I have a S&W model 25-2 revolver. This revolver operates great with 45 Auto-Rim and unclipped 45 ACP cartridges. The ammo I am shooting is mixed brass loaded with 200 gr. cast bullets and 5.0 gr. of Bullseye. This ammo works well in my Ruger Blackhawk and my M1911 pistol.

When the 45 ACP ammo is fired in moon clips the primers back out slightly and rub against the breach face of the frame. I can not thumb cock this revolver after firing two or three rounds of the clip.

Has anybody experienced this? What can be done to prevent this problem? Am I doing something wrong here?

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DRB #2276

How many moonclips are you testing with? How old are they? Are they bent? What manufacturer? Is your cylinder clean? This are my questions haha

This has occurred with ten new moon clips. The loaded moon clips rotate smoothly when the revolver is cocked and de-cocked without firing.

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DRB #2276

Your load is too mild and is causing the primers to back out.I am surprised they work in the Ruger.

Milton, can you recommend a minimum load for 200 gr cast bullets? I have Alliant Bullseye, Unique, and Winchester 231 powders.

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DRB #2276

Rugers sit the chambers looser......

This...what you describe happened to me.

I switched to 230 gr, I think 1.275" ? Gotta check. It was the loads. I noticed they were somewhat difficult to load. And I fired twice and jammed the cylinder.

It's the bullets. Not the load

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1.250" on the 230gr. RN.

1.190" on the 200gr. Flat point.

Smiths chambers are tight.

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My "mild" target load with a 200 gr lead cast SWC is 4.3 gr. 231. It functions fine in my 25-2 as well as a couple 1911's (with a 12-16 lb recoil spring). It is my accuracy load, but the SWC profile is a pain in the A** to load with moon clips. RN or Truncated Cone work much better.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

DwayneV,

You said that reload shoots fine in the 25-2 individually, without moon-clips? And the moon-clips are "new"?

Doesn't sound like it's the reload but more possibly the moon-clips?

What thickness are they? The S&W "TK's" run .040"

PS: Your reload should be ~13K CUP, according to Lyman's. That's not all that light (18K CUP max); they list way lighter pressure starting loads. I've shot that load without issue before too.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I did not read your post closely enough and calculated the pressure with your load using 45 Auto Rim brass which gives a pressure of about 8000 PSI.Using 45 ACP brass with your load the pressure is increased to about 12000 PSI which should not give you the problems you are having.
If the load works in your 1911 I would see if I could get some more moon clips and see what happens.
Can you try some half moon clips and see what happens?It almost sounds like the moon clips are causing some sort of head space problem.

What do primers backing out have to do with moon clips?

When primers backing out are not the result of excessive pressure, i would next suspect loose primer pockets. You should probably feel this when seating them, if you are hand-seating them. How about some newer brass?

I presume that you are checking the moon clips in the revolver to assure that they they allow free rotation of the cylinder (meaning that they aren't bent) BEFORE any cartridges are fired. This should be done before you ever go to the range, ordinarily right after loading the cartridges into the clips.

BTW, my ancient Speer manual lists four grains of BE as max for a 200gr lead bullet in .45ACP.

Also, they have a thread going on in the gunsmithing forum about this kind of issue with a 25. The OP found that his hammer nose bushing is recessed and letting the primers back out of the case and locking up the cylinder. I think his happened with or without moon clips though. But it's still something you should look at, IMO.

I have been giving the problem some more thought. It seems to be more of a moon clip issue than a revolver or ammo issue.

The model 25-2 is in excellent condition. There is no looseness of cylinder end shake or forcing cone gap. The frame firing bushing is not recessed. It is flush with the frame breach face.

The Lyman 48th handbook lists a starting load of 4.9 gr. and a maximum of 6.0 gr. of Bullseye with a 200 gr. cast bullet. My 5.0 gr. Bullseye load should not produce excessive pressure. Most of these loads are with new Starline brass and gave the same trouble Fed, Win, and Rem brass. None have loose primer pockets. I am using Winchester large pistol primers.

The moon clips are new and are 0.045” thick. The loaded clips freely rotate as the revolver is cocked and de-cocked.

After the first shot there is a slight drag as the hammer is cocked. Second shot, more drag. Third shot, revolver is jammed.

I took another look at the fired cases. I clipped six fired cases for the picture. The primers appear to have bulged around the firing pin rather than backing out of the primer pocket. A precision straight edge rocks across the primer. I pressed some of these cases with fired and bulged primers with my priming tool there is no movement.

So, what is going on here? When an unclipped cartridge is fired the pressure forces the case head to the breach face of the frame. If the firing pin bushing is not recessed and the firing pin hole diameter is not excessive the primer is fully supported. There can be no primer bulging or backing out. These unclipped cartridges revolve and fire as they should. I am suspecting that the clipped cartridges are being held forward by each other so there are not pressed against the breach face of the frame.

Thank you for your ideas and suggestions. This is my first moon clip revolver and I am not ready to give up on it. Does anybody have any actual experience with this problem?

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DRB #2276

Dwayne:

What's your OAL on those rounds?

I had the same problem, I said. It was the rounds. Not the clips. Not the gun. I would fire 2 -3 shots and then lock up the cylinder. One time making it real hard to open.

I had to recrimp my 200gr shorter for them to work. But finally went back to my 230gr RN. Gave up on 200gr. For now. As I've standardized the caliber to shoot my 1911s.

Try other ammo if you don't believe me.

Hope it works out

Lou.

P.s. just realized something. If the 200 gr doesn't grab enough lip, it will work itself out, pushing the clip, jamming the cylinder. And that would make sense on what I'm trying to say. Think about it. And that would also explain why my 230gr don't move. They grab more. Go in to the cartridge more. Not enough crimp will push a 200 out on recoil. It would explain why your cylinder turns and then it doesn't.

