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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 03-24-2017, 12:27 PM
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Why the FBI transitioned to the 10MM 1076 Auto in ~ 1990 is attributed to several reasons; the 1986 Miami shootout being principal with Ben Grogan and Jerry Dove, the SAs killed in that incident being, by many accounts, "outgunned" and under equipped with this revolver. I have 3 Model 13s; (2) 13-2s and (1) 13-3 that all letter as being shipped during a 15 month period to the FBI Academy at Quantico, VA between Dec,1980, and Nov,1981. The picture with those three guns as acquired has been posted a few times here on the forum when the subject of Model 13s or FBI related firearms was being discussed. The one pictured below is actually my primary CCW and it will do everything I need it to if required. These are really underrated utilitarian S&W revolvers that will drive a tack on the target range. The FBI carried them for over 10 years until the .40 1076 was brought in as a replacement. That didn't last long did it? When the 1076 was adopted, the FBI procured Model 13s were recalled and I have it on good authority wound up being destroyed and buried in a pit at Quantico. Obviously some found their way to the outside world and I feel fortunate to have acquired three of them. All are different with one being pinned and recessed, one being pinned and not recessed and the third being neither pinned nor recessed. The one in this post is the earliest example I have and it is the pinned/recessed example. Be sure to scan the cover page of the factory letter on this gun as it gives insight to the evolution of the Model 13 and also identifies a couple of revolvers in the 10-6 Model category that hard core collectors of S&W K frame M&Ps might want to turn their attention to looking for

Enjoy
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:39 PM
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Hey Chuck I remember those they look much better nowadays .
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:46 PM
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I would carry one of those in a heartbeat. They are SWEET!!!
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Old 03-24-2017, 12:51 PM
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Hey Chuck I remember those they look much better nowadays .
Ladder13, I know you do and again a big thanks for pointing me in their direction.
Chuck
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:35 PM
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I'd have to agree, the 3" 13 is an outstanding revolver.

I have a 3" 65-5 and a 4" 13 as well, but I prefer the 3" 13 overall.

The blue is deep and the quality is high.

I'd love to know who made these grips. They came with mine and appear to be of new manufacture.

I added the BK.



Anybody know who made these?
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:12 PM
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I fully agree that the S&W Model 13 & 65 makes ideal SD revolvers. The FBI agents in Miami were up against a hardened killer armed with a Ruger Mini-14. Hopefully, the average CCW will probably never face such a formidable weapon. The gun battle was lost before the first shot was fired. Platt out-performed the FBI on mindset, tactics, weapon and marksmanship.

One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.
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Old 03-24-2017, 04:23 PM
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I stumbled across a 4" model 13 awhile back. Have shot it little but was surprised how well it shot. I like the fixed sight guns. The 13 fits in nicely with my Model 58 and a few 1917s and M&Ps..

Not sure if I'd prefer the 3" over the 4" since I don't carry anything concealed. I hike a lot and the 13 might find duty in a field holster going along for a walk in the woods...

Love that trio you have. They just may be the most perfect of utilitarian revolvers.
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Old 03-24-2017, 05:00 PM
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Federali brings up a good point about us average CCW types and what is enough caliber/rounds we actually need. From a previous life, I have always felt the more of each the better. These days though, who knows really who the bad folks actually are? I think about this every morning when I send my own Fed bride off with just a Glock to do whatever it is she really does.
Here's a link to the FBI final report on the Miami Shootout for any interested.
Chuck

https://vault.fbi.gov/FBI%20Miami%20...1%20of%2011%20
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Old 03-24-2017, 05:50 PM
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Here are my three 3" M13s; a dash 2 (middle), 3, and 4. I also have a 3" M10 that would fit in nicely but unfortunately not photographed.
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Old 03-24-2017, 06:07 PM
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Here's the 13-3 and -4 with the FBI loads.

