Would not be a good day for a home invader with this 44mag Black Talon ammo. This ammo was banned for sales because of the extreme damage it inflicted(probably to help deter injury to a police officer it could be fired at or when used in mass shootings) and is now collectable.I have seen this bring over 60.00 a box online,I picked up a box several years ago at a gunshow for 25.00,makes a good package to take out the bad guy.Am sure Dirty Harry would have used it.

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The ammo was never "banned"... Winchester withdrew it from civilian sales due to "perception" by the public that it was evil and targeted at certain minorities.
They still sell it under a different name and the bullet has a different color/finish........

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.............SmithNut

Yep, still sold under Winchester Ranger T-series. I'm sure they even changed it slightly since then.

Federal has a very comparable line in the HST, however the Ranger might be a little more wicked with the way the copper peels backs and protrudes. The HST copper doesn't stick out as much, but still produces a jagged cutting edge.

Nasty stuff, I wouldn't want to meet either of them on the wrong side of the muzzle.

They are evil. Black ammo. Like a black rifle. I have a box in 9mm. I'd like to have some in 44 mag. They did get a bad rap. Evil ammo.

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No gold. Only lead. Bobby

C'mon folks, let's not perpetuate a myth.

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NRA Benefactor

The Ranger T is just the next gen of Black Talons. RA9T is one of the loads. There is a +P+ version I think.

From my Colt Defender, 3" barrel... nasty not bad.

"I'm not bad.. I just look that way" - Black Talon



and it comes in +P...

Thanks for the info,thats just what I heard,so it wasnt banned just taken off the market.I will keep this for the collection and buy some Ranger T series.

Yeah, wicked stuff. Here's what happens when you shoot at a brick wall with the stuff:

crumbling-brick-wall-25667868.jpg

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So many S&W's, so few funds!!

It'll cut your head clean off.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

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America First

...for reporting facts instead of urban legends. Black Talon came on the market during the early years of the Clinton presidency. Remember the Assault Weapon ban of 1994....ARs and Galils prices went sky-high. The gun haters were in their glory. Black Talon ammo was dubbed the "Cop Killer" bullets and the media was foaming at the mouth. Winchester caught flack from us gunnies for knuckling under. In retrospect, they were brilliant...the frenzy cooled off and Winchester introduced bullets at least as good. The 1994 mid-year elections put Republicans in control of the House and gun control off the agenda.

FYI: I shot a big old raccoon off my back deck with a 45 ACP Black Talon bullet. It kilt him OK but he was still fully identifiable as a raccoon.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Thanks for the info!This ammo is a great collectable anyway,never be anymore BT brand made , good example of a period in time.

Ths was a good example of a liberal media misinformation campaign to ban an effective, useful cartridge.


The media also tried to confuse people about Federal's Nyclad ammo, inferring it was similar to the tungsten core "cop killer" bullets of another sort...which were never shown to have penetrated vests and killed cