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Old 03-20-2017, 12:29 AM
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00Buck2 00Buck2 is offline
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I was cleaning out some 38 special ammo today. I had a few extra laying around about 80 or so rounds. It was a nice day I decided to shoot them and salvage the casings for future reloading. These were all new factory ammo left over from partial boxes, none over 25 years old. They were a mix of 158g LNR, 158g LHP and 125 SJHP.

Just before the squib round there is a "pop" noise. This is a small stick or other debris hitting the tin roof of our shooting house.

It was just by luck that I caught it on film so I thought I would share, here is the link to the video.

The bullet came out easily with a brass rod and small hammer, no harm done.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:56 AM
Birdgun Birdgun is offline
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00Buck2,

Ya done good catching that squib. I'm in Cowboy Action Shooting and from time to time a shooter will have a squib. You should hear the shouts from the other posse members when a squib occurs. Generally, the Timer Operator (TO) will stop the shooter. So far I've not seen a mishap beyond the squib. But I know mishaps do happen, which can sure ruin a good gun, or worse, injure someone. Glad to see you had nothing more than a concerning moment; that you properly corrected.

Thanks for the excellent video and photos.

God bless,
Birdgun
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:56 AM
k22fan k22fan is offline
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That's a well timed Model 15. I could hear the cylinder lock up long before each double action hammer fall. Nice bluing too.

While the factories were running new employees on double shifts and could still not meet the demand for .22 LR cartridges I had some terrible bulk packs from the same manufacturer that had been my favorite so I'm not surprised that a bad factory cartridge slipped out into the world. I've had few over the decades. I have a big name brand factory .45 ACP cartridge that has no extractor groove. I could fire it in a revolver without using a moon clip but I prefer to leave it in my oddities box.

With a warning added to delay opening the action that would make a good training video for hunter's safety or entry level handgun classes. While hangfires with modern cartridges are rare I've seen a few. More importantly, you knew how to handle a squib.

Last edited by k22fan; 03-20-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:33 AM
Tyrod Tyrod is online now
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5 years ago, after tuning the action on my new 642, I was testing the reliability of the revolver by shooting whole boxes of various brands of ammo. 500 rounds in total. About half way through the test I was shooting brand new Sellier & Bellot 125gr JHP. 25 rounds into that box, I couldn't open the cylinder. I didn't spend too much time on it at the range, I just went on shooting other guns. After I got home, I could see a bullet was lodged in the cylinder & the forcing cone. Looking down the bore, I could see nearly the entire lead core had shot out leaving the jacket and a bit of lead behind. I made a feeble attempt to drive the jacket back into the cylinder, but I could see the jacket was distorting.

I called S&W. They issued a shipping label. 3 weeks later I got my revolver back, seemingly no worse for wear or charge. Kudos to S&W for fixing someone elses screwup.

The really amazing part of this post is that I started 4 sentences with a number.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:46 AM
BB57 BB57 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k22fan View Post
That's a well timed Model 15. I could hear the cylinder lock up long before each double action hammer fall. Nice bluing too.

While the factories were running new employees on double shifts and could still not meet the demand for .22 LR cartridges I had some terrible bulk packs from the same manufacturer that had been my favorite so I'm not surprised that a bad factory cartridge slipped out into the world. I've had few over the decades. I have a big name brand factory .45 ACP cartridge that has no extractor groove. I could fire it in a revolver without using a moon clip but I prefer to leave it in my oddities box.

With a warning added to delay opening the action that would make a good training video for hunter's safety or entry level handgun classes. While hangfires with modern cartridges are rare I've seen a few. More importantly, you knew how to handle a squib.
I don't think a warning to delay opening the action is needed in this case. A squib is decidedly different than a hang fire. With the squib you know it went bang, it's just an under powered or primer only bang.

It's worth mentioning though that unburnt and/or partially burnt powder is usually evident with a squib load, and is clear visual cue that something is amiss and that the round may still be in the barrel.

The biggest threat with squibs is in low recoiling cartridge and firearm combinations like the .22 LR in a K frame revolver, where the shooter may not note the lack of recoil, and must note the lack of report that would be made by a full powered round.

Cowboy action shooting doubles down on this threat if the shooter is using 158 gr .38 Special cowboy loads that are near the velocity floor of 400 fps (power factor of 63) in a fairly hefty SA revolver. Here the time pressure and low recoil can combine to encourage the shooter to cock and fire again before fully considering what just didn't happen.

----

As an aside, it's the lesser of the two reasons that I think SASS's 400 fps velocity floor and 60 power factor floor are bad ideas for what is supposed to be a "practical" shooting sport.