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Old 03-24-2017, 06:35 PM
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As to the disposition of the Bureau's Model 13s, my buddy, a retired FBI supervisory Special Agent, told me that upon his retirement, he was offered the opportunity to buy his service revolver. However, he turned it down as he felt the $ the Bureau wanted was excessive. He has never said what that price was. This was about 2000-2001.

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Old 03-24-2017, 09:39 PM
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That was a great read and awesome photos to boot, thank you!

Very cool to know about those 10-6 in .357 being the first 13's, didn't know that. Would be nice to land one of those!
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:53 PM
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Sorry to correct the OP and not to detract from his post about these fine revovlers, but Special Agents Grogan & Dove were SWAT agents and were armed with S&W 9mm auto pistols (59-series?) when they were killed. Other agents did use revolvers and the gunfight ended with a courageous and wounded agent firing his revolver into the suspect vehicle from close range.
May Agents Grogan & Dove rest in peace. They died heroically protecting the citizens of Miami from these two psycho killers.

F, Hinkle, deputy (ret)
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gruntdeputy View Post
Sorry to correct the OP and not to detract from his post about these fine revovlers, but Special Agents Grogan & Dove were SWAT agents and were armed with S&W 9mm auto pistols (59-series?) when they were killed. Other agents did use revolvers and the gunfight ended with a courageous and wounded agent firing his revolver into the suspect vehicle from close range.
May Agents Grogan & Dove rest in peace. They died heroically protecting the citizens of Miami from these two psycho killers.

F, Hinkle, deputy (ret)
SDMO/SDSD
gruntdeputy: thanks for your input.
Here are the FBI Special Agents who participated in the Miami incident and the weapons they carried. An FBI agent may be assigned to an FBI SWAT team as an incidental duty, but their primary duty is always Special Agent.

Richard Manauzzi: lost control of weapon in the initial vehicle collision, no shots fired. Minor wounds from shotgun pellets.[8]
Gordon McNeill: Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357 Magnum revolver, six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck.
Edmundo Mireles: Remington 870 12-gauge shotgun, five rounds 00 buckshot fired, .357 Magnum revolver, Smith & Wesson Model 686 (Not FBI issue, but personally owned .357's and .38's could be approved for carry by supervisors, same applies with McNeil's Model 19), six rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia: S&W (model unknown, likely a Model 13, as it was an issued weapon at the time) .357 Magnum revolver, 12 rounds .38 Special +P fired. Wounded by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon: Smith & Wesson Model 36 .38 Special revolver, five rounds .38 Special +P fired. Seriously wounded by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, nine rounds fired. Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Jerry Dove: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 20+ rounds fired. Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Ronald Risner: Smith & Wesson Model 459 9mm pistol, 14 rounds fired, S&W Model 60 .38 Special revolver, one round .38 Special +P fired. Not wounded.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:00 AM
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Yep. Grogan and Dove were SWAT certified and carried S&W 459's. Manauzzi supposedly had his revolver under his leg during the pursuit for easier access, and when he crashed his car, it got lost under the seat. I would bet he never got over not engaging these two maniacs and maybe ending the fight before grogan and dove were killed.

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Old 03-25-2017, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
I fully agree that the S&W Model 13 & 65 makes ideal SD revolvers. The FBI agents in Miami were up against a hardened killer armed with a Ruger Mini-14. Hopefully, the average CCW will probably never face such a formidable weapon. The gun battle was lost before the first shot was fired. Platt out-performed the FBI on mindset, tactics, weapon and marksmanship.

One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.
A few other little known facts: The agents had shotguns, but couldn't use them because they were in the backseat along with theirs vests. And it wasn't the M-13 that failed (Platt was killed by a .38 Special FBI load). The 9mm Silvertip was the alleged failure.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:28 PM
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Do I understand correctly ?
1. The model 10 and Model 13 share the same frame except the Model 13 has a cylinder chambered for .357 ?

2. The FBI issued .357 revolvers but the issue ammo was .38spl +P
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyj View Post
Do I understand correctly ?
1. The model 10 and Model 13 share the same frame except the Model 13 has a cylinder chambered for .357 ?

2. The FBI issued .357 revolvers but the issue ammo was .38spl +P
Answer to your first question is yes.
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Old 03-26-2017, 06:38 AM
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I too believe a revolver is all the average person needs for self defense. I owned a model 13 at one time when I was much younger. I was too stupid to realize what I had and sold it. Sigh.

People are quick to blame the FBI for lack of tactics and proper equipment. They're right. I just hope these aren't the same people who complain about the "militarization" of the police too. Can't have it both ways.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by federali View Post
I fully agree that the S&W Model 13 & 65 makes ideal SD revolvers. The FBI agents in Miami were up against a hardened killer armed with a Ruger Mini-14. Hopefully, the average CCW will probably never face such a formidable weapon. The gun battle was lost before the first shot was fired. Platt out-performed the FBI on mindset, tactics, weapon and marksmanship.

One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.
Add the often overlooked
Agent across the street hammering away with a 459.
Tagged one of the bad guys with a 9mm Silvertip.
Two metro Dade officers did not fire as when they rolled up,
Couldn't wire out who was who.
( no identifiers like raid jackets in use)

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Old 03-26-2017, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
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A few other little known facts: The agents had shotguns, but couldn't use them because they were in the backseat along with theirs vests. And it wasn't the M-13 that failed (Platt was killed by a .38 Special FBI load). The 9mm Silvertip was the alleged failure.
Report I read asserted the silvertip round received was a fatal wound "even if received near a operating room with Dr's
Standing by" bad guy was tasked focused, and pumping out blood as he moved.
I remember this as my squad was transitioning from l framed to 3rd gens at that time. Sheriff
Was ex SEAL, held meeting of firearms instructers, we were choosing dept ammo. Ended up with black talons but was a big push to continue silvertips
With this info in mind.

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Old 03-26-2017, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
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Do I understand correctly ?
1. The model 10 and Model 13 share the same frame except the Model 13 has a cylinder chambered for .357 ?

2. The FBI issued .357 revolvers but the issue ammo was .38spl +P
A friend of mine is a retired FBI agent. He said .357 was available if you wanted it but most carried .38 +P. He told me he carried 4 .38's followed by 2 .357. Said if the first 4 didn't work then he wanted the extra power.

And the model 13 and 10 had the same frame, but it was an it more than just a different cylinder. I believe the 13 received a different beat treatment.

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Old 03-27-2017, 04:02 AM
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The 3" Model 13 is one of Smiths BEST! I've got one in stainless but called the M65.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:47 AM
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One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.
Also, both Platt and Mattix were Army veterans, and Platt was a Viet Nam combat veteran and a Ranger.

Regards,

Dave
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:16 AM
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IIRC the 'standard carry load" was the SWCHP +P .38..... my Dad started carrying it after shooting with an FBI buddy..... In the mid-70s IIRC..... there were boxes of .38s marked something like "LE only" " Police Only".

Shooting them out of Dad's .357 Colt New Service.....well they were soft shooting ..... even as the as then new wiz-bang +P or +P+ "FBI-load"

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Old 03-27-2017, 04:15 PM
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Although I own a number of modern pistols, these days I mostly AIWB EDC either my 3" SP101 or Model 10 2". I never feel undergunned with these wheel guns...
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:57 PM
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Thought I would share my 13-2 3", not pinned but recessed. I have the original grips serialized to the gun but like the Elk grips with a vintage T grip adapter. Supposedly, the Bucheimer ammo pouch and ammo, 38 Special +P, came from a former agent that I bought from off Gunbroker. I'm liking it a lot.
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:43 AM
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Thought I would share my 13-2 3", not pinned but recessed. I have the original grips serialized to the gun but like the Elk grips with a vintage T grip adapter.
Sweeeet.....
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Old 03-28-2017, 09:54 AM
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I fully agree that the S&W Model 13 & 65 makes ideal SD revolvers. The FBI agents in Miami were up against a hardened killer armed with a Ruger Mini-14. Hopefully, the average CCW will probably never face such a formidable weapon. The gun battle was lost before the first shot was fired. Platt out-performed the FBI on mindset, tactics, weapon and marksmanship.

