First off let me say that nobody saved any money by reloading, they just got to shoot a lot more! As far as revolvers go the model 14 was probably the standard for Centerfire Bullseye. I used a 6" 686 for years with good luck. Later added a Red dot so the extra length wasn't needed at that point, but I did like the extra weight. It shot .38s' just fine, not all magnums do, some prefer light loaded magnum brass for best results. There were runs of 38 only 686s' made, you see them come up for sale every now and then. Later model 6" 14s' were full lug, but there again you might want to handle one to see if you like the extra weight they add. I did find it a challenge in Rapid Fire with the revolver and eventually went with a high end 9mm semi-auto but my scores don't reflect any big jump for the additional cost.

yow! those black hills wad cutters cost 50 cents/round.
i have no idea how to reload. it looks hard n time consuming.
the cheap way to do it takes more time right?
i don't wanna buy stuff n let it sit there gathering dust.

I'll admit I don't recall what I paid last time, and I buy in such volume factory direct that I get prices I can stomach. My advice may have been flawed as a result.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

if you can tell me how to buy large volume factory direct it would be a great kindness.
i practice daily so saving on volume would work great.

Precision Delta is OK, a PPC friend shoots a good deal of it.
https://www.precisiondelta.com/produ...48wc-case.html

thanks, jim. i book marked that page.
that i can afford.
i have to figure 5,000 practice rounds to master a new gun.
lucky for me, working hard at practice is fun.

Zero might do for you, it did for a PPC national champ.
They have a brass exchange program, send your empties in and they return loaded ammo for less money.
Roze Distribution: 148 GR WCDE, $ Per 1000, EXCHANGE

"IF YOU WANT TO SEND IN YOUR BRASS TO GET EXCHANGE PRICING...Call or email us for an authorization number. We have a LOT of brass that comes in with no name or address on it! "

If you can afford the ammo you want, and you aren't that interested in reloading, don't bother. BUT some of us enjoy reloading and find the ability to tinker with all kinds of loads and get exactly what we want to be fantastic so there is a 'hobby' aspect to it that is shooting related. It's not that hard once you learn, it is time consuming but mainly you just have to be very careful.

If you want to try it a progressive press that spits out one round with each pull of the lever would be nice. One nice thing about the Dillon equipment is that you just pump the lever back and forth rather than pushing down and pulling up. You could do it with your strong arm. I'm actually running into shoulder trouble working my single stage press. Dammit.

Many of us do save considerably on making our own ammo, but generally acknowledge that we shoot more to make up for it, so we really don't save that much.

Me, in order to go through as much ammo as you plan to I would be compelled to reload because I could never afford commercial rounds.

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

It took me a while to discover the Model 14. I am glad I did. The condition, and price were right. It shoots quite well. So, I tried a 8 & 3/8" 10-6. Have only had it to the range once. Time will tell. Bob

Attached Images

	six inch 020.jpg (175.7 KB, 40 views)
	six inch 025.jpg (183.5 KB, 39 views)
	10-6 PPC 006.jpg (203.7 KB, 44 views)
	10-6 PPC 007.jpg (184.2 KB, 39 views)

*
I go to their website, snag their phone #, and call them.

__________________
NHI, 10-8.

The full wad cutter (HBWC) are liked first because the flat nose cuts a very clean hole in the target, and that can gain you a point every once in awhile on a line cutter. Secondly, the hollow base expands to fill the lands & grooves for a complete seal of the gasses, and that can keep the accuracy more consistent. If you want to use these with a speed loader, you will want to have the chamber mouth's chamfered for ease in inserting them. In Bullseye you will normally have plenty of time to load singly.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Bad Elbow ?
You might consider a Model 15 4" and 2.5-2.8 grains bullseye with a 148 grain cast wad cutter bullet.
With either "K" frame 4" or 6" you can change grips, trigger, or hammer to suit your needs.
IIRC (?) the above load sighted in for a 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards and a dead center hold at 50 yards will get you in the black scoring ring.

a Model 16 customized by Hamilton Bowen. It has tight 38 Special 148 wadcutter chambers, tight enough that American Eagle 158 Round Nose are a press fit the last 1/16". The barrel is now a tight .3565" with a 1 in 14" twist. The gun shoots WW white box 148 wad into 1.5" at 50 yards and AE 158 RN into 2" at the same distance. All six chambers shoot into the same group and the action pre-times very consistently allowing me to stage the trigger DA in both timed and rapid fire. By far the best Bullseye revolver I've ever shot.



A close second is my Model 27-2. It shoots AE 158 RN into 2.5" at 50 yards, but won't shoot 148 wad worth a ****. When I shoot full power 357 ammo, it prints much tighter...with some loads going into 1.5" at 50 yards.


I've found that revolvers can be and often are as picky regarding ammo choice as 22LRs are.

Keith

Susie,

The 38 Special wadcutter can be an effective self defense round. The flat part of the bullet is called the metplat. Handgun hunters have learned that the larger the metplat, the more shock that the game (or vermin) experiences, which incapacitates it quicker.

You may find that the traditional S&W target grip is too hand filling for you. I have found on my PPC/house Model 14/K38 Masterpiece, that this can be remedied easily with the use of a Hogue Monogrip.

In the attached photo are my 3 K Masterpieces (top to bottom):
Model 14-4 38 Special with the 3Ts
Model 14-1 38 Special with Hogue Monogrip and service trigger and hammer
Model 17-3 22 Long Rifle with the 3Ts

Attached Images

IMAG0071.jpg (59.1 KB, 46 views)

__________________
Judge control not gun control!

Hey Susie
The first dollar you MUST spend on your reloading endeavor is at this site!
My copy is probably 40 years old and it was not the last dollar I spend on reloading! Easter afternoon at my house is a "shooting" afternoon for the family, that's 3 generations! All the rounds shot were reloads of many different calibers in revolvers(one bottom feeding auto jamming decoy anchor) and todays task is to sort the gallon bucket of brass and the majority will be 38SPL!
jcelect

Just a bit of nostalgic history. When I was with the NYPD Firearms and Tactics Section the serious “shooters” there would all use stock S&W model 10 revolvers which shot to point-of-aim (not all do and the fixed sights make those that are even a little off useless for serious target and competition). Grips used were stock factory grips with the addition of a (generally) Pachmayr grip adapter (see photo below).

These guns were used for 25 yards slow/timed/rapid fire competitions. All shooting (all, as in ALL) was done double-action, even slow fire. And, trust me, those guys could shoot!

We had a Ransom Rest at the unit. I would use my model 10 to test various ammos. Shooting the “good stuff” I would group all my rounds into a single ragged hole at 25 yards. I think my model 10 is the most accurate handgun I own (but I’m not interested in debating the issue with anyone!).

Susieqz, all wadcutter ammo is not created equal!! You need to find the most accurate loads (factory loads) out there. For the record, the most accurate wadcutter round I found was some cheap, East European stuff (either Polish or Yugoslav, I no longer recall). It had been manufactured at a military facility. Sealed primers and all. The stuff was incredible. On the other hand we once had a lot of Winchester wadcutters that would barely stay on a combat silhouette target at 25 yards.

Best of luck!

Rich

My model 10. Shoots to point-of-aim. A fixed sight handgun that does that is a wondrous device to possess.

I see Target Sports USA has 1000 boxes of CCI Blazer .38 HBWC for $300/box They have like 21 in stock

__________________
"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Is the Model 16 converted from .32 S&W?

Why is a Model 52-2 out of consideration?

__________________
Good shooting.

The later full lug Model 16s were chambered for .32 H&R Mag. They do not have the earlier .32 S&W Long Model 16s' high collector value.

She wants to compete with a revolver. That's more fun!

Then why a 22/45?

__________________
Good shooting.

She learned from the experience.

Please do not put the tar on to boil and save the hens for their eggs. I will not be selling my Mark I or II in the foreseeable future.

When my tennis elbow was hurting, I put down the Python and picked up my Model 52-2. I had trouble adjusting to the recoil of the 52-2 in rapid fire. I was using 3.0 gr Bullseye under a 148g bullet, same as in the Python. I don't know why it bothered me, I shoot a 1911 in the Marine matches, open sights, no problem. However, recoil in my Python is virtually non-existent. .

thanks, guys. i put in a call to my local ffl guy. he works out of his kitchen.
i asked him to find me a model 15 or 14 locally.

The cylinder is rechambered from 32, but the barrel comes from a Model 17 (22LR). The gun started life as a 4" Model 16 and I needed a 6" barrel for target shooting.
Keith

Susieqz: I fully agree with the previous posters. I have used the M14 with a 6 inch barrel for years and am lucky enough to have the M52 and the M41, plus an M17 so can if necessary use either revolvers or semi-autos for the rim fire and centerfire stages, though I do use an M745 for the 0.45 ACP stage in either case. The M745 was the S&W target model at the end of the 2nd generation semi-autos, though it did stretch into the 3rd generation models. Enjoy yourself and I also agree with reloading, particularly for the 148 grain wad-cutters. dave_n

Susie,

Look at the website for Simpson Ltd out of Galesburg, Illinois. They usually have several M14s for sale. Many seem to be reimported from some European target series. Some have had their DA disabled and are SA only to comply with some European rule. That can be easily fixed by a gunsmith. But Simpsons will at least give you an idea of what's available and the cost.

