I point the muzzle at my face frequently, because that's were my eyes are. Of course a gun has been cleared and the action open, magazine removed etc. Revolver with the cylinder swung out and empty chambers never shot nobody.

I agree that ECM rifling makes a muzzle appearance that takes getting used to but the barrels I have shoot extremely well, including cast.

I couldn't find it locally, and looked for over half a year. Once again I'm not loosing sleep over $700. I'm upset that S&W has let their quality standards slip this low, and wanted to share this with others so they can make sure to inspect the hell out of their next purchase.

Well, the thing is we have no idea what any stranger's motive is when purchasing a gun. Perhaps he's a shooter, perhaps a collector, maybe a mix of both, possibly none of the above. I suspect there are as many different reasons people buy guns as there are people themselves.

Again, we can't necessarily assume anyone's only a shooter. But let's say this guy is. I haven't argued that cosmetics are more important than function, only that cosmetics are indeed something to consider. After all, if function was all that mattered, we wouldn't be on this forum but instead be discussing all the Hi Points and other perfectly fine but less-refined shooters we all own instead of S&Ws.

I have no idea why people do this. In this case, the OP states he overlooked the crown. People miss things, it happens. The guy said he realizes this was his big mistake. I think he gets it and we've got him sorted out now.

However, what I was objecting to is the implication, via the all-too-common "Yeah, but how does it shoot?" replies we see when any cosmetic issue is brought up here, that sub-par appearance is no big deal or is "just the way things are now" and thus somehow acceptable when it's not or that just because one guy views guns as mere tools where cosmetics are of little concern, everyone else should, too.

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SWHF #448

Many people buy guns and cars for more than basic function. There is such a thing as pride of ownership. That is one reason for buying more expensive products.

Fan boys...

- If this were a Charter Arms, Taurus..or insert any other manufacturers name...You guys would be all about bashing em and saying "Shoulda bought a Smith"...

- Comments like "Well its your fault, you accepted the gun"...pretty disgusting. A page right out of the Used Car salesman handbook.

- How about we comment on shoddy workmanship of a product and manufacturer. I dont really care if a gun just shoots great, there is a thing called fit/finish and its also supposed to be included in the cost of an item. Obviously Smith and Wesson is overlooking this these days so lets acknowledge that a bit more and not bash people for bringing it up or disgustingly stating that its now the "Buyers Fault"

Fan boys...

I didn't read every post in this thread but I just want to ask a question?? What, if anything, that we buy today reflects the quality and workmanship and pride that manufacturers use to exhibit? Just sayin'.

Benchmade knives, Snap-on wrenches, and Japanese cars to name a few. To your point though, very little does. However, I'll be damned if I don't do what I can to keep this from getting any worse. A large number of people in America are of the mindset that we need to keep manufacturing jobs here, and will buy American if they can. When American manufacturers don't give a **** about the quality of their products they loose their only advantage. My new Taiwan Spyderco knives are a hell of a lot nicer than my USA made ones.

Lot's to take away here:

1. The current S&W company is not the same S&W company of the past. It's had its ups and downs, let's hope quality is not down to stay.

2. Current manufacture guns go out the door if they are in spec or "good enough". It's like selling a shovel the S&W, not a new sports car.

3. It's best to inspect a gun in person before you buy it. Especially if you are discerning (or just plain picky).

4. If you buy over the internet, inspect it well before accepting it. If it is flawed - send it back. You are out some money, but buying over the internet is always a gamble.

The market will take care of the rest.

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My sgntr is mor thn 30 chrctrs

The rifles or the baseball team?

I can't imagine buying a gun or taking delivery of a gun...new or used...without thoroughly inspecting it.

So I assume that if I was dissatisfied that the gun had some cosmetic imperfections that, as an owner, you know, the one who paid the money, was disappointed with, that I would be asked, "How does it shoot," by some folks on here; evidently.

Yunk being marketed based on a great reputation earned by someone else.

I made a bad judgement call. I couldn't find them locally after searching for several months, didn't check the crown, figured S&W would take care of the other issues (they did), so I proceeded..

That is all beside the point. S&W's quality control has gone to **** and I wanted to bring that to light.

......I've seen worse. I feel about crowns the same way I do about barrels. There should be no reason why a top flight gun manufacturer should not be able to screw a barrel on straight or machine a decent crown. The crown on my 686 doesn't look that great, but I can't complain about how it shoots one bit. So I don't worry about it.

I believe that "It is in spec" is a good reason not to fix something, but I also believe sometimes that the 'specs' are way too loose.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Ok, you got me!