One little known fact regarding the Miami shootout is that Mike Platt did all the shooting. Mattix never fired a shot.
Would have to respectfully disagree with some of your assertions...

1) Matix fired one round of 12 ga. #6 birdshot into the grill of Grogan and Dove's vehicle in the opening moments of the gunfight. Matix opened the door of his vehicle and after he fired the shot was hit in the right forearm. He then pulled back into the vehicle where he was shot in the face by Supervisor Gordon McNeil.

2) Platt's "marksmanship" was poor to say the least. He fired a minimum of 42 rounds of ammo from his Mini14 and six rounds of .357 Magnum ammo from two different handguns. (He hit no one with a handgun round) His total hits with the Mini14:

1) From a distance of 8' managed to hit Gordon McNeil once in the hand out of multiple shots fired.

2) From a distance of 8' missed Gordon McNeil and hit Ed Mireles in the left forearm as he ran up behind Gordon McNeil.

3) From a distance of about 25' missed his first round at a standing Gordon McNeil but managed to hit him with the second round. Stunned by the round but survived.

4) Shot a standing Ben Grogan from about 10'. Died instantly of his wounds.

5) Shot John Hanlon in the right hand from about 60' and then shot him again as he stepped over his body. Survived his wounds.

6) Shot a kneeling Jerry Dove in the back from about 8' and then again in the back as he stepped over the body. Died after the second shot.

Platt was no marksman..he was just Army trained spray and pray...


John Hanlon also lost his primary handgun also which is why he was shooting a 5-Shot Chief. I've never been able to find out what kind of guns he or Manauizzi had....

I've studied this incident since shortly after it took place...the more questions I ask the more questions I have...


As to the Model 13...that and the 3" 65 are probably the best and simplest combat revolvers ever made...

Bob

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Old 03-28-2017, 10:10 AM
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All of the 13s you all have posted are beautiful. I was with a DOJ entity back in the early 90s and recall it was after the Clinton Admin. had taken over that AG Reno issued an internal mandate that all DOJ (not sure if it actually applied to Treasury also) entities would no longer sell or trade off obsolete or surplussed firearms. I'm not sure how many DOJ agencies actually destroyed them, however. I believe some at Quantico got converted to Simunition-only and used for training. The cylinders were sleeved and the grips were painted orange on the ones I've seen. In addition to the Sim 13s, I've seen some 65s, 2 and 3 inch 10s, and occasionally a 4 inch 19 repurposed.

The FBI required all personally acquired weapons for duty first be shipped to the Academy for Inspection so that may account for some of the factory shipping records. They may have been actual FBI purchased weapons that made it out before the Reno mandate, or they could have been personally acquired.

Nevertheless, it would be nice if the G decided to rescind the Reno mandate.


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Old 03-28-2017, 10:22 AM
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I am typing this from my office about 10 miles from Jerry Dove Drive. It runs from I-79 to the FBI facility here in WV.

I use the 1986 shootout as a part of my firearms course. I was going to add that according to the FBI report, Matix did fire at least one shot, firing a 12 gaauge shotgun, striking SA Manauzzi in the neck and back of his head.

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Old 03-28-2017, 10:35 AM
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Les... You may want to recheck that. The reports I have is that Platt fired from the front passenger seat of his vehicle with the Mini14 through the open drivers window of his car into the closed passenger window of Manauzzi vehicle as Manauzzi was trying to exit his drives door... He was hit in the back by jacket and glass fragments...(See page 20 of W. French Anderson Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight).

