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  #1  
Old 05-24-2016, 06:14 PM
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Default S&W lock hole filler plug?

After searching this and other forums I was wondering if anyone ever come up with a way to fill the small hole left when removing the dreaded lock. Not the key hole but the small hole left when removing the entire lock itself. Not interested in glue, epoxy, screws, etc. But a easy no nonsense solution to the the hole itself. Thanks.
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:45 PM
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The first time I read about somebody wanting to remove the internal lock from a revolver I asked my wife (the prosecutor) if an attorney could make an issue of that if the gun were ever used in a shooting. She just smiled that lawyer smile. You know, the big toothy grin that reminds you of a great white shark.
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Old 05-24-2016, 06:54 PM
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Default The wrong hole?????

People just don't understand what you are trying to ask. The very small hole left when removing the part that say's locked. Not the bigger hole. If I was to worry about all the lawyer's and their so called legal expertise I wouldn't be able to sleep. Just a simple question, Anyone figure a cheap effective way to do this? If not than thanks anyway.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:16 PM
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Forum member was making them last year. Link

Lock plug. Now taking orders to ship next week.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
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People just don't understand what you are trying to ask. The very small hole left when removing the part that say's locked. Not the bigger hole. If I was to worry about all the lawyer's and their so called legal expertise I wouldn't be able to sleep. Just a simple question, Anyone figure a cheap effective way to do this? If not than thanks anyway.
I've looked all over my two lock guns, and I only see one hole associated with the lock. The one you stick the key in . . .
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:33 PM
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Wow, I give up, a picture is worth a thousand dollars. If there is a cheap effective way. Thanks again.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:33 PM
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Just for clarification, as I understand it, you are talking about the "slit" left behind by the missing flag, right next to the left side of the hammer?

I have not seen anything offered that will plug that "hole". Sorry.
I have "The Plug" installed in my IL S&W's, but have left the opening for the flag open, it just don't bother me as much as having a "child safety" on my revolvers...

If the lock itself don't bother you, you could just file the locking tab off the flag and leave everything in place.
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Old 05-24-2016, 07:34 PM
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If I was to worry about all the lawyer's and their so called legal expertise I wouldn't be able to sleep.
I agree. I think an internal lock removal would be the least of my worries if I were ever involved in a shooting.
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Old 05-24-2016, 08:20 PM
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Thanks for the response. I guess no one has figured out a way to hide the hole, slit, or what ever you call it. Maybe I can be the first, Thanks again.
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Old 05-24-2016, 08:43 PM
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If you are talking the little pivot hole on a J frame, I take a stationary hole punch, punch a hole out of a bumper sticker, then put it over the hole. I thought I would have to replace them a lot, but the same stickers have been on my two edc centennials for over a year.

They are both black centennials, so I used a black sticker. Being centennials the don't have the slit next to the hammer.

Last edited by eveled; 05-24-2016 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 05-24-2016, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
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If you are talking the little pivot hole on a J frame, I take a stationary hole punch, punch a hole out of a bumper sticker, then put it over the hole. I thought I would have to replace them a lot, but the same stickers have been on my two edc centennials for over a year.
He's talking about the milled out portion of the frame, to the left of the hammer as you're looking from behind, that the flag occupies. It's not a hole or a slit . . .
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:14 PM
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I suspect the OP is asking about what I would call the "pivot hole", the one that's ~1/16" in diameter, about a half inch "behind" the big hole where the key mechanism comes through. The part that actually blocks the hammer from moving, when you turn the key to lock the gun, is a stud on a plate, and that plate has a small pin that fits into and rotates in the pivot hole. If you want to fill that hole once you remove the lock parts you're going to have to have some way to fix the pin/rod/whatever that you use to plug the hole, so it doesn't fall out (or worse, in, where it will find its way into the mechanicals of the lockwork.) The usual ways to fix a pin in a hole are adhesives or threads, both of which are rejected.

I went through the same mental exercise when I took the lock out of a 638. I used a PLUG to fill the big hole. But the only way I could think of to fill up the pivot hole without permanently affecting the frame was to make a plate that would fill up the cutout in the frame (next to the hammer) that the original lock's operating plate moved in. My replacement plate would have a pivot pin in the proper place, but would NOT have the stud on the back that blocks the hammer. The replacement plate would be held in place by the hammer, and the little pivot pin would fill up the pivot hole.

