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02-04-2017, 07:17 PM
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Crown looks like ****?
Purchased a snub nose pc 629. Put 24 rounds through, took it home and cleaned it and to my untrained eye the crown looks sloppy. In the pictures you can see (hopefully) that at the 7 o'clock position you can see a couple metal boogers and at the 4 o'clock position there is no rifling visible on crown. As it's a performance center I'm holding it to a high standard. Should I not worry about it or should I contact smith. For an 800 dollar revolver I want it to be right, thanks a lot ps don't know why picture is sideways but when I say 7 and 4 o'clock that's assuming the gun is straight up and down
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02-04-2017, 07:19 PM
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If it shot well, I would think it will smooth out with no problem.
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02-04-2017, 07:21 PM
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That's tough to say as I'm not the greatest shot especially considering I was a little sheepish of 44 magnum
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02-04-2017, 07:34 PM
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You have to run several 100 jacketed through that one. Customer service will say and only to send it in if there is a noticeable accuracy loss.
I've called them several times for different Revolvers on just that. Ecr rifling . Although there has been some discussion as far as broached or ECR. Virtually all revolver rifling is ECR.
They don't look pretty, but........
Have you tried 44 specials through it?
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Last edited by Lou_the_welder; 02-05-2017 at 01:15 PM.
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02-04-2017, 07:45 PM
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No just 24 rounds of fiocchi 240 g jsp. And what's ecr, thanks
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02-04-2017, 07:48 PM
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Electro - chemical rifling.
You need to run more rounds through it. My 627 PC started looking better at around 2k rounds. ..
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02-04-2017, 08:01 PM
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Thanks, 2k rounds, yikes! At 40 bucks a box with tax that's gonna leave an empty wallet and sore hand that's for sure. Maybe I'll try shooting from a supported position and see how the accuracy consistency is like
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02-04-2017, 08:31 PM
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Usually they chamfer the crown but your barrel is designed with a recessed crown so the end of the rifling is sharp. Any machining irregularities should work themselves out with some use. The only time you have to worry is if the gun has a hard time hitting anything. In that case it is beyond just a break in issue and will need some attention from the factory.
Now that you have a 44 and the bug, it's time to think about loading your own.
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02-04-2017, 09:07 PM
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IMO that isn't ICM rifling, the transitions between the lands and grooves aren't radiused which has been typical for the ECM process until very very recently. I would bet that if you took a dental probe and dragged it forward in the "missing" grooves you would find that there is a burr in those areas caused by a dull cutter when that recessed crown was done. Someone who is very careful could cut that burr level with the rifling by using some care, good lighting, and a brand new exacto knife blade for each groove. Yeah, I did mean using 3 to 5 brand spanking new blade. Stainless will cut fairly easily with a brand new blade but the Chromium content causes edges to wear very rapidly.
Another option is to simply keep shooting jacketed ammo until the burrs break free. Downside to that option is the fracturing of the burrs will cause some tiny chipping but in a handgun I really don't think that would have a noticeable effect on accuracy.
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02-04-2017, 09:20 PM
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I would send that baby back to the company and ask for a new barrel.
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02-04-2017, 09:37 PM
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Looks can be deceiving--sometimes what looks ***rrible' can shoot great, and vice-versa. Make sure you know how it shoots, then decide.
Edit: "h-o-r-r-i-b-l-e" is bad word...
Last edited by Steve912; 02-04-2017 at 09:38 PM.
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02-04-2017, 10:33 PM
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Thank you for all the replies, and to the Leo out their thank you for what you do in this day and age. Have been looking at it and took a better picture, it really looks poor. The one upside from being a gun owner from Massachusetts is Springfield is only a couple hours away. Maybe I'll take a trip. You really can get a good idea of what I'm talking about in the picture. I used a plastic dental cleaning tool and couldn't feel any burrs like someone suggested. You can clearly see the crack on the crown at 8 o'clock
Last edited by Charlton Heston; 02-04-2017 at 10:35 PM.
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02-04-2017, 10:36 PM
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That muzzle crown is unacceptable,Period. Dave
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02-05-2017, 03:56 AM
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Crown Chamfering
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlton Heston
Have been looking at it and took a better picture, it really looks poor.