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Old 03-28-2017, 10:35 AM
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My Dad was an Agent and in his last few years he was issued white box Winchester and Red box Federal L E use only +P+ 90 and 110 grain ammo. He did not care for it so he used 158 grain +P Semi Jacketed SWCHP with S&W markings (actually Fiocchi). Since he was on the Pistol Team and a Senior Supervisor he could carry pretty much anything he wanted. The last 4 years or so he was carrying a M66 2 1/2" RB, a M15 4" and a Baby Chief's (which I now have) as a BUG. Once in a while he also carried a 1911, along with a few other Autos. While undercover he would carry the farthest thing a BG would ever suspect being a Fed's" gun. Sometimes weird stuff like a .380 Ortgies, a Colt M1903, Nickel plated Revolvers, etc. Anything to keep them thinking he was an Agent. Once in a while he DID have a Sub Machine Gun in the trunk (chained to the car chassis). He put in 30 years.
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Old 03-28-2017, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Les... You may want to recheck that. The reports I have is that Platt fired from the front passenger seat of his vehicle with the Mini14 through the open drivers window of his car into the closed passenger window of Manauzzi vehicle as Manauzzi was trying to exit his drives door... He was hit in the back by jacket and glass fragments...(See page 20 of W. French Anderson Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight).

Bob
Bob: Believe it or not, I have the French Anderson laying on my desk right now!! Reading it as I type this.... I see what you are referring to, but my post above was based on the initial FBI report cited and linked in post number 4 above, Page 4.

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Old 03-28-2017, 11:34 AM
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I m a fan. I carried a 3" Model 13 for my first few years in LE as a an off duty and third gun on patrol. Pick a flavor.....
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Old 03-28-2017, 01:37 PM
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Platt was no marksman..he was just Army trained spray and pray...Bob
Platt was an Army Ranger, and a combat veteran (Viet Nam). He would have been trained to "break ambush" using a high volume of suppressive fire - aka "violence of action" versus precision fire.

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Old 03-28-2017, 04:27 PM
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Platt was an Army Ranger, and a combat veteran (Viet Nam). He would have been trained to "break ambush" using a high volume of suppressive fire - aka "violence of action" versus precision fire.

Regards,

Dave
If Platt was indeed a Ranger, he was certainly trained beyond the "spray and pray" level, haven't heard that one before. I do know a little bit about Ranger training and operations, and if anything, it resulted in for those few successful graduates above the average 11B shooting skills. Just my two cents here....glad to see this thread took on a life all its' own. I thought it might.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:26 PM
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Well, I don't always, or even usually, trust Wikapedia, but here's what they have to say about these two criminals:

"Michael Lee Platt (February 3, 1954 – April 11, 1986) and William Russell Matix (June 25, 1951 – April 11, 1986) met while serving in the U.S. Army at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. Matix first served in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1969 to 1972, working as a cook in the officers' mess, and was later honorably discharged after reaching the rank of Staff Sergeant. In 1973, Matix re-enlisted in the U.S. Army and served in the military police. Matix was honorably discharged from the Army in 1976. Platt enlisted in 1972 as an infantryman and served with the U.S. Army Rangers during the Vietnam War, where he was noted for "High Combat Proficiency". Platt was honorably discharged in 1979."

I'll try to see if I can find any verification or further information. Obviously this is an important element of the equation, as training, background, and experience help bad guys as well as good guys.

