Yesterday I went to a large LGS that always has a big stock of items. I knew I was going to buy a stainless J-frame 640, so I figured I'd check out all their inventory to pick the 'best' one.

I inspected 10 revolvers total. All new in box. Seven 640's, and three 649's. Every single one of these revolvers had various 'problems'.

1) Poorly indexed barrel. Nearly all of the 10 had, to varying degrees, a barrel that was not clocked to 12. A few were VERY bad, and so crooked that one corner of the squared barrel was about touching the square corner of the frame.

2) Forcing cone problems: four of the revolvers had a forcing cone that had sharp metal shavings on the inside of the cone. four of them had forcing cones of inconsistent thickness.

3) Only two of the ten guns had cylinders that locked up tightly with the trigger back. The other eight had noticeable slop in the cylinder in full lockup.

4) Crane to frame slop: 4 of the revolvers had a crane that would slightly open up when lateral pressure was applied to the cylinder.

The gun I bought was a model 640. Good forcing cone, straight barrel, extremely tight lock up with trigger back. The only issue was a crane to frame slop when outward pressure applied to cylinder. I would call it 'wiggle' between frame and crane. However, when I hold the trigger back, the wiggle is very minimal, because the hand engagement and the locking bolt are so tight, it holds the crane in line pretty darn well.

So there's an update on stainless J-frame inspection. I'm NOT whining or complaining---just reporting the facts as I observed.

I'd say that 8 out of the 10 guns I inspected would shoot just fine, and would work for 90 percent of gun owners who shoot it once or twice a year, and put it in a drawer or safe. The only ones I think would have problems are the forcing cone metal shavings (which could screw up the bullet), and the badly indexed barrels that could lead to frame crack or really poor accuracy.

Bought a S&W 649 online from Bud's last year.
Must be lucky as the function and finish were fine.
Put XS big dot front sight on it and am very happy shooter.

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2B1ASK1

I'm very new to the revolver world - getting in late last year with a M&P340 and a 642NIL. Those things you listed - I don't believe I know for sure how to check any of those. Exception is looking inside the forcing cone for sharp edges.

Welcome to the new smith & Wesson. Sad very sad.

Yes, todays Smith & Wesson's are the "new and improved versions - NOT!

And why I'm attracted to the LCR

Makes you wonder if they are doing a detailed final inspection on each of the guns that are being produced. If they are, then the standards by which the guns are judged as "passing" have definitely been changed.

My recent 442-1 purchased at the end of 2015 suffers from a canted barrel. Shortly after purchase, I sent it back to be corrected. It was returned unchanged two weeks later. Apparently there is a degree of error that is "acceptable".

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

My 'guess' would be that the range of acceptable factory specs have gradually loosened up quite a bit over the years.

Things that would have been 'out of spec' are now included in the range of 'in spec'. The range of in-spec endshake has seemed to broaden. A gunsmith once told me it used to be 0-.002. Now, I commonly see new S&W revolvers with at least .002 endshake.

The frame-crane gaps are big, whereas they were always a very tight seam. While I have seen some old pinned barrel S&W's with slightly canted barrels, it's now much more prevalent.

They seem to pay a lot of attention to the finish still--tool marks are rare, side plates are usually good. It's just that the lock work and fit is much looser.

I just received a Model 60-15 Pro about a week ago. I looked it over at my FFL, so I brought it home. Being a new revolver shooter as of last April or May, I inspected it further, using some of the posts in this forum for reference. As a result, I'm pleased to say that everything was great with my new gun.

A 640 Pro is also on my list, mostly for my wife to carry in her purse, if she gets her license, so I'm sorry to hear about problems with the QC on those.

I do think everyone will have their own subjective standards of what is a 'great' or 'perfect' in spec revolver.

Here's my context: Pick up a new in box (if you can find one) pre-war M&P hand ejector, OR a nib model 27 or Registered Magnum pre 1975. The earlier the better. Check out the cylinder lock-up with the trigger held to the rear. take a look at the crane-frame gap. Then compare it to the modern S&W's that we would generally count as 'works great'.

There will be a world of difference. My standards align more with the old model 27's type fit. This is not to say that the new guns will not work. they will generally work just fine. What I consider 'problems' is probably pretty nit-picky.

friend's sister worked for one of the Big Three auto plants. Her job was to check brake rotors for "run out" For years she alone had final say if a part was good or bad. Over the years allowable became more and more. when she would cull a part out, it no longer went to the recycle bin but to another inspector who would check it again to make sure it wouldn't work! Both positions were replaced by a robot. She took the early buyout program.

There used to be a time where you can say a revolver was more reliable than a semi auto and days are gone.

One of my 2 M&P 340s of last fall had that forcing cone problem the OP mentioned. I detected it when cleaning: the flat cleaning rod tip would bump up against a projection at the rear edge of the forcing cone. A forum buddy with this gun referred to it as a "wire edge," an irregularity from the machining process that should have been removed before assembly. My gunsmith removed it with a chamfering tool.

Thing is, I think I know how to inspect a revolver, but this is a new one to me. Now, I'll have to check for a similar burr in the future. It's all so sad.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

I was at a LGS a few weeks ago looking at his J frames. Of the maybe 10 he had only one had a very slightly canted barrel.

From watching the other forums I think QC may be an industry wide problem. Over at Ruger to read the forum one would think UPS is wearing out trucks taking guns back for warranty work.

I have seen older guns with the same problems as complained about these days. Only difference is the internet gripe line is always open. They happy people are outside shooting.

When I picked up my new 627-5 pro I checked it for these kinds of defects. I got a good one.
If S&W doesn't watch their quality control better then they might lose a lot of business. I have to agree it isn't just S&W having problems. Could be their putting out so many guns now they are letting some bad ducks get out.

Thanks for the update.

I remember the Model 38 I bought in the mid-sixties, that wore a hole in my thumb cocking it. Took far less than a year to disappear (both the gun and the scar).

I remember the Model 63 I bought in the early seventies. It was OK, but I had to go to several gun stores and check out half a dozen (?) guns before I found one that was acceptable.

Those weren't the "good old days" I was trying to remember.

I recently read Smith and Wessons sales were up 40% last quarter. Of that percentage 70% were of the CC variety, you don't have to look to far to see where the problem lies, over production with less quality control. Just my opinion of course.

l just went thru the checks mentioned by 1776 on a recent Colt Police Positive addition from 1930...Gun looks NEW except for some ''electro pencil'' graffiti...Little COLT checked out perfect...

Net my well worn Outside. My very FIRST handgun. Purchased New from G E X in Charleston 1970. $72. Maybe 300 factory wadcutters fired thru it.. Like NEW inside 1970 Chiefs Special.. lt was perfect TOO.

Last and least a 642-2 PC Power Port IL from 2010...purchased used.. NOT so good.. Cyl wiggles after trigger pulled on ALL 5 holes. End shake too.

All 3 still go BANG

I think the problem with revolvers is that even with MIM parts, they still need a fair amount of hand fitting compared to the plastic autoloaders now so popular. To keep up with very high production demands AND quality control, this requires actual people who are trained and even (gasp!) talented. Companies these days simply don't want to pay to hire those people in enough quantities to keep the good ones from burning out. It's not just S&W, it's every industry out there. Complete automation in manufacturing is rarely possible, and lemons will sneak through even in the tightest run ships. Quality control problems will remain until the folks in upper management care more about their products than their bonuses. Maybe competition from Kimber will light a fire under them, but, from what I've seen of Kimber's current guns, Kimber has its own QC issues.

I bought a new Ruger 38spl. LCR and I really liked it so much a month later I bought a new 357 LCR. The 357 had to go back right out of the box. Now mind you this is a weapon you bought to defend you and your loved ones life not to shoot tin cans. it's all about getting them out the door as fast as they can. Go to any forum for any make gun and you'll read the same thing. Then someone will post (you hear about problems more because of the internet it always been this way) Bull ****! The gun industry is going to hell just like our country. Will either one ever bounce back I sure don't see it in the near future. Hope I'm wrong. What can we do about it....stop buying there products.... Yea like that's going to happen.

Every time I read one of these threads, I cringe... Not because I believe there is a problem, but because I just don't see it. I run to my vault I start pulling out revolvers... takes a while to look at them all.... and I see nothing!! I mean nothing. I won't say how many revolvers I have purchased over the last 6 years, but I can say, it's a bunch. And not only new production pieces, but old S&W revolvers as well. My experience has come across more problems with the older no lock revolvers than the new lock revolvers. Still haven't found a canted barrel.. other than one of my older models.

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Jack C

I'll be the "fly-in-the-ointment" I own a dozen S&W revolvers; 11 of which are 1980 and older so no QA/QC issues with any of them. The only new one I own is a 360J purchased a couple years ago as a carry gun. To say I am pleased would be an understatement . Fit and finish are flawless, mechanically excellent, nice smooth trigger, and shoots like a dream with POA/POI spot on at 7 yards. I hope the poor QA/QC you all are describing is not a trend; It would truly be unfortunate

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John

Most of us here are true S&W gun lovers. The average guy in an LGS buys the gun, shoots a box of ammo, and it probably goes in a closet where it can "protect his home".
My issues lie with the lack of quality on many guns coming out of the Performance Center. At $300-$500 more than a comparable model off the factory line, I expect everything to be 100% perfect nearly 100% of the time. No longer the case guys and gals.