And before anybody mentions it. There's a small ridge inside the cylinder chambers that I know didn't let a set of 200s sit just right. I know it hits something in there. At least that was my observation. And I think the rounds that time were a little tall.
Who knows maybe my chambers are dirty.

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Check " bummed about my 929" post #10.

That guy knows a thing or two.

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I mainly shoot 45ARs. The 45ACPs are shot unclipped & occasionally with Rimz polymer moonclips. However, I do have an assortment of metal moonclip, some brand new & some very old, that include third-moon (2-shot) clips, half-moon (3 shot) clip & full moonclips. They range from .036" to .041". All TK's are .040".

I think your suspicion is worth looking closer at. Those slightly thicker (going by my clips) moonclips along with the lighter loads may not be allowing the brass to go fully rearward (like they are doing when unclipped) to completely reseat/reset the primers in the pockets.

Try some different (thinner) moonclips to see if it fixes it. If your commited to keeping those .045" (what brand are they?) load a few heavier load just for laughs & giggles. You already know they work fine individually with the light load.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

I checked my ammunition with a Wilson cartridge gauge. It all gauges correctly.

I re-checked my moon clips. The ones I used recently were purchased in a 100-piece lot on eBay. They are new and oily. The thickness varies from 0.041” to 0.044”. I have some new Ranch Products moon clips. They measure 0.038” to 0.042”. I have not yet used the Ranch Products clips. I will try them next. Maybe the thicker clips are the problem.

This is a used S&W model 25-2 that I purchase through Gunbroker.com last month. The extractor is good and the underneath side is clean. The mainspring appears to be of proper strength and tension. There have been no light hammer strikes or miss-fires. The cylinder and yoke lock up smooth and tight. There does not appear to be any yoke misalignment that I can tell. I do not have a crane/yoke alignment tool. They are $46.06 from Brownell’s. Do you think I might need one here?

I am running out of things to check until I shoot it again. This is a very nice revolver and I do not want to give up on it. I will shoot it again Saturday with the Ranch Products clips and some factory ammo. I will post my results. Thanks again for taking time to post your suggestions.

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DRB #2276

This is kind of odd. I really like 45acp in moon clips and have not had any problems except a rare bent clip before I used better tools to load and unload clips. That number does seaam thick. I think mine measure .035.

Some one else had a problem 25-2 and he figured out his firing pin bushing was below flush in his recoil shield. Check that.

The firing pin bushing is flush with the recoil shield.

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DRB #2276

For my 25-2 I don't use moon clips. Though I do with the 625-4. I use reloads 200 grain semi wads with 4 grains of bullseye for the 25-2. No problems. With moon clips and the 625, I only use factory 230 grain FMJ ammo. I tend to agree with Milton above. It's easy to make rounds work even if the primers are not completely seated all the way. I wonder if your reloads fall into that category, the primers not completely seated. If you use something like an RCBS primer seater, one can really completely seat primers. That may do it for you. I only bring this up because I loaded many rounds and I know (now) that there were times when the primer wasn't completely seated. This really shows up in rifle cartridge performance.

Measure the overall length of your cartridges then fire three rounds and remove the clipped rounds and measure the length of the remaining three rounds to see if your bullets are unseating due to recoil.

DwayneV,

I can't see anything wrong with your position so far, but if it is correct, I'm wondering why we don't have a lot of people with the same problem.

Is there any chance that your gun has excessive headspace which is not an issue with single cartridges but is when the clipful of cartridges is holding the fired one in place?

I guess you could mike a case or two (.898"), and then measure between the chambered case and the recoil shield. Not sure what the space is supposed to be, but probably somebody here knows.

??

I think I have identified the problem. I unloaded a fired clip assembly that was not rotating freely and chambered the fired cases without the clip. These cases with the bulged primers rotated freely. I then loaded the same cases in a Ranch Products clip. The loaded Ranch Products clip rotates freely.

It has to be this batch of 100-piece moon clips I got such a good deal on from eBay.

Saturday, I will load and shoot with some Ranch Products clips to confirm everything and report the results here. I think all will be good.

I never expected this. Moon clips are moon clips, right? Wrong! Thanks for all of your support and suggestions. Does anybody need some extra-thick 45 ACP moon Clips? I’ll make you a good deal.

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DRB #2276

DwayneV, you can always sit down with those out-sized moon clips and an Arkansas stone while watching TV and thin them down by rubbing them on it. Throw a little oil on the stone and rub away while watching the tube and check them periodically against the good ones you have. Heck you don't have anything to lose by trying.

Moon clips come in several thicknesses, from 0.038" to 0.048". The most common are 0.038" and 0.041"

You should determine which thickness is compatible with the headspace of your revolver.

If you are using military brass (or range brass), the pockets may be loose because someone reamed them incorrectly. I use a Dillon Super Swager. If the pockets are tight, the swagger will resize them without removing metal. If okay or too loose, the swagger will not make them worse, and you can feel the tightness in the lever. A reamer will always remove metal, even if not needed.

Oversized fire holes will cause primers to back out. Again, this might be caused by improper case preparation. I bought a bunch of .45 Colt cases one time, marked for use as blanks. The fire hole was nearly twice the diameter of the correct brass.

Did not know moon clips could be such a science (or are they an "art"?). I bought a pack of 100 from Ranch Products when first produced in the early 80s and have not looked back.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

Good news. Everything works fine as long as the moon clips are no thicker than 0.036 to 0.038”. The Ranch Products clips work great. I will be getting some more of those. The thicker clips are unusable in this revolver.

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DRB #2276