I have a 1992 classic 38 Special (no +P), my one and only, concealed carry 99% of the time. It has come to my attention that a model 640 357 weighs only one ounce more, and of course has considerably more horsepower. I worry, however, about the possibility, with all that extra horsepower, if a 357 JHP might pass through the bad guy and kill a bystander behind him. Would greatly appreciate your input.

Stick with what you have now it has plenty of torque.

Hi' I buy all my revolvers in 357 mag and from time to time I shoot 357 mag just for fun and practice, but 99% of the time I carry 38 spl or 38+p ammo usually Hornady Critical Defense or Remington Ultimate Defense.

In the .357 mag, stick to 125 grain hollow points. The gold standard for stopping power during the police revolver era, and still at the top of the list. Some guys like heavier bullets, even SWC's, but they increase penetration, something you are looking to avoid, and offer no benefit in stopping power in this cartridge. Often times, a fast, relatively light weight HP bullet will penetrate no more, and sometimes less than a bullet going slower. This is do to rapid expansion, and frontal area slowing the bullet down. To slow a speed, and a bullet may not expand, and instead act like a solid, with increased penetration. There are no guarantees where a bullet will end up in a self defense situation, no matter what the caliber or load. Always keep that in the back of your head.

Bear in mind a .357 mag out of a small frame, lightweight gun is going to kick quite a bit more than the same gun shooting non +p 38's. When you consider recoil, muzzle blast, and controllability, might want to consider a good 38 spl +p load in your 38. If it is steel frame, and of recent manufacture, limited use of +p ammo will not hurt it. Personally, I have never been a fan of small frame, lightweight .357's, for the reasons listed above, though some do like them.

Larry

Another vote for the Critical Defense. I have both non +P, +P .38 and .357 magnum J frame snubnose's and use the Critical Defense standard velocity load for simplicity sake. If you should choose to go with a J magnum, I have seen numerous recommendations from forum members for the, .357 magnum Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, ammunition.

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Mbr; LEAA,KSRA,M.C.League

Welcome! There are many factors that may influence whether a round goes through an intended target - as others above noted, bullet design, velocity are important, but also how much of the target the shot traverses and residual energy it has afterward. Imagine how much momentum a bullet has going across the length of a deer, vs. the old Westerns where gun hands were miraculously shot with high frequency .

The prevailing opinion seems to be a +P expanding .38 Special (that you practice with regularly) will do an adequate job of self-defense if needed. A model 640 in .357 with the most effective full 125 gr loads will be a double handful to control; perhaps finding one to try or rent at a range would be a good idea. Chances are high you'll carry it with a warm .38 Special load, or the Speer Short Barrel .357 (kind of a very warm .38 +P) if you buy one. Hope this is helpful.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Howdy from South Carolina, and welcome to the forum.

As previous post stated, the .357 125gr JHP (my personal favorite), would likely stay where you put it, and has a very good reputation. If the recoil is too much, Winchester makes a 110gr JHP that is milder.

Why is your 1992 .38 "no +P"? Is that your choice, or a manufacturer's call?

In regards to your other question, while pass-thru's have happened and are dangerous, the biggest threat to a bystander is a miss by the shooter.

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Because of the metric system?

Over penetration...

I don't discount the risk of over penetration to bystanders behind the bad guy, especially with a higher velocity round like the 357 Magnum. However, bad guys come in different thicknesses and some of your shots might not be placed perfectly.

What about the risk to bystanders of a standard pressure 38 Special round from your current gun that isn't a center-of-mass hit? What about the risk posed by that same round after a complete miss?

Bad guy aren't required to be the standard 12"-18" of ballistic gel behind 4 layers of denim, so every round from any caliber could potentially end up down range, especially misses.

Reference the 640...

I own the 640-1 pictured below and find it is a good choice when I want to carry an all steel J frame. It is capable of firing full power 357 Magnums, but like others above I generally carry it loaded with 38 Special +P rounds.

Firing 357 Magnum rounds out of a J frame can be a handful for some. For general carry the extra recoil, blast, and flash are more than I want. However, I do like the 357 Magnum option in the woods where the extra zip might be desired for a 4-legged threat.

It is good to have options. YMMV...

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!

You need to be aware that depending on the load your .38 may be more prone to pass through than a .357. Be aware of it, but don't put a whole lot of worry in to it -- the far greater risk to bystanders comes from misses, not pass-throughs.