In the future, I will restrict myself to sending my standard factory models directly to a heavy duty gunsmith and wait the year while they smooth and polish get them to the spec they should have been when S&W sent them to the distributors for sale to the LGS.

I don't just fault S&W as I have seen many Ruger "special modes" with huge variances in quality.

My 642-1 (PC) is as fresh off the gunsmith's bench as a revolver can get and per my inspection I'm not seeing any of the issues described above. Same goes for my 66-8 that still feels warm from the production line. I'd like to think that most of the guns that leave the S&W production line or the gunsmith's bench are inspected and cleared. However, if and when something squeaks by it appears that S&W has been good to work with. True, sub-standard craftsmanship from S&W should never reach the market but when it does they will remedy it.

They are currently repairing my BG38 that suffered a broken firing pin block (a first according to the S&W tech I spoke with). I'm the second owner. There were no questions, just a "print the shipping label and send it to us and we'll take care of it".

My 2 recent S&Ws have been fine, but I do wonder how some things get past inspection. For instance, the 351c just has raw metal for the cylinder face - completely unpolished and unfinished.

Bingo. I too have purchased a number of S&W revolvers over the past year. All NIB. I have had NO problems with any of them. Straight barrels, tight lock up, and good looking forcing cones. The quality of all my new S&W revolvers has been superb, IMO.

yes i have bought a 60-14 and a 686-6+ this year (2016) and both have flaws. sad as this is the new normal for smith and wesson as others have stated.

I love these 1st posts......

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Jack C

40 or so years ago, I purchased a Model 34 .22RF Kit gun and it was flawless.
40 or so years ago, I purchased a Model 36 38Spl and it was flawless.
30 or so years ago, I purchased a Model 57 .41Mag and it was flawless.
5yrs ago I purchased a Model 642-2 38Spl and it was flawless.
2yrs ago I purchased a Model 63 .22RF Kit gun and it was flawless.
Recently I purchased a Model 60-15 38Spl and it was flawless.
Recently I purchased a Model 629-6 44Mag and it was flawless.
AFAIC, I see a pattern here. Think I'm just lucky?

I don't see a pattern. I see seven good revolvers and a little luck. I have purchased FAR MORE revolvers than the number you mention. Somewhere around 5% have had major flaws requiring factory attention, and that's not counting POA/POI issues on fixed-sight revolvers. I'm not that surprised that you got seven good revolvers, but I'm not surprised that others have gotten a bad one once in a while. That's what happened to me.

+1 ! Me too!

I have 6 Smith revolvers, 4 of which I purchased NIB. Of the 4 I purchased new, none of them had issues; however, one K gun was purchased in the late '70s, one K gun and my J gun were purchased in the early '80s, and the N gun was purchased in the early '90s. Even the 2 S&W revolvers that I bought used had no problems once they arrived in my hands. However, the N frame that I bought used did develop a problem ... the extractor star separated from the ejector rod ... seems it had been a press fit.

In all honesty, I haven't seen any NEW S&W revolvers that have caught my eye, and I despise the internal lock. At this point, should my S&W collection grow, any new Smiths will most likely be OLD Smiths!

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Judge control not gun control!

The one I bought recently is very nice. The other one they had looked like it was assembled in a dark cave...

Let's see... S&W introduced a K-Frame .357 "in the good old days" that had a forcing cone that was susceptible to cracking under .357 Magnum stresses.

Yep, I guess they don't make them like they used to.

I've seen a few pictures on this forum of canted barrels from 1970's and earlier era revolvers.

And I've also seen many posts on this forum regarding new production revolvers and alleged problems such as:

"rough edges" on the crown
"rough edges" in the forcing cone
"imperfect ribs" on the barrel
"canted barrel" where one needs a blow up the picture X10 to discern the cant

And so on.

I've had some legitimate problems with some smiths - One new 60-14 had a very loos yoke, and smith fixed it. But you know what? I had an old Model 60 square butt from the 1970's that had the same problem!

All is well, folks. The hand basket holding the world is still a long way from hell.

Ive purchased 5 smiths over the last year. 3 used pre locks, 686-5 2.5", 3" cs1, 29-4 3". 2 new smiths, 442 performance center and 340 mp no lock. All of them are perfect, even the used ones. While it's my opinion that most of the regular production models lack a professional look anymore, when millions of guns are leaving your factory, a few lemons will get out. Do the math with ANYTHING MASS PRODUCED, and I bet S&W is still far ahead of any manufacturer in regards to QC. I get it though, with the price difference between Smiths and their competition, people expect perfection from them. Where they unfortunately have to make up for it is in the awesome customer service they provide. And that they do in spades.

Nothing new. Back in the mid 2000's, I used to check out guns at my local range while I waited to shoot in the next league set. At the time I genuinely believe SW must be intentionally shipping all their rejects to California to punish the state for it's gun laws. I found defects on most guns, some so bad the guns needed to be returned. I showed the really bad ones to the guys there and they said they would return them.... and of course they just sold them.

That LGS sold so many defective guns that they posted a large signing saying how buyers had to deal directly with the gun maker and they would not get involved. Great service. But the poor quality has been happening for quite a while now.

That's it exactly. Doing a job right requires at least one perfectionist be involved at some point in the process. They no longer exist.

Maybe, but that is like the old saying that in the land of the blind, a one eyed man with 20-200 vision would rule.......

The problem with guns is that they are UNLIKE any other consumer product in that when you buy it, you are stuck with it. Even cars can be swapped out if you get a real lemon. That means for guns the standard of quality should be a quantum leap higher since the buyer is stuck with whatever they take delivery of.

? I no longer have some guns I once owned.

I've been saying away from the new S&W revolvers for a couple of years now after playing the (will send you a shipping label to return it) but decided to take a chance on a BRAND NEW 340pd on Gunbroker. I picked it up today. Cost close to $900.00 I opened the box all excited and this what I seen. The blast shield was falling off. Now it's safe to say I'm DONE for good with the newer guns

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If you think today's S&W revolvers are sloppy they used to be even worse. Back in the 1970's I worked for a major S&W general distributor and the guns put out under Bangor Punta ownership were frequently awful. I ordered a new model 36 3 inch nickel for myself and it looked great. Fired 5 factory wadcutters and had to punch them out of the cylinder with a dowel and hammer; cylinder was unfinished. Had a model 29 come in with no rifling, got a model 27 marked "44 Magnum." We once got a shipment of model 66 revolvers for the State Highway Patrol and they sent their head armorer to inspect the shipment. He turned the whole batch down due to bad quality control and back they went to Springfield. I read a story years ago that S&W had a survey done of their handgun purchasers and something like 80% never fired the gun they bought! Most just loaded it, put it in a drawer and hoped they never needed it. Wonder how many of those would never have gone "bang" if needed. Oh well, at least that 80% didn't know they bought a lemon.

Slabside2, such a big let down when you're opening up an xmas gift just to find it broken. Hopefully you didn't fill out the background check and were able to return it to the seller. 900$ for a revolver and its arrives in pieces! I'd be furious. Sometimes I wonder if a few of these QC issues take place at the gunstores from mishandling by customers and what not? These situations really are disappointing to say the least. Hope it ends well

Yep, $25.00 for the transfer but the dealer is willing to refund all the funds. Yes very disappointed. Guess I'll keep shooting my LCR

since it's so messed up... I'll give you 450 for it... You wouldn't want to sell it for new..

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Jack C

Impossible, I read it on the net.

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Sure you did

My 640 Pro came with the removable rear sight option and is chambered for the little known "335577 MMAG" round.

It is back at the mother ship... Third time back.

On the plus side, if you are an investor in S&W stock it has performed well in the recent years.

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!

I have a mix from 1950's to present. The closest to perfect is a lowly 442-1. The sloppiest is a 1980 10-8 that's the best fixed sight shooter. An ugly 2015 M67 is the best shooter overall. The vintage guns (1950's) are nice in external finish but are nothing special otherwise (other than being rather rare and sought after). They all shoot.

You forgot about all the old J(38, 37) and K Airweights(M12) with cracked frames due to overtorqued barrels.
Yep, don't make em' like they used to.

Almost forgot. Oversized throats on M25's.

Then there's this 28-2 owned by a forum member.





Maybe we should move on to those 1st, 2nd and 3rd G semi's now?

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Sure you did

Today's Smith+Wesson handguns and JUNK TRASH GARBAGE their I said it! All the money time and disspointment I wasted on them over the passed 5 years just pisses me off thinking about it. You guys that got a good one that actually works right out of the box count your blessings but some of us are just not that lucky. Was I a dope after I kept getting a bad one and kept buying another one YES I was. I don't see it getting any better I see it getting worse if that's even possible. It not just S+W it's most all the gun manufacturers guns right now. The odds are down to 30% of getting a good one right out of the box and them odds suck when your buying something your depning on to possibly save you life. Rant done. Oh yea HAPPY EASTER to all.
Mike

I'm really glad I bought a bunch of old S&W revolvers in the last decade or so. I'm keeping them and probably won't buy any new ones. Let me say this, I've been shooting since I was a kid and love revolvers.

I recently bought an LCR in 357 Magnum and it is without question the best ccw revolver in that caliber I've even seen. I have actually enjoyed shooting 357s in it. Of course I stay away from the super hot rounds and stick with Golden Saber, Gold Dot Short Barrel and Corbon DPX, but man, it's nice to carry 357s and know you can deliver an accurate punch with them. At about 17 oz., you can easily pocket carry it too.

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Loyalty Above All.. but Honor