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I had a couple revolvers that I didn't especially like their crown's either & ended up buying what I needed from Brownell's to "fix" them.
.
627-5 PC, barrel crown, before
.
627-5 PC, barrel crown, after
.
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625-8 PC, barrel crown, before
.
625-8 PC, barrel crown, after
.
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686-6 TALO, barrel crown, before
.
686-6 Talo, barrel crown, after
.
.
Brownells Chamfering Tools (-01a)
.
Brownells Chamfering Tools (-02a)
.
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Last edited by BLUEDOT37; 07-07-2018 at 01:48 AM.
Reason: .re-add lost PB pics
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02-05-2017, 04:42 AM
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That crown needs to be redone. No matter how many rounds you put through it, it will never improve. You should send it back to Smith or get a crowning tool from Brownells. That's what I did and my gun now shoots nice clean round groups at 50 yards.
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02-05-2017, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlton Heston
Purchased a snub nose pc 629. Put 24 rounds through, took it home and cleaned it and to my untrained eye the crown looks sloppy. In the pictures you can see (hopefully) that at the 7 o'clock position you can see a couple metal boogers and at the 4 o'clock position there is no rifling visible on crown. As it's a performance center I'm holding it to a high standard. Should I not worry about it or should I contact smith. For an 800 dollar revolver I want it to be right, thanks a lot ps don't know why picture is sideways but when I say 7 and 4 o'clock that's assuming the gun is straight up and down
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Morning Charlton Heston
If you can live with the poor looks & it shoots OK then you
have what you bought.
I have seen a number of modern S&W revolvers with very
poorly machined (or mis-machined) crowns. It seems to
be the S&W standard poor quality speed-out-the-door beats
quality now .
Modern S&W PC guns are not much better than general
stock S&W guns (about all they do is stuff a lighter main
spring in, possibly add a poorly adjusted trigger overtravel
stop, then hand it to blind man for final inspection & out
the door it goes.
Buying a brand new modern S&W revolver is a real ****
shoot so I buy with the assumption that I will have to send
it back at LEAST ONCE & usually more than once.
Having sent a great number of new S&W's back for lack of
quality fit & finish I can give you one piece of advise on the
send back process. Be darn sure to get ALL the problems
written up on your initial call to customer service as adding
a note with the gun about issues or problems seems to get
tossed out without anyone reading it. (get it ALL on the
original phone call in)
Now the good news-- S&W customer service reps are very
friendly & usually quite receptive to addressing your concerns
so make the send back process easy & smooth. (I guess they
get a LOT of practice to hone their skills)
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02-05-2017, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlton Heston
Purchased a snub nose pc 629. Put 24 rounds through, took it home and cleaned it and to my untrained eye the crown looks sloppy.
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Did you not inspect the gun before buying it? If the crown looks sloppy after only 24 rounds, it probably looked sloppy when brand new.
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02-05-2017, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhbaxter
That muzzle crown is unacceptable,Period. Dave
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This - As you said for what you paid it should be right.
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02-05-2017, 10:34 AM
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I would be more concerned with that little crack
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02-05-2017, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
Buying a brand new modern S&W revolver is a real --------so I buy with the assumption that I will have to send it back at LEAST ONCE & usually more than once.
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Seriously? You pony up hundreds of dollars for a gun you already believe to be defective before you even buy the thing, and you've resigned yourself to the fact that you'll have to send it back to the factory to get problems fixed? And you'll have weeks of your time wasted before you even get to shoot your new gun? This seems normal to you?
That doesn't make sense to me. If you're so convinced Smith & Wesson firearms are of such poor quality from the factory, why do you buy them? Why not buy a different brand?
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02-05-2017, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchdog
Seriously? You pony up hundreds of dollars for a gun you already believe to be defective before you even buy the thing, and you've resigned yourself to the fact that you'll have to send it back to the factory to get problems fixed? And you'll have weeks of your time wasted before you even get to shoot your new gun? This seems normal to you?
That doesn't make sense to me. If you're so convinced Smith & Wesson firearms are of such poor quality from the factory, why do you buy them? Why not buy a different brand?
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Morning Watchdog
YEP!-- that's exactly what I do. I buy the best of the lot
that I can find & go though the whole process to send it
back until S&W gets it close to what it should have been
to begin with.
That seems to be the modern gun manufacturing philosophy,
build as quick as possible & with just enough quality to
get them out the door without being sued.
It's just a fact of life in buying a modern firearm from
a conglomerate owned gun mill.
And again YEP!, I have sent new guns back before even
shooting them. That is why I usually buy ahead so I
can send them back while I'm still shooting & tuning on
the current one. (it ain't preferable but seems to be the
way the world works now)
I do buy older (usually better quality constructed S&W's)
when I can find what I want but some of the newer S&W's
hit a shooting notch for me that just wasn't made in
older models.
Would I like to buy a new modern made S&W that doesn't
need to be sent back? SURE I would, but in todays gun
producing world that isn't always possible.
I guess it depends on a shooters acceptance of poor quality.
Some shooters will accept poorer quality work & go about
life with a smile & general acceptance. I won't, so I get the
problems addressed.
As a rule it works out (eventually) so I end up with a modern
revolver that I can live with & it seems to work out for S&W
as they seem to be able to sell about anything that slithers
out the door (seems to be a win/win)
It might sound like I'm complaining but I'm really not as S&W
has a very good customer support system & eventually gets
most of my issues repaired to my satisfaction so I just see it
as part of buying a modern mass produced
firearm ( I just have to keep one gun ahead of needing it so
there is time to get it corrected to my liking).
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02-05-2017, 11:39 AM
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Would not worry too much about the burrs on the grooves but that crack on one of the lands would bother me enough to send the gun back. But do not expect a perfect looking crown when you get it back.
When I bought my M69 a couple of years ago I was disappointed in the crown. At first glance it looked like there were some burrs that might affect accuracy. But on closer inspection the burrs were better described as flash or overrun and did not actually bend into the bore in a way they would catch on a bullet. The gun shot fine. Better than fine actually, that gun has always shot great.
A few months ago I sent the gun back to have a rear sight with a shorter blade installed to correct the gun shooting high with heavy magnum loads under warranty. When I sent it in I mentioned I was unhappy with the crown and they cut a new one. It looks better but they somehow left a couple of small burrs which once again do not bend into the bore. I have not had the gun on a rest since I got it back but judging from what I have seen shooting offhand once again the gun shoots fine. If I had to do it again I would have not mentioned the crown.
BTW, when you take closeups like these all guns look like they were machined with a chainsaw. Sometimes it is best not to look to closely.
As my M69 originally came from the factory:
While I used "burr" earlier in this post "overrun" or "flash" would be more accurate. Looks bad to the naked eye but has no negative effect on accuracy.
After S&W recrowned the gun:
Looks better but there are a couple of burrs. Not sure how that happened with a cutting tool but I suspect the burrs folded into the bore while the new crown was being cut and got blown out when the gun was test fired at S&W. Once again they do not look like they will affect accuracy.
For reference this my 25 year old 610 and is what I think a crown should look like:
And this is what the crown on a Ruger GP100 in 22LR looks like:
Not as deep as I would like but pretty good.
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02-05-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlton Heston
Thank you for all the replies, and to the Leo out their thank you for what you do in this day and age. Have been looking at it and took a better picture, it really looks poor. The one upside from being a gun owner from Massachusetts is Springfield is only a couple hours away. Maybe I'll take a trip. You really can get a good idea of what I'm talking about in the picture. I used a plastic dental cleaning tool and couldn't feel any burrs like someone suggested. You can clearly see the crack on the crown at 8 o'clock
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The crown doesn't look that bad. There's a chance the gun may shoot the same after. The crown on my 929 was ugly as hell- but shot extremely accurate.
If you notice, it looks like it has almost the same tooling mark on the face. Kind of a smudge. I shot it like this for more than 2k rounds and it was fine.
Then I got the Brownell muzzle crown cutter. Did some work. Cosmetically : it looks nicer. It showed no signs of accuracy improvements.