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Pisgah

Speer Gold Dots 135gr +P 38spl. Ment for short barrel revolvers.

Remember that bullet performance is usually shown when shot out of a 4in barrel, sometimes a 6 inch. So the numbers you see don't translate to snub nose revolvers. For that they make a bullet that uses the most of those 2 inches of barrel. This is why I mentioned that specific load.

Same with 357. Out of a short barrel revolver you won't get 357 balistics. You'd have to find a,company that makes shot barrel specific ammo.

.38 Special out of a snubby tends to be a little underpowered. 357 Magnum has an unbelievable noise and blast.

I'd shootl J Magnum and see how you like it.

Most people do not.
Screenshot_2015-06-01-14-33-16 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

Good point barrel length does made a difference in the performance of whatever load you use

Welcome to the FORUM! I have 4, .357 magnum Smiths. I do not shoot magnum loads in them. (but I CAN) There are so many good .38 choices out there! Some were already mentioned. Bob

Frankly, I'd be more worried about a miss hitting an innocent bystander than a .357 mag. passing through and injuring an innocent bystander.

I tried a couple of the J frame .357 models and found them all to be difficult to get accurate follow up shots with. While I may surrender my man-card I'll stick w/the +P. It worked fine during my LEO time and see no reason to change now.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

A 1992 S&W 38 classic should be more than capable of firing a 38 +P. A good round is the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 38 Special +P 135 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point. Excellent ballistics at 10 feet.

The 357 is a handful when firing with a J frame. Even firing the 357 with my model 19 is not pleasant and in most cases the extra punch is not necessary. According to FBI stats most handgun encounters happen within 7 to 21 feet; being a retired officer, I can attest to that.

Attached Images

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Be of Honor, God Bless America

I recently watched a video by Massad Ayoob, in which he discussed ammunition choices. For snub nosed 38 specials he recommended +P lead semi wadcutters. His reasoning is that shot from a snubby, hollow points are unlikely to expand so they offer none of the advantages of a JHP round. Buffalo Bore makes such a load and that is what I carry. 158g +P semi wadcutters.
I have fired .357 rounds through an airweight J frame. You will not want to shoot many of these as they beat the heck out of your hand. So if you carry with them, practice with .38 specials instead.

Welcome to the Forum. Always great to have new members. The weight difference between the 36 and 640 Magnum is greater than one ounce: more like 4-5 ozs. Also, the 640 Mag is bulkier than the .38 cal Chief. While I adore the snub mags, the 36 is much handier to carry and shoot, IMO. Previous posters have suggested ammunition selections for the Chief.

As to risk, touching off a round in a SD situation is risky for many reasons, regardless of caliber and/or penetration. I might consult a qualified criminal law attorney to learn what those risks are in your state. Good luck and good shooting.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Gold Dots in +P for carry is not going to hurt the gun you have, these rounds have plenty of horse power.

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John

Always be sure of your background is one of the Cardinal rules of shooting and applies whether you are at the range, out in the woods, or in a self defense situation.
I seem to remember reading stats on police shootings where the hit rate is very low, so misses are a very real possibility.
You may have to pass on taking the shot if the background is not safe.
Every shot you fire, you are responsible for where that bullet goes.

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Accuracy supercedes Speed

I keep a 640 (.38 Special frame) for protection. It's loaded with the old "FBI" load; Remington 158gr LSWCHP +P. Works for me.

If I want flame and flash, I'll take my 3" 629-1 to the range at dusk.

I think overpenetration is a concern but picking a good quality hollowpoint load will minimize the risk (the risk can never be eliminated).

.357 Magnum loads can generate more power than .38 Special, but as others have said that comes along with more muzzle blast/flash and recoil, which can negatively impact how quickly and accurately you can make follow-up shots if needed. Personally, I would stick with .38 Special loads even if I had a steel .357 Magnum J-frame. For me, the trade-off in controllabililty for power isn't worth it.

Assuming your gun is a steel-framed model based on your description, +P loads should be perfectly acceptable.

I use Speer 135gr Short-Barrel Gold Dot +P in my 642-1. My second choice would be Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP standard pressure (I would choose this load over the +P version even in a steel K-frame due to quicker follow-up shots). If I couldn't find or afford either of those I'd probably go with Remington's 158gr LSWCHP +P. Of course, any of the current generation of modern hollowpoint loads with medium-to-heavy bullet weights would be acceptable to me if it was all I could find, it functioned reliably in my gun, and I could get good hits with it.