My biggest objection is that the the black powder era .38-40 used a 180 gr bullet at 975 fps. That would be a power factor of 175 in an SASS match. That .38-40 black powder cartridge performance is identical to what you have in a modern .40 S&W, and that's not a surprise as stopping people who are trying to kill you wasn't any easier then than it is now.

The .38-40 was already a "light' load as the black powder era .44-40 used either a 200 gr bullet at 1245 fps (power factor of 249) or a 217 gr bullet at 1,190 fps (power factor of 258). The .45 Colt used either a 255 gr bullet at 950 fps (power factor of 242), or a 230 gr bullet at 1050 fps (power factor of 242), with 40 grains of BP. The US Army preferred load was a 255 gr bullet at 790 fps driven by 30 grains of BP (power factor of 201) which was in fact a light load designed for easier training of troops.

In that regard, a more realistic power factor floor is 175, not 60, if we're concerned about authentic shooting - as opposed to the excessive and obsessive interest in period correct clothing leather soled boots, etc.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB57 View Post
...As an aside, it's the lesser of the two reasons that I think SASS's 400 fps velocity floor and 60 power factor floor are bad ideas for what is supposed to be a "practical" shooting sport.

My biggest objection is that the the black powder era .38-40 used a 180 gr bullet at 975 fps. That would be a power factor of 175 in an SASS match. That .38-40 black powder cartridge performance is identical to what you have in a modern .40 S&W, and that's not a surprise as stopping people who are trying to kill you wasn't any easier then than it is now.

The .38-40 was already a "light' load as the black powder era .44-40 used either a 200 gr bullet at 1245 fps (power factor of 249) or a 217 gr bullet at 1,190 fps (power factor of 258). The .45 Colt used either a 255 gr bullet at 950 fps (power factor of 242), or a 230 gr bullet at 1050 fps (power factor of 242), with 40 grains of BP. The US Army preferred load was a 255 gr bullet at 790 fps driven by 30 grains of BP (power factor of 201) which was in fact a light load designed for easier training of troops.

In that regard, a more realistic power factor floor is 175, not 60, if we're concerned about authentic shooting - as opposed to the excessive and obsessive interest in period correct clothing leather soled boots, etc.
Yes, SASS acceptable power factor can be achieved by factory .32 S&W ammo...85 grain bullet and 9 grains of 3F. By comparison .32 ACP is a high pressure powerhouse! The .32 S&W was popular and did prove deadly in the 1880's but mostly due to infection and/or ineptitude on the part of doctors.
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Old 03-20-2017, 03:32 PM
mainegrw mainegrw is offline
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You could have done worse for sure: Back when I first started to load my own ammo, I had a squib incident that almost made me give up reloading altogether. At the time, I thought it would be safer to load my rounds close to the minimum powder charge, as to avoid the possibility of over charging the round. This turned out to be problematic on one occasion while shooting with a friend, as I found a box of 38 special I had loaded were too under powered for safe shooting, marked the box, and set aside to take home and unload. Mind you, I tested the ammo in a Taurus 85 snub nose I had, and of the two or three rounds fired, each was able to leave the barrel, but it was concerningly light. My friend asked if he could shoot the Ruger Blackhawk I had also brought to range, I allowed it, and gave him a box factory loaded ammo that I had also brought with me. Somehow during shooting, while I had stepped out of the range briefly, he mistook the bad box of ammo for the good and commenced firing with it. The first round was a squib, which he apparently did not notice, and proceeded to stack not just one, not two, but six rounds into the barrel of the gun. Thankfully, the batch of ammo was so under powered, that it did not cause a catastrophic failure of the gun, nor any real damage at all, just alot of hard work to fix it, and alot of heartache. There were several lessons learned here, the first being that I should not load ammo at or near the minimum loading, instead I start closer to the maximum (or just a little above the median for magnum loads), and work backwards if necessary. Along with that, I learned not to leave bad ammo anywhere accessible, now opting to take it to my car, and not put it in my range bag, or leave it on the bench, clearly marked or not. Since this incident, I have not had another loading problem, and take great care in my powder measuring, to ensure both consistency and safety. Unfortunately, problems can, and do happen, and we do our best to mitigate as many factors as we can.

Anyway, I am glad that you were able to clear your squib with ease, and without damage to the gun or yourself.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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Old 03-22-2017, 12:09 PM
kaaskop49 kaaskop49 is offline
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Am I glad you're OK! Brings to mind the incident with a 500 round box of beautiful-looking .38 service ammo in brand new brass from a NW bulk loader now out of business, I understand. From a 4" Model 64, bullets striking the silhouette sideways at 3 yards, and 2 squibs with the bullet protruding from(stuck in) the muzzle. Range personnel angry with me as though I had loaded this ammo myself, but they were able to tap out the bullets with a brass rod.

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