not going to happen.

I won't say people need to lighten up.... and you don't need to say live in fear...

I installed the Apex trigger kit in my and my wife's 642's . Also did some polishing of the side's of the internals and internal frame side plate areas and trigger, rebound slide .etc . I did not touch any of the engagement surfaces I think that is an area that you can get in trouble . Apex sends a cd and a link to youtube site that gives very good instructions sorry I don't have that handy . After the install I dry fired each gun 1,000 times with snap caps . The trigger pull has drop and each has smoothed out . Also if you buy the kit they offer a tool to remove the rebound spring it is worth the price

The Apex kit worked for me, making this 642-1 more fun to shoot, mostly because it is easier for me to shoot accurately with a lighter trigger.



That said, shooting a J-frame well still required quite a bit of shooting practice. Admittedly, I might be a slow learner.

With the kit installed, this 642-1 has been 100% reliable firing my two favorite choices of commercial carry ammo from Federal.

Federal primers are also used in all my reloads because of Federal's reputation as a "soft" (easy to ignite) primer. They function perfectly as well.

As for alternatives, polishing the sides of the rebound slide and replacing only the rebound spring with a slightly lighter version from Wilson Combat or Wolff Gunsprings worked just as well in a couple of similar J-frames. The advantages are both a lower cost and the greater confidence created by retaining the original firing pin and its more robust return spring. YMMV

Nice. Ya ... it's a no brainer to me. I have a CZ 75 B. I could shoot good groups with the one DA first shot, and follow up single action shots. Or all SA shots. I took that gun and stripped it, making it SAO with a trigger pull almost is tight as a j-frame with a cocked hammer. I now shoot big holes in paper- no groups - just big holes.

Really opens ones eyes just how much trigger skill has to do with hitting the target.

No self defense firearm should have a trigger pull of less than 4 lbs. If you do, I hope you carry a multi-million dollar liability insurance policy.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

In DA, sure. The SAO guns I speak of above are range only guns. I mean you tap that trigger and the gun is going off. No way would I carry anything close to that, safety or not.

My carry pistol has DA pull of 7lb 4oz and SA of 2 lb. Plenty safe..

The Apex kit is pretty good. It does use a reduced power mainspring, but makes up for it with a slightly longer XP firing pin and a lighter firing pin return spring. Mine has not experienced a single ignition failure. One negative that I experienced with this kit when I installed it in my M638 involved the rebound spring. The spring weight is not stated, but seems to be a little light. It resulted in an inappropriately-light single action trigger pull and a slow reset. Though I used the rest of the kit, I replaced the rebound spring with a 15# variant from Wolff. The excellent SA pull returned and resets became quick and tactile. Check out the Wolff website for lots of info and options:
https://www.gunsprings.com/index.php...mID=58&dID=263

Apex is reputable and the kit is legitimate. Some people have reported light strikes with certain ammo and you may need to change springs, pin, etc. but that seems not likely. If you don't already have the gun, the pull on my PC 642 the talo one with the polished trigger, cylinder release and flutes is very smooth.

Regardless of what anyone says, a lighter, smoother trigger will produce better results with all shooters. The reason being, you the shooter will practice more with a gun that is comfortable to shoot. Any gun that is very comfortable to shoot should yield better targets. Get the picture?

Good kits are available from Wilson, Apex, and Wolff. All work great. The Wolf and Wilson kits offer you the option or three different rebound spring weights which will allow you to customize the feel of your gun. Apex is a great company and their springs are custom made for Apex kits plus you get a new firing pin and spring.

I have both the Wolff and Apex kits in my J frames, the trigger pull wt. in all guns is about 9#, both offer me total reliability. I tend to prefer the kits that offer me multiple spring options. Currently the 8# hammer spring coupled with the 14# rebound spring has produced great results for me.

Not quite. Smooth and consistant are always good things in a trigger , but far more important than weight per se. Smooth 12lb DA is much better than a gritty, slugish, or inconsistant 8lb. In Glocks , I prefer the NY-1 stock connector, more tactile take up, smoother reset.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that I'd rather have a competent gunsmith smooth the trigger action and keep the stock springs in place than simply replacing them with lighter springs.

However, spring swaps are easier to do and less expensive, so I can see the appeal. So long as reliability and shootability aren't compromised I don't see a problem with it if that's what works for you.

One of the concerns I have with lighter springs is a weak or sluggish trigger return. It's very important for me with rapid DA shooting. I passed on the Ruger LCR because the trigger return didn't have enough "oomph" for my tastes. I'd even consider getting an extra power rebound spring (and extra power mainspring if necessary to balance it out) in my 642 if I could find one.

I've had a master smith do trigger work on two J-frames, including the one I've carried daily for years. The pulls were only very slightly lighter if at all, but much smoother, which suited me fine. Dry-firing may have smoothed the EDC even more.