This is the first year I've bought a new gun in 13 years -- back then it was a flawless PC 500, which even after all the rounds through it, still looks like it did back then. This year I've picked up a 360PD, 60LS, M&P340, and finally the 640 Pro I mentioned earlier.

Of all the NIB Smiths I've bought (going back 40 years), not one had cosmetic, mechanical, or any other issues... until the 640 Pro. I was lulled into believing every NIB Smith was flawless and didn't really need to be viewed through a magnifying glass before being carried out the shop's door.

It was daylight in the shop when I picked up the 640 Pro so I didn't notice the dead Tritium front sight (till that night at home). And I would NEVER dry fire a gun in the shop so, again, the lousy, gravelly trigger didn't show itself till I got home and tried it with snap caps. The factory solved those two faults but refused to address the cosmetic issues.

Inasmuch as I've come to accept the ugly milling on my 640 Pro, I sincerely appreciate -db-'s take, and as I promised the factory CS guy, I've bought my last new Smith. It wasn't an idle threat, but he didn't really care. I should not have to "inspect" a new gun the same way I do an old one. I've bought six used guns this year, and none have had the issues I encountered with my NIB 640 Pro. I'll continue to buy used Smiths, after a thorough inspection, or course.

Cheers,

Bob

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

Your trigger sounds just like mine was. I measured mine at close to 6 lbs.

Right now I'm weighing my options. Part of me wants to sell all of my S&W's and buy a Korth.

If that will make you happy, then do it.

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

Comparing that gun to a new car with scratched paint is silly. It is more like a new car with scratches inside the exhaust pipe.

If I can't hold a gun in my hand, inspect it and dry fire it, I don't buy it. Hence I don't buy online. I will gladly pay $40-$50 more so I don't have to deal with such stuff.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

No one said that there is something wrong with being dissatisfied with a product.

If you are dissatisfied at the dealer DON'T become the new owner of the product you are dissatisfied with.

To take possession of something you are already dissatisfied with just makes no sense to me.

if you re-read the OPs first few posts, he saw the cosmetic issues BEFORE taking possession and brought the revolver home anyway. THEN he complained about the cosmetic flaws and the fact that the manufacturer was not willing to make it as pretty as he thought it should be.

Except my gun's crown is uneven, not scratched on the exterior. I touched up some rock chips on my new car last weekend, and they are now invisible. Fixing the crown on this gun is more involved. However if you'd like to see how silly it is I invite you fire one of your perfectly crowned guns, take a dremel to the crown, and see if there's any difference.

In a perfect world this might be true but in this reality? With all of the complaining you see on this and other Forums and the number of guns sent back for rework, just how much change in Smith & Wesson's quality stance and business model have you observed??

I thought so!!



Bruce

If YOU re-read my post you'll see that they took care of my cosmetic issues, but not the crown that I had originally failed to notice. Are you going to argue that a barrel's crown is merely cosmetic? Are you willing to send a ransoms rest my way with a 4" 686 that has a perfect crown, and several types of ammo for an accuracy test? I can't prove that my crown isn't cosmetic without a test like that, but at the same time you sure as hell can't argue it is cosmetic. Logic is not on your side with this.

I seriously don't understand the fan boy leg humping. My post was to add one more account of this company going to ****. If I sell this gun I'll loose maybe $50. That's not a big deal to me. S&W's disregard for quality is concerning to me, and as avid fans of the company it should be more concerning to you too.

Yes, the image you provided is of a cosmetically imperfect crown, not a dysfunctional one.

That is why we are asking how it shoots, as evidence of a lack of functionality

I never bought a new S&W, although I own several of their revolvers. I would not buy a new one at this point. I would not like to send a gun back. I did it once in 1990, with a new Taurus revolver. After a very long while, they sent me a new one and I immediately sold it without shooting it.

These threads are very tiresome to read.

Maybe you should go buy a Korth?

I understand that you're upset and indeed S&W needs to tighten up on quality control.

When I buy a gun, I will spend as long as it takes to examine it. The slightest blemish and I will reject it.

The above method saves me a lot of time in the future by not having to write a miserable topic.

What's it cost to have a barrel re-crowned? A couple of boxes of bullets?


Yeah, I know S&W _should_ do it, but they aren't and that's bad on them. But if it bothers that much, take it to a competent smith you trust to do quality work and have him _fix it_.

Well, I was curious about some of my guns, so I went to look. I had to get the magnifier to get a good look at the bevel on the crown of my "shooting gun" a 627-2 from the late 90s. It was then I realized that the pictures shown were magnified several times, and when magnified, the crowns on the 627-2 and two others I looked at were not as well done as the OP's gun. The crowns looked fine with the naked eye, but not near so good under 5x magnification. I wonder what the OP's looks like with the naked eye?