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Old 04-03-2017, 10:37 AM
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I'm a little late to this thread, but I am the proud owner of a 3" Model 13-4. Its my most frequently carried revolver.
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Old 04-03-2017, 03:28 PM
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Nothing to add but thanks for the read. I enjoy my model 65, would like to pick up a 13, but the premium $ have kept my money w/ me when I've run across em.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:24 PM
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I've acquired my model 13 quite accidentally;among the crazy laws we got here in Canada,one of them states that a handgun with a 4'' barrel or less is prohibited.That means that you can't buy one exept if you already had one when the law was passed.Luckily,I had a few which gave me what they call a ''grandfather clause''.I can own or buy them but when I die,all the 12-6 guns(that's how they define the grandfather law)will have to be destroyed.
A couple of years ago,one of my acquintenance who knew I am into guns phoned me asking me if I wanted a model 13 in 4'' configuration.He told me: the cops are here asking me to give them my 4'' bbl model 13 since I haven't renewed my membership at the shooting club.They say I'm out of law.If you want it,get your butt in your car,bring along your firearm licence and come pick it up....and hurry.I'd rather let you have it than give it away to the govt.
The gun now sleeps peacefully in my saferoom.I like the little .357 a lot(even though I mainly shoot .38 SPL +P+ in it).Like the way it points,like the smooth action and looove the way it got to me!
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 29-1 View Post
When the 1076 was adopted, the FBI procured Model 13s were recalled and I have it on good authority wound up being destroyed and buried in a pit at Quantico.
My father was an agent back in the 70s-90s and once told me that his model 13 was indeed confiscated and destroyed. I understand that the Bureau felt the need to recall and replace these revolvers, but why destroy them? It makes no sense at all... unless you apply government logic.

I seem to recall him saying that many agents (himself included) would have gladly purchased their revolvers, but were not given the option.

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Old 05-15-2017, 09:00 AM
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To my agency's credit, when they transitioned from revolvers (S&W Model 66s) to semi-autos (Glock 23s), they allowed officers to purchase their issued gun for what Glock was offering in trade-in. The agency didn't lose any money, Glock didn't lose any money, and those revolvers that Glock took in trade were in turn sold to outfits like Southern Ohio, who in turn sold them them to FFLs, who sold them to individuals.

I bought both my issued 4" Model 66, and my 2 1/2". This is, in my opinion, what the FBI (and all other government agencies, whether local, county, state, or federal) should do. Taxpayer dollars are not squandered, and folks like us are made happy!!

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Old 05-16-2017, 08:41 PM
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M65-5 police trade in gun, it's now a slab sided 3" with a protected target crown XS Sights Big Dot front night sight, and CeraKoat in sniper grey and black. It is the gun I carry at my farm and in my pickup truck.



Controlled Chaos Arms in Baxter, Iowa did the work.
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Old 05-16-2017, 09:59 PM
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F224 that 65-5 is sweet. Thanks for sharing, I'm quite envious now.
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Old 05-16-2017, 10:22 PM
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F224 that 65-5 is sweet. Thanks for sharing, I'm quite envious now.
Find a round butt or standard M65, I know just the guy to do the work.
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Old 05-16-2017, 11:04 PM
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Sorry to correct the OP and not to detract from his post about these fine revovlers, but Special Agents Grogan & Dove were SWAT agents and were armed with S&W 9mm auto pistols (59-series?) when they were killed. Other agents did use revolvers and the gunfight ended with a courageous and wounded agent firing his revolver into the suspect vehicle from close range.
May Agents Grogan & Dove rest in peace. They died heroically protecting the citizens of Miami from these two psycho killers.

F, Hinkle, deputy (ret)
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:28 AM
Trooper Joe Trooper Joe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapping Twig View Post
I'd have to agree, the 3" 13 is an outstanding revolver.

I have a 3" 65-5 and a 4" 13 as well, but I prefer the 3" 13 overall.

The blue is deep and the quality is high.

I'd love to know who made these grips. They came with mine and appear to be of new manufacture.

I added the BK.



Anybody know who made these?
They look a lot like these original grips on my 1925 M&P.



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Old 05-17-2017, 08:22 AM
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Jumping on the band wagon!

My 13-3 is the perfect combination of size, balance in the hand & power. While my EDC is usually a bottom feeder, the model 13 still gets in the rotation.



This one has a good home until I kick, and hopefully longer than that.

Bob S.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:56 AM
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Default 3" Nickel Model 13

I have a 3" nickel Model 13, which I think is on the scarce side as far as the numbers made with this finish. This one sports Spegel boot grips.
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