In the end I decided it would be a LOT of work to make and fit something that precisely, so I have an open pivot hole in my 638 frame.
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Old 05-24-2016, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrangler5 View Post
I suspect the OP is asking about what I would call the "pivot hole", the one that's ~1/16" in diameter, about a half inch "behind" the big hole where the key mechanism comes through. The part that actually blocks the hammer from moving, when you turn the key to lock the gun, is a stud on a plate, and that plate has a small pin that fits into and rotates in the pivot hole. If you want to fill that hole once you remove the lock parts you're going to have to have some way to fix the pin/rod/whatever that you use to plug the hole, so it doesn't fall out (or worse, in, where it will find its way into the mechanicals of the lockwork.) The usual ways to fix a pin in a hole are adhesives or threads, both of which are rejected.

I went through the same mental exercise when I took the lock out of a 638. I used a PLUG to fill the big hole. But the only way I could think of to fill up the pivot hole without permanently affecting the frame was to make a plate that would fill up the cutout in the frame (next to the hammer) that the original lock's operating plate moved in. My replacement plate would have a pivot pin in the proper place, but would NOT have the stud on the back that blocks the hammer. The replacement plate would be held in place by the hammer, and the little pivot pin would fill up the pivot hole.

In the end I decided it would be a LOT of work to make and fit something that precisely, so I have an open pivot hole in my 638 frame.
I am beginning to understand my confusion. My Governor does not have that hole, but my 60-14 does . . .
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:54 AM
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Wood putty
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muss Muggins View Post
....
It's not a hole or a slit . . .
I'm sorry, English is not my native language.

Would calling it a machined slot be ok with you..?

Last edited by DT75; 05-25-2016 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:34 PM
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I'm sorry, English is not my native language.

Would calling it a machined slot be ok with you..?
Milled channel works for me . . .
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:29 PM
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Close up picture of the left side of a modern J-frame. See the lock hole? See the second little hole to the right? That's little hole is were the flag pivot resides. Remove the flag and that little hole is empty. This is what the OP was asking about. Does this clear it up? AFAIK only J-frames are this way. It ain't about a 'slot" or "channel". It's definitely a hole.

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Old 05-25-2016, 09:33 PM
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Here's one with what looks like a home brew plug. See the empty pivot hole?

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Old 05-25-2016, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
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Close up picture of the left side of a modern J-frame. See the lock hole? See the second little hole to the right? That's little hole is were the flag pivot resides. Remove the flag and that little hole is empty. This is what the OP was asking about. Does this clear it up? AFAIK only J-frames are this way. It ain't about a 'slot" or "channel". It's definitely a hole.
Yeah, a Governor doesn't have that second little hole, hence the hullaballoo on my part. Cleared up for me yesterday when I looked at my 60-14 . . .
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Old 05-25-2016, 09:45 PM
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Kernel - I hate to tell you, but your IL on the J frame looks rusty. You must not be using it enough

and thanks for the photos and description to help clear this mess up!
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
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Kernel - I hate to tell you, but your IL on the J frame looks rusty. You must not be using it enough

and thanks for the photos and description to help clear this mess up!
I thank you to, Sir.
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Old 05-26-2016, 10:26 AM
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Kernel - I hate to tell you, but your IL on the J frame looks rusty. ....
That's not my gun. Just a pic I pulled off the interweb.

You do bring up a good point, though. So many of these ILS parts are rusted. I've seen many brand new guns with a rusted ILS. They must not be blued or anything. They should of made it out of stainless.
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:25 PM
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I'm not that familiar with the new revolvers with the locks but it looks to me that the hole may be a good place to put a drop or two into the lock works? I only have one handgun that came with an internal lock and that's a SIG 1911-22 and I've never used it and it doesn't bother me either. If these locks on the Smiths don't interfere with the normal operation of the piece, why remove it?
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:28 PM
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Maybe I just think too simply. But couldn't that empty pivot hole be tapped and an appropriate plug screw in stainless steel installed?
Jim
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Old 05-26-2016, 01:36 PM
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The OP said cheap, effective and no screws or glue. Otherwise, a threaded pin of the appropriate length and finish with a drop of Loctite probably would be the most reliable long term solution.

One thought, though - we've been told on this forum that S&W will not work on a gun that was sold with an internal lock and return it without a lock. So if it had a lock and you removed it, they will install a new one AND charge you (a lot) for it. If you sent in a gun with no lock and the pivot hole filled with a Loctited pin, aren't they likely to declare the gun non-repairable and not give it back to you?