You may want to also consider a S&W Model 67. This is the same gun as a model 15, but made in stainless steel. 38 Special only. 4 inch barrel. Many were by law enforcement back in the day, used versions are plentiful.

From reading all your post it sounds like you are interested in shooting in your backyard for fun and serious formal competition is not something you have immediate plans for. For this reason and for some others that you stated I believe a 4-inch revolver would be ideal for you.

There is nothing wrong with using a wadcutter bullet for defense. It is the target ammunition that is not recommended for personal defense. That is because Target ammo is loaded to a lower velocity. Many feel the wadcutter is ideal for defense in the 38 Special. However that bullet must be loaded to a higher velocity than Target ammunition.

Since about 1995 Smith & Wesson revolvers have been drilled and tapped for a scope base. These holes are located under the rear sight. This makes mounting Optics very easy. Guns made prior to that time have to be modified by a gunsmith to accept a scope base. For this reason you may wish to look for a newer Smith, if a optic is still something you may consider.

You never said, and no one ever asked, but I assume you're good with buying a used gun. As many of the guns recommended in this thread are older models that are not in current production.

__________________
~ S&W aficionado in training ~

i'd love a used gun that works great.
the problem is that most of the guns i see online are near perfect'
perfect barrel n action make sense, but perfect bluing doesn't.
during snake season i open carry every day.
any gun i get will show holster wear in a few weeks.
i mostly like shooting teeny groups but my guns do double duty protecting me from aggressive snakes.
is the 67 as accurate as the 15?
it looks like i can get a new 67 for about as much as a used 15.
if the price is the same, i'd rather have new, if it's the same gun.

Groo here
As far as how well a gun will group, each is a world of there own.
The old ones had more hand fitting, the new ones have better steel
and better machining .
For you and what you describe, I would get a new or like new
stainless steel 4in and shoot it.
After a while, when the gun is worn in and you are use to it,
then decide if you need/want any changes.
You may want a trigger job, custom grips, different sights,
longer barrel, heaver barrel,or a different gun.
The thing is , by then ,you will have a basses to decide what to buy
or what to tell the gunsmith to build...

Yes. The M67 is just as accurate. They are literally the same gun, except one is blue and one is stainless. Stainless makes a lot of sense for an everyday carry gun. Durable, not susceptible to rust. That's one of the reasons why so many law enforcement agencies issued stainless. Easy to keep looking like new with a little elbow grease and a gray 3M scratchy-pad.

__________________
~ S&W aficionado in training ~

thanks. i'll call the ffl.
not holding my breath tho. this guy works out of his kitchen.
the nearest gun store is 90 miles, one way.

Kitchens are fine. I ordered a pistol in a rental car on my Iphone while travelling between San Francisco and Tiburon, Marin County. And I live in PA. Take that, Jerry Brown.

I happen to have a shooter 14-2 with the 2 T's looking for a home.

I always seem to reach for my 19's and 686's when I go punching holes as a result this longer barreled 14 doesn't get much use anymore.

buck, please pm me about that gun?

with all the kind help here, i've just ordered a beat up 15-4
to find out if i like the breed.
can't seem to post pics here tho.

A wadcutter is like a cookie cutter.. It makes an clean hole in paper targets while round noses just push the paper away.. If you are a competitor, that is important for scoring purposes.

Wadcutters are also effective for self defense as they do the same thing in flesh.. Which would you rather get hit with a flat nosed mallet or an an ice pick. The wad cutter will disrupt more flesh and cause a more serious wound while a round nose slips through and the wound channel returns back to about normal.

Semi-wad cutters are a compromise that cut a round hole in paper but have the hammer effect in flesh.

Your choice.

__________________
Eccentric old coot

thanks, ig.
i tested every round i could find.
this gun only likes wadcutters.
nothing else even comes close.
i hate that because wadcutters cost 40 cents/round.
i'm stuck with them.

__________________
susie

Something to remember, a 2" gun is "mechanically" as accurate as a 6" gun. The difference is the distance between the front and rear sights called the sight plane.

A longer barreled gun is easier to aim and hold steady. The longer the barrel the less our shaking or wobbling effects the gun.

So don't under estimate your Model 15. IT will shoot with the best of them if you do your part.

Good luck and have fun.

__________________
Eccentric old coot

ig, you bring up a question i was gonna ask about short barrel accuracy.
is the snubby limited only because of sight plane?
i've been working on point shooting for over a year.
people say it's not possible, but i can get good groups at 7 yards n t 15 yards, on a good day.
this is from the hip, after 10,000 practice rounds.
if you are saying that a 2'' barrel will do as well as a 4'' from a ransom rest, i'll get a short barrel for point shooting.
will it?