Are you sure you heard him right? I've never seen Ayoob, on video, in print, or online, recommend semiwadcutters for .38 Special snubs. He usually recommends the Speer SB-GDHP or some variation of the FBI load for snubs. Do you have a link to the video you watched? I'd like to check it out.

Yes, I heard him right. This was a very lengthy interview-style video in which several topics related to SD were discussed in question and answer format.
He also advised that when shooting at an armed attacker who was charging at you, aim for the pelvis in an attempt to stop his forward motion and make him fall down. The theory being that a chest shot may eventually cause him to stop, but not before he has reached you and done whatever misdeeds he was planning.
I no longer have the link. If you Google Ayoob, you will probably find it.

Whatever you are most accurate with is best. More people are killed by 22LR than any other round (albeit mostly by ambush/assassination). I prefer 357 as even the concussion of a near miss may unnerve an amateur assailant a hit should be the end of the encounter. If you are firing in the direction of friendlies/bystanders, best to change the direction.

That is exactly why I don't have .357 rounds in my defense gun. I am using .38 +p 129 grain defense rounds, dont remember the brand. I would never sleep again if I fired a round that went through a sheet rock wall and hit a bystander.

Groo here
Be careful about the wanting of "fast " follow up shots.
Eric once said,"Accuracy is King , Penetration is Queen ,
Every thing else ,is Angels dancing on the head of a pin".
How fast do you need to shoot, how long will the target take to react,
If one could have done it, and you shoot 5 ,6, or empty the gun
you start looking like some of these bad cops.
One in the middle is better than 6 on the edges.
Two in two seconds in the middle is better than 5 or 6
in one sec on the edges.

I know a lot of folks in this world hang on everyone of Mas' words. However, every bit of training I've had since the early 70's has taught that your point of aim should always be center mass. Aiming for the pelvis and hoping you hit the bone, causing a fall is just that, hope.

He's also stated a number of times that you have to say that you've shot someone in order to claim self-defense.

I've had at least two lawyers, both with backgrounds in criminal law, and self defense, tell me in classes that you should never admit to anything; either to the 911 operator, or the police. If there is any doubt in your mind, you should say nothing until you've been checked out by a doctor skilled in trauma, and you've spoken to your attorney. There are also two excellent videos on You Tube. They both explain in great detail why you should never talk to the police. They're both presented by a law professor at a Virginia law school.

In the very first self defense class I attended in the early 1970's, we went through a drill where the perp was visible from 21 feet away. You could not tell he was armed, and you were armed with a dummy gun which was holstered.

At 21 feet, the "perp" the perp turned, charged, and was on me before I could draw and clear leather. He had a rubber knife, and I would have been dead or badly cut. I was 26 at the time and my reflexes were excellent. There were a number of police officers in the class, as well as persons skilled in martial arts. None of them fared any better.

I have trained at night qualifications with the 357 mag and the fire ball out of a snubby is huge and can even be blinding it is for that reason I keep 38 spl in my home protection firearms. When I was in law enforcement we used the ammo we were issued and had no choice and we had to use the magnums.

I couldnt get winchester pdx to expand.they passed right through my test media. Federal hst always expand. Critical defense ditto. Out of the 638.
Try to test any ammo you have and make your own conclusions

Thank you all for the excellent replies. My 38 is steel, but for some reason is not labeled for +P, which I think S&W confirmed. In any event, I would rather be cautious. The consensus would imply I need to spend a lot more time at the range, and that the 640 with 38+P is the sweet spot. Further perspectives are of course most welcome.

I'm no fan of a basic non +P 38 Special, marginally adequate in my view. I carry Hornady Critical Duty +P in 9mm or a hot .357 for CCW. Having said that I don't believe a single poster touched on one basic issue.

There have been endless discussions of overpenetration in defensive shoots. I have yet to see a documented case of overpenetration wounding or killing someone on the other side of the assailant. I don't want to hear "my best friend said...blah, blah, blah. Show me a police report or court case.

Other posters have touched on a far bigger issue, misses, an issue for someone who has never been there defending themselves and under great stress. Trust me, this isn't chest thumping, I've never been anywhere near any encounter and hope I never am.