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Like this.... Still easy to see it is about 1/16" uneven from left to right. NOT because of the rifling cuts.

My dad was fond of saying that some people will argue with a stop sign. As I got older, it didn't take me long to come around to his point of view.

I can see a stop sign out my living room window.

Nobody stops. NOBODY!

Are they arguing or ignoring?

Is S&W arguing with standards or ignoring them?

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

To the OP, I'm sorry you are having issues with your revolver. You are correct in your assertion that your problem highlights a bigger concern than the crown of an individual handgun.

I too have personally experienced the slipping quality coming out of Springfield. My last new S&W revolver required four trips back and two replacement barrels to make it right. To S&W's credit, they kept sending me shipping labels until the gun was fixed. However, it left me unimpressed enough with the brand's current level of quality to suspend any further purchases until things improve...

Good luck with your 686. As others have mentioned, a competent local gunsmith will be able to recrown your revolver's barrel.

Unfortunately, S&W didn't take the ten minutes required to fix the issue while they had your handgun. This would have resulted in a happy customer recounting the story of how S&W takes care of problems. Instead, they have a disgruntled customer and we have this post.

Edmo

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TRUTH: Don't delete my posts!

I retired as a Quality Control Mgr. after 26 yrs. You bought a blemished handgun, sent it back to be upgraded to an excellent handgun. S&W done what you asked, BUT, missed something. In the mean time S&W is doing other work for ? thousand's of customers? You get back in the loop again, a VP talks to you and gives you an answer, Hundreds maybe thousands more get in the loop. You try to back door the system and get an employee written up because YOU ARE NOT satisfied. Brother some times you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. Live with it.

I say again the crown countersink was bored off axis to the bore.
We have seen examples in here where that has happened to the barrel throat (forcing cone) which is a more serious error.
Unfortunately, only you can now decide what you want to do about it given S&W's current move to more relaxed standards.
Any decent gunsmith that is a master machinist will be able to touch that up and make it look right in a jiffy.
I guess S&W doesn't have any of those left.
And if it will make you feel better, send the bill to them.
Don't hold your breath though.
Theoretically that defect might throw the POI off from what it would have been.
Predicting accuracy though is a hazy business at best.

This thread has been an interesting probe into the psychology of revolver owners .. so thank you!

These are the only 2 full width S&W barrels I have out at the moment.
One is button rifling the other is ECM (and is full of lead from firing #8 shot).

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	696-1Muzzle.jpg (159.5 KB, 69 views)

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NEMO
"Everything 44"

I thought this op's post sounded familiar. I checked his previous post about a 629 he was also dissatisfied with. I'm reminded of a friend of mine who was never happy with ANY firearm he bought. It didn't matter is it was new or used, if he couldn't find a problem with it AFTER he bought it, he'd try to create one. He became a nightmare to all lgs in our area. It all just sounded familiar!

I think I brought up this same logic before and don't believe it was well received here. It is 100% true though. Since then I have quite trying, because too many people obviously enjoy buying these 'quality' newer guns and just don't want to hear it. So now my opinion is everyone can enjoy whatever guns they want if it makes them happy. I am perfectly fine with it. The important thing is, I know what makes me happy, and what makes me happy is buying metal artwork of days long gone. Also, one of the reasons I come on here is to read all the current issues that get posted up as it amuses me. So what would I do if it stopped.

To the OP, good luck with your gun. A professional smith should be able to fix it, but that's not the point. You should not have to pay money out of pocket to fix a factory defect. All of you saying just deal, wait until your next fine firearm comes looking like that and I bet your opinion changes quick.

I have 29 firearms. 27 of which I bought new. 3 have been sent back, my 686, and my 629, and my Kel-Tec Sub 2000.

Thanks buddy! If I keep the gun I will send it off for a re-crown, bead blast finish, and action job.

This thread is hilarious.
The op has three options.

1. Find someone who can shoot it accurately and see if there is an actual problem.
or,
2. Send the gun to a private gunsmith and have the crown cut to his/her acceptable standards.
or,
3. Sell the gun and do an better inspection before laying down the cash/credit card on the next one.

I forgot a fourth,

4. Throw all your magnifying glasses, high intensity lamps, and microscopes in the trash and go shooting. Been there, done that on one return. Ten minutes after it was returned from the factory I forgot what the issue was in the first place.

My experience with crowns is that even a small nick or irregularity wreaks havoc on accuracy. An asymmetrical or damaged crown means that at the last moment the bullet exits the barrel the gases give an uneven push and destabilize the bullet. The smallest nick in the crown can destroy accuracy.