__________________
susie

Just for perspective, who would be wielding the ice pick?

Attached Images

ice pick.jpg (59.1 KB, 39 views)

Hi Susie. A 2" gun is harder to be accurate with due to the shorter sight plane. BUT.... with practice, you can do it. My revolvers are 4" & up. I bought a 10-5, 2" R.B. I like the way it shoots, but have not gotten used to it yet. I had a 3" 65, and could not do much with it. This is better for me. Stocks make a lot of difference with proper fit. A shorter barrel gun will have a lower velocity than a longer barrel gun with the same ammo. Point of impact would be different between the 2.
Am I correct that you have a 2" 15? I was looking for quite a while, but bought the 10. Bob

bob, my 15 is 4''. i've never shot anything shorter.
my other handguns are 5 1/2''.
i've been playing fast draw point shooting from the hip. so i was thinking a shorter barrel would be a faster draw.
since i remove sights, barrel length doesn't matter.
i'm worthless with open sights anyway.

__________________
susie

I remember that now that you mention it. (sight issue) I have toyed with the idea of putting a red dot on my 6" 686-3. All I would need is a mount. Have the optic. Guess I'm a little lazy or something. Bob

A far fetched comparison of snubby and longer barrel shooting..

Make a fist swing it up a point it at a target. Can you tell precisely where your trigger finger "would" be pointing?

Now do the same thing with your trigger finger extended. Was your trigger finger pointing at the target?

This is kinda how the longer sight plane works. It enables you to point the gun at a more "specific" point than the shorter one.

As I said earlier, the snubby will shoot as accurately as the longer gun.

I watched a feller shoot at a metal gong hanging on a cliff 200 yards away and hit it 5 out of 6 shots.

Now he knew exactly where to aim to do it, and if he did it right, the gun did it's part.

I've been in a couple of street squabbles and never saw my sights.. All I could see was his gun coming up to bear on my chest.

There was no time to bring the gun up, it was clear leather and shoot time.

__________________
Eccentric old coot

I started shooting ISU many many moons ago.I was then using a wonderfully accurate model 52.I soon discovered that my focus was as much on the flying away brass as on the front sight.Sold it and bought a 6'' model 14.I never looked back.
The 148gr WC cast bullet is good up to 25 yds from where the 148 swaged HBWC will carry on being accurate up to 50 or 60 yds.After that it'll start to yawn.
I'm sure you can find a commercial reloader in your area that makes a target load for .38spl.and sell it for aprox half price compared to what the Big Boys want for theirs.After all,it was the most reloaded/shot round until the mid 90's when the 9mm took over.
If you like a gun that is a little more noseheavy,a 586/686 could be your cup of tea.But don't forget that shooting onehanded strains your energy more quickly than 2 handed.
Accuracywise,you can find a reasonably priced revolver that will be as or more accurate as an auto that will cost double.I know that I will raise a few words unworthy a little maiden's ears by saying that but I'm ready to sustain the flack it might generate.
Qc

my 15-4 is more accurate than semi auto centerfires i've tried, qc.
lee sent me a clamp on mount that accepts a dot.
with wadcutter n a dot it will shoot a one big hole group at 25 yards, but it's kinda slow.
this point shooting from the hip is insanely fast n i think i'll reach my goal of consistently hitting a 4'' target at 15 yards, which is all i could do with open sights.
people who say that's impossible haven't worked hard enow.
i don't have people pointing guns at me like you, ig.
but i have real world enemies. rattlers n evil bunnies.
if i want the gun, i want it fast.

__________________
susie

Suzieqz,
Take a look at this video, I think you will find it interesting. You may have to watch the clips of his shooting at the aspirin and the ball drop in the holster to see what is really happening.

The Legendary Bill Jordan - Guns & Ammo

His book, No Second Place Winner is a really good read.
An afternoon shooting with him changed my style of drawing and shooting and saved my life more than once.

__________________
Eccentric old coot

thanks for the vid, ig. i never saw it. i have the book because he's my hero.
but, if people know about him, why are they claiming that point shooting at mid range can't be done?
i have been told twice that everybody knows point shooting is just for
arms length..
that's why i started training, because what everybody knows is usually wrong.

__________________
susie

They never saw Bill shoot.

Why, it's cuz handguns ain't no good beyond 15 yards don'tcha know..

__________________
Eccentric old coot

jordan had great natural talent but obviously worked very hard at his art.
i train for bulls eye, 25 n 50 yards.
point shooting from the hip is harder.

__________________
susie