That's a major reason I won't carry in a busy public facility like Walmart or a large grocery store. Your assailant might be moving and innocents will be scattering everywhere, nightmare scenario. Don

NEW YORK POLICE WILL START USING DEADLIER BULLETS - NYTimes.com

*Bolding by me.

Firing a .357 round in any sort of enclosed area, especially from a snub, is something I would prefer to avoid. I no longer own anything chambered in .357. All of my HD/CC revolvers are loaded either with 158 grain LHP +P (all of my '70s era .38s) or 135 grain Speer Gold Dot +P ( 442-2 bought new in 2013).

Thanks, Continental for providing actual data. Doesn't bother me to be proven wrong.

It won't, however, change what I carry. I carry what I consider the most effective round on the market, hoping that I never need one. Don

There's no guarantee that a bullet will not pass completely through your assailant. That's why you need to be aware of the background. Shoot high, shoot kneeling, most of all learn to move and shoot. The last is easier than you might think, and makes you a more difficult target.

A snubbie doesn't have .357 ballistics. By what measure? It's pretty obvious to me that .357 M from a 3" revolver has more thump than a .38 SPL. Maybe it's 900 fps instead of 1200, but a .38 would be pressed to top 600 fps. Can I control it for a fast followup? You bet. It's even a little exciting to see the sights silhouetted against a wall of orange flame.

What's beyond your target and where your bullet is going to end up are two of the many factors that you must reconcile in that instant before you pull the trigger. Regardless of the threat, you are responsible for where every bullet ends up.

Excellent defensive loads, and agreed on .357 if it's full house, but there are many excellent defensive .357 loads out there now that are well controlled for flash, bang and recoil, while still providing more punch (and likelihood of expansion) than 38+P.

Dear Mr Hapworth,
What would you recommend in 357 that is "well controlled for flash, bang, and recoil"? Thank you!

Speer gold dot .357 mag short barrel ammo is one of the best (There is slow motion footage of this round and it's very impresive!) and its supposed to be a little milder than a full house magnum loading.

The bottom line is a really light kicking .357 mag is just a moderate loading and apart from switching to a slower powder there's not much anyone can do about getting less recoil for the same bullet energy. If you carry a mid-sized 3" or 4" barreled gun then you can get less recoil, flash, better performance and the whole 9 yards but its not quite as convenient as a 2" barreled J frame.

John.

I don't mind the little more kick with the 357magnum when your life is on the line you won't even notice it. In my beginning with the 357 magnum revolvers I tested from 125gr JHP @ 1597ft.ps. And up to the 158gr JHP's too. I was impressed with the accuracy with the 140gr JHP Speer bullets using 2400 powder.

I personally like Remington Golden Saber, Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel, and CorBon DPX; honorable mention to Hornady's Critical Duty and Critical Defense.

This is a nice thought and should be adhered to on the range or while hunting. I don't think that it is practical advice in a defensive shooting, except in the movies.

Politely, I disagree -- a self-defense shooting is the most important time to know what's beyond your target; you'll be shooting under the highest stress and in an uncontrolled setting.

Every single .38spl that has a model #(10,15 etc) can fire .38+p. Some like the air weight M-12 will wear out faster with +p , but can shoot it. Go back and look at the Air Force load for their .38's in the 50's it's a good 300/400 feet faster than today's +p loads. How many guns did the blow up back than? Plus a lot of those were victory models from WWII . Even the WWII load was faster than today's +p loads.

I think the .38spl +p with a hollow point bullet is the best balance between power, expansion, and manageability. I think it does everything you want for self-defense from a revolver reasonably well, without excessive recoil.

Take out the worry factor, don't shoot and just yell "freeze, Miami vice".

I agree that pressure levels seem to have been higher back in the good old days.

However, I was told by a S&W technician to stick with standard pressure ammo in my early 80s model 60 "no dash" to keep it's action tight.

My gun was sent back to the mother ship for a repair several years ago. S&W contacted me to ask a question about the repair and I asked specifically about +P in this gun marked for standard pressure ammo. I was told a few wouldn't loosen it up, but a steady diet of +P ammo would.

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!

I am very grateful for all of you and your excellent information. Trying to reconcile all this, I visited my local gun shop this morning and met a new sales gal who happened to be fond of 357. In keeping with statements above, she seemed to suggest that grains in the 125 range might be better for daily carry, but something in the 158 range might be better in the woods. Agree?