My number one priority is reliability. Always. This isn't a target revolver, it's a save-my-ancient-bum gun.

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Oh well, what the hell.

The 642-2 I recently bought had a horribly heavy trigger. The Apex Duty Spring Kit solved that issue. Light polishing on bearing surfaces of the internal hammer and rebound slide smoothed the trigger pull. It's never going to be my 33 year old 3 inch Model 13-3, but it is acceptable, now.

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CPT, Armor (Ret)
Luke 22:36

Unlike many of the nay-sayers who have no experience with the Apex kits, I use them in my EDC J-frames. They do not give you a 3# trigger pull! They reduce the factory pull(which is somewhere over 10#) by about 3#(something in the single digits).

I think the kits make the guns more 'shootable' . In a self defense situation, the extremely heavy pull in my factory J-frames could cause a miss at the worst time.

PS No LEO or district attorney will ever know you 'Apexed' unless you tell them.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Where did you get that threshold?

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Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

lol.....,,,,

Regarding lightening trigger pull, I wonder whether creating either progressive hammer spring or spring-within-spring (as occurs in some short slide semiautomatic pistol recoil spring assemblies) that would stack double action's self-cocking trigger action that initial pressure is less than OEM while pressure increases as trigger nears hammer fall?

For people sensitive fingers or reduced finger strength, once the trigger is moving, I suspect keeping it moving will be significantly easier. And the result would be the spring tension/pressure for firing pin impact on primer remains the same as OEM while apparent trigger action is easier.

Does this make any sense toward solving the issue?

Have heard that Apex is good. For gun springs I have always used Wolf. I have found that polishing the internal contact surfaces and a lighter rebound spring, will greatly improve the trigger of a J frame. Usually use the 8.5 standard power hammer spring with either an 11 or 12 pound rebound spring.

cant speak for the Apex but a friend did the Wilson spring kit and it worked well. I just changed the rebound spring with one from Wolff springs and got the change I was after..

I was told by Wilson, on the phone, that their springs come from Wolff. Take that for what it's worth.

I ended up ordering The Wolff Spring pack from Midway, who I will NEVER use again if it's the last supplier on the face of the earth. Their little tactic of 'ships immediately' combined with no phone number or way to cancel an order really frustrated me. Then, it took them two days into the work week to respond to the 'please cancel my order' email I sent an hour after placing it on Saturday morning. I guess they were too busy pulling, boxing, and shipping my order to respond to my cancellation request.

De Internet, of course!

The Apex kit I installed on my 642 did everything I hoped it would. IMO, it's a reliable system, and easy to install.

I got the 4 lb limit by witnessing several "accidental discharges" on a police firing range.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I'm not sure what brand or model your "carry pistol" is, but a 2# single action trigger pull is not "plenty safe", and is way below S&W specs for both their revolvers and semi-autos.

From an armorer's perspective, a lighter than spec trigger pull is more often than not a red flag for worn out or improperly modified/altered internal parts and springs.....and the gun represents a hazard, not only to the gun owner, but those around him/her.

In addition, by "modding" as you call it, your carry gun...... and thinking in terms of civil and perhaps even criminal litigation.....you have transferred the liability that was shared by both you and the manufacturer, to you alone.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

This is a debate I won't engage.

FWIW my pistol is brand new, and has a 'defensive' carry package installed that results in the exact specs I list- ~ 7lb DA and ~ 2lb SA. There is nothing wrong with the kit or the pistol. Or the installation of the kit.

I got ~1500 rounds through the Apex kit before getting light strikes. I've since left Apex' lighter weight rebound spring in but changed the firing pin, firing pin spring, and mainspring back to stock. This was in my 442.

I also switched the same parts back to stock in my 642. The 642 didn't have as many rounds through it yet but I wanted to keep the installed parts identical.

12/15/15 UPDATE: Apex intends to send me another kit to try.
1/17/16 Update: Now at 3,300 rounds in the 442. Light strikes got worse with stock parts being swapped back in. The 442 went back to S&W today. The Apex kit is "innocent", aka "not guilty". I can't even guess what could be wrong with a 6 month old 442. My 15 year old 642 is running great, however.
2/6/16: S&W called last week and is sending me a new 442. Apparently, an internal pin (unknown which one) broke inside which equates to a new frame/gun.

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66/642/640/627/586/60/638/686

I was a bit disappointed that Apex would not disclose their spring rates, that's why I ended up going with Wolf. Well, that combined with the fact a lot of people seem happy with the Wolf springs and appreciate the adjustability.

Bummer to hear you started getting light strikes after that many rounds. Speaks to the quality of the springs. On a positive note it's good info for those with the Apex kit. Change your main spring at 1k rounds!