Last edited by wrangler5; 05-26-2016 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Further thoughts
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:39 PM
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Great place to put a tactical sling mount for the world's first J frame with a tactical sling. Major coolness factor.
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Old 05-26-2016, 02:47 PM
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Zerk fitting.
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:04 PM
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Not to mention endless threads on how to avoid Zerk Thumb by properly adjusting your grip, how to use the fitting as a thumb rest for more accurate deliberate fire, and etcetera (as the ignoranti are wont to say.)
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
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Wow, I give up, a picture is worth a thousand dollars. If there is a cheap effective way. Thanks again.
I recall seeing those plugs for about $35 both in stainless and carbon a few years back. I'll dig around and see if I can still find the guy who was/is offering those. I considered it on a couple of my newer revolver's but apparently I just lost interest. Not sure if it's the same person as referred to in one of the posted links.

Actually, I've wondered if its plausible to weld it and dress it up without compromising the integrity of the frame. If it is, it would be anything but cheap but I'd still be willing to have one done just for the heck of it.
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Old 05-26-2016, 03:57 PM
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The first time I read about somebody wanting to remove the internal lock from a revolver I asked my wife (the prosecutor) if an attorney could make an issue of that if the gun were ever used in a shooting. She just smiled that lawyer smile. You know, the big toothy grin that reminds you of a great white shark.
Apparently lawyers don't understand it is a STORAGE lock, not a SAFETY lock.

No one with any brains uses a STORAGE lock on a gun they are actively using for self-defense.

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Old 05-26-2016, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
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The first time I read about somebody wanting to remove the internal lock from a revolver I asked my wife (the prosecutor) if an attorney could make an issue of that if the gun were ever used in a shooting. She just smiled that lawyer smile. You know, the big toothy grin that reminds you of a great white shark.
I wonder how she'd respond if you asked her if someone was wanting to remove the original grips and replace them with a custom set? Or remove the front/rear sights and replace them as well? Or maybe remove the original matte finish and polish it up? Or how about a Wolff spring set? ... I think lawyers could make a case for anything. I just don't worry about it. If you end up having to shoot someone in self defense most likely it will be ruled as "self defense" unless you premeditated it. Laws in my state have Castle Doctrine too, so if someone were to break in, doesn't matter if that lock on my revolver was there or not.
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Old 05-26-2016, 04:36 PM
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Lawyers ARE trained to make a case for anything. And sadly, if a prosecutor thinks it will help convict you of a crime if he can argue to the jury that you tampered with a "safety" on your gun, no judge is going to prevent him from doing so. If a prosecutor decides to do that, it means your lawyer is going to have to spend his time and your money finding, preparing and introducing evidence to convince a jury that the mechanism was NOT a "safety" but a "storage" mechanism - and you can only hope that it will be persuasive. Since the prosecutor will have worked to get a jury as gun-phobic and gun-ignorant as possible, that may be a tough task. Remember that the prosecutor has the final argument to a jury, and in those final remarks will be a reminder that you disabled a "safety."

Admittedly the facts of a case have to allow a gun "safety" to be introduced as an issue, but the facts of a shooting can develop and change in fractions of a second in ways you cannot control, even if you had time to think about it. And since you have the complete and absolute power to insure that such an argument cannot be made against you under any circumstances - by not fiddling with the lock mechanism - the most prudent/cautious advice is to leave a lock alone if the gun has one.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:03 PM
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Damn Mr Trout, you are a visionary and thank you for your words of wisdom. Thanks again.
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Old 05-26-2016, 11:40 PM
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To each their own, but from my point of view, the locks are so very tiny to start with, why bother?
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:18 PM
kilroy2721 kilroy2721 is offline
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I just left everything intact...I just ground the lock down so that it doesn't lock the hammer in place.
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Old 05-28-2016, 01:58 PM
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I just left everything intact...I just ground the lock down so that it doesn't lock the hammer in place.
Only problem with that is trying to find a good lock to replace it with if you ever wanted to put the lock back in the gun. Selling, warranty work etc. People say to look on e-bay for them, I can tell you now, I haven't seen one for sale yet. And I doubt S&W will sell you one either.
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:03 PM
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I just left everything intact...I just ground the lock down so that it doesn't lock the hammer in place.