Dirty pictures. I was cleaning it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlton Heston
Thank you for all the replies, and to the Leo out their thank you for what you do in this day and age. Have been looking at it and took a better picture, it really looks poor. The one upside from being a gun owner from Massachusetts is Springfield is only a couple hours away. Maybe I'll take a trip. You really can get a good idea of what I'm talking about in the picture. I used a plastic dental cleaning tool and couldn't feel any burrs like someone suggested. You can clearly see the crack on the crown at 8 o'clock
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02-05-2017, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlton Heston
Thanks, 2k rounds, yikes! At 40 bucks a box with tax that's gonna leave an empty wallet and sore hand that's for sure. Maybe I'll try shooting from a supported position and see how the accuracy consistency is like
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Send me your gun and I'll gladly put the 2K rounds in it and send it back.After all,what are friends for?
Qc
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02-05-2017, 08:26 PM
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Thanks for the feedback and the good pictures and craftsmanship. As I don't fancy myself a machinist I will contact smith and Wesson. All the best
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02-06-2017, 09:35 PM
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Read the thread again, a lot of helpful information and it's very much appreciated. To answer one users question, I bought the firearm from osage county guns off gunbroker. So I paid a few bucks less than what their store front wanted for it. Maybe it's like getting lumber delivered from Home Depot, you end up with a bunch of boards that are unusable because you bought sight unseen. Never occurred to me to inspect it carefully enough to check the crown. Live and learn. I'll update if I remember when it's taken care of. Take care all
Last edited by Charlton Heston; 02-06-2017 at 09:40 PM.
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02-07-2017, 02:22 AM
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Don't know if it's me or my eyes, but doesn't the rifling look deeper of the left hand side in the pic versus the right hand side. Frank
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02-12-2017, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank46
Don't know if it's me or my eyes, but doesn't the rifling look deeper of the left hand side in the pic versus the right hand side. Frank
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Sure does, it's not the picture. I took many to show the crown and the pic I used represented it the best. They sent me a call tag and it was dropped of today. They'll get it Tuesday the latest. Will see what happens
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02-12-2017, 08:48 PM
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Man, some of you guys better not ever look at any other manufacturers. $800 for a new all-steel gun these days...if it shoots straight, has no glaring cosmetic blemishes, and the trigger doesn't suck, what more do you want?
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02-13-2017, 02:49 AM
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Working for Kenny Jarrett awhile back in the 90s taught
the perfect Crown was 11 degrees on his barrels.
Seems most in the custom barrel business use the
11 degree taper too.. l know bench rest barrels are a bit
different from a 4'' duty gun, but l have seen a few PPC
guns... Principle is similar
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02-13-2017, 02:57 AM
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B T W---The average life expectancy for a good Match Barrel is
only about 2 or 3 MINUTES!!!!
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02-21-2017, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw282
B T W---The average life expectancy for a good Match Barrel is
only about 2 or 3 MINUTES!!!!
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---I thought that was for a 2LT in Vietnam?!?
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02-22-2017, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw282
B T W---The average life expectancy for a good Match Barrel is
only about 2 or 3 MINUTES!!!!
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Sorry, but I'm not buying that, unless you are talking about 2 or 3 minutes of sustained rapid fire.
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So many S&W's, so few funds!!
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03-29-2017, 01:03 AM
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I spoke with a customer service rep after calling as they've had it for over a month. Nice guy, apparently they replaced the barrel and will be shipping it out this week supposedly. Hopefully FedEx won't driver release it to my closed work on a Saturday like they did with my sub2k. I'll enclose pics when I get it
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03-29-2017, 08:18 AM
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It's good you sent it back in.
I bought a new 627-5 in Dec and didn't take the time to look at the crown. Once I got it home, here's what I saw:
Yup...crown was total ****. I could have taken it out and shot it, but figuring I had just dropped nearly $1000 on the thing, I couldn't let it slide.
I sent it back in to S&W, a month later I got it back with a fixed crown. I need to take a followup pic for topics just like this.
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03-29-2017, 10:01 AM
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I know it's a PITA but we need to send every sub-par gun back to S&W.
Make them pay the freight and time to repair their sloppy work.
If they continue to skate while sending out unfinished guns they'll have no incentive to improve their quality.
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