If I had a crown as shown in the photos here, I would have it corrected immediately. I would not waste ammo even trying it out.

So yes, you can count this as a vote for the OP and his worries.

A 640 Pro recently went back to the online seller from an FFL near here due to a crown that looked similar to the OP's and due to a yoke that severely interfered with the frame and wouldn't close without being deflected 10-15 thousandths. Fortunately, the online seller is a good one and made it no hassle. And the buyer was smart enough to call them and arrange the return prior to putting a drop of ink on the 4473.

That is ridiculous. I'm glad the Army just kicked them out of the bid for their next sidearm. There is no excuse for these guns getting past their QC to began with. And yes, I made a mistake by accepting the transfer.

I can't believe this is STILL being discussed. Have we accomplished anything?

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

I'm good with letting this thread die. It has more than served its purpose. Thank you to those who contributed.

I was curious so I went through some of the guns in my safe. I have purchased four new Smith & Wessons since the first of the year. I just examined the crown on each of them. I confess, even though I was a S & W armorer for over 20 years, I never thought to examine the crown on my barrels until I read this thread.

All of the crowns look perfect, except the one on my new 686 plus 3". Although the photo may not show it all that well, the crown on that barrel is at least as bad as the one that the OP posted photos of. The left side of the barrel in the photo has hardly any crown to it while the right side is visibly deeper. That is tough to photograph by the way.

I was originally disappointed in the accuracy of this revolver as it wouldn't shoot any of my 158 grain or 180 grains loads into a group you could cover with a hat at 25 yards. Then I tried some 125 grain loads. This revolver exhibits stellar accuracy with 125 grain .357 loads. The target on the left in the photo is six rounds of Remington 125 grain Golden Saber factory loads from a rest at 25 yards. Yeah, I went out and stocked up on that Load!!

It would be interesting to see how it affected accuracy if I would have the crown trued up. But I doubt that I will bother as I really like how this revolver shoots at present. It may not shoot as well afterward.

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The OP has a valid point of view.
It's third-rate work on their part.
The really aggravating part is S&W could have just fixed this in minutes. It's a no-brainer repair to cut a squared muzzle, regardless of profile. That it's on a stainless gun and thus requires no finish work just underscores the point.
You're a paying customer with a legitimate gripe. They could have fixed it right away, probably in less time than squabbling about it at the factory. Instead, they dug in their heels and said "tough luck". They chose to win an argument rather than serve a customer.

Either fix it or sell it, in my opinion. You'll always have a bad taste in your mouth over this if you just leave it.
If you sell it, I wonder how many of the repliers who said it doesn't matter would be willing to knowingly buy it?

Oh yeah, one more thing: Bud's does this sort of thing all the time, especially on their used stuff!

Someone recommended sticking with regular stocking dealers. Good point! Sadly, it's becoming a tougher option all the time!

Best Wishes for a satisfactory resolution,
Jim

I have my eyes on the 629 Performance Center Hunter but having experienced my own and reading about others' problems with S&W quality inconsistencies I may switch this purchase to a Ruger instead as I do not want another dud. I will wait until I start hearing that S&W has fixed their quality check process. I have no way of personally checking a gun before purchase as I special order overseas and I have no way to return a gun for warranty repairs because guns are "too dangerous" to ship overseas by an individual.

EDIT: I made my choice and ordered a new Ruger Super Redhawk 44 Magnum. Ugly as h*ll but more probably mechanically sound.

Yes It's the asymmetry that negatively affects accuracy. A few years ago I purchased a beat up old K38 with severe pitting at the muzzle. I machined the muzzle back even with the front of the sight to clean it up. I made sure it was machined perfectly smooth and perpendicular to the bore to avoid uneven combustion. The results are a muzzle with no "crown" at all, that will print with a target barrel at 10 yards. So, yes any concerns regarding poorly executed counter boring at the muzzle are well founded:

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John

I was about to buy a new 686 at Bass Pro Shop last weekend until I read this thread and checked the pistol out, specifically the crown. I brought my head lamp, magnifier and some other tool with me and checked it out at the counter. Same issue with the crown as the OP posted. The store had another 686 sent to the store, it was worse than the first one and the crane wasn't square with the frame. The store manager said I could buy it and send it back to S&W to fix. Hmm, bought a used Ruger Redhawk .41 mag from a LGS that had no visible issues and shoots great and saved myself about $250 and a lot of aggravation I don't want. The 686 would have been the first S&W I have bought. I am cured of my new pistol blues.

yep thats the new smith & wesson for ya. quality gone out the window