I did the same and it works for me on my J Frame Model 60-15. Lock components still intact less the locking pin, Perfect.
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:13 PM
kilroy2721 kilroy2721 is offline
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Only problem with that is trying to find a good lock to replace it with if you ever wanted to put the lock back in the gun. Selling, warranty work etc. People say to look on e-bay for them, I can tell you now, I haven't seen one for sale yet. And I doubt S&W will sell you one either.
I haven't seen them for sale either, but anytime your gun goes into the factory for work...they will automatically replace/fix it...even if you tell them you don't want it fixed. I have had to grind it down more than once.
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:14 PM
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Only problem with that is trying to find a good lock to replace it with if you ever wanted to put the lock back in the gun. Selling, warranty work etc. People say to look on e-bay for them, I can tell you now, I haven't seen one for sale yet. And I doubt S&W will sell you one either.

Locking device should be the least of your worries, at least it will fire when you Need it. Just how the Government wants to regulate us to keep us safe from ourselves, called Control the People they do not know what is good for them.
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:29 PM
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What happens when that gun falls into the hands of a future owner who thinks he has a functioning lock and it fails to work when it should?
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Old 05-28-2016, 02:42 PM
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What happens when that gun falls into the hands of a future owner who thinks he has a functioning lock and it fails to work when it should?
That is why I removed it and saved it without destroying it. That's why I started this thread to see if someone had figured a way to plug the small hole rather than grinding the flag down. I had a J frame before and sold it and the individual wanted the lock restored so I put it back. Kinda hard to do it if grind ed down.
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Old 05-28-2016, 03:16 PM
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My point exactly. Either remove the lock and plug the hole, or leave it alone. Don't modify it.
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Old 05-28-2016, 04:40 PM
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That is why I removed it and saved it without destroying it. That's why I started this thread to see if someone had figured a way to plug the small hole rather than grinding the flag down. I had a J frame before and sold it and the individual wanted the lock restored so I put it back. Kinda hard to do it if grind ed down.
I make plugs for the lock hole. Only the J frame has the "extra" hole. I've been giving some thought to the small hole. Carefully measure the pin on the flag of a removed lock. See if there is a dowel pin of the same diameter available. If so, and I think it's around .050, it could simply be pressed in the hole and driven out with a punch if there were need to replace the lock.
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Old 05-28-2016, 08:51 PM
kilroy2721 kilroy2721 is offline
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What happens when that gun falls into the hands of a future owner who thinks he has a functioning lock and it fails to work when it should?
I thought about it before doing it to mine, including any possible potential legal issue's with doing it, and I came up with the decision that if I ever needed the gun to fire right then and there, I don't want some possible chance to go wrong.

As far as legality issues, the lock is just for "storage and child safety". I could always put a trigger lock on it, or throw one of those cable locks on it.

But why sell? Never sell only buy.
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Old 05-28-2016, 09:22 PM
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There is a problem with your strategy. You are not the last owner of that gun, and probably your children/grandchildren aren't either. Once the gun is passed on to someone else, they may assume the lock works. You or your heirs may tell the original purchaser that the lock is inoperable, but subsequent buyers will likely not know.
The new owner, Billy-Bob, is not a real gun guy. He loads her up, locks the lock, and goes about his business. The home is filled with inquisitive kids. You can probably see where this is going.
Remove the functional lock and plug the hole, or leave it alone. Just my 2 cents. It's your gun, do as you please, but don't think you're going to be it's only owner. It may be easily have a dozen or more owners before being religated to antique status.
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Old 05-28-2016, 10:15 PM
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There is a problem with your strategy. You are not the last owner of that gun, and probably your children/grandchildren aren't either. Once the gun is passed on to someone else, they may assume the lock works. You or your heirs may tell the original purchaser that the lock is inoperable, but subsequent buyers will likely not know.
The new owner, Billy-Bob, is not a real gun guy. He loads her up, locks the lock, and goes about his business. The home is filled with inquisitive kids. You can probably see where this is going.
Remove the functional lock and plug the hole, or leave it alone. Just my 2 cents. It's your gun, do as you please, but don't think you're going to be it's only owner. It may be easily have a dozen or more owners before being religated to antique status.
+1 for this analysis. Since the lock mechanism has already been made nonfunctional, removing the lock parts is the prudent step.

Like many things legal, the chances of getting sued for leaving a nonfunctional lock in place may be tiny, but if you (or your heirs) DO get sued the financial consequences can be catastrophic. (WILL be catastrophic, regardless of the outcome, if you don't have insurance that covers your legal expenses.) Removing the lock parts eliminates ALL risk of somebody thinking that the gun is locked when it really isn't.

Plugging the lock "cylinder" hole would be optional - some say leaving it open doesn't really let gunk get inside, but a plug seems much more sensible. EPJ sells 'em through an ad in the forum classifieds, with pictures of how one looks and how they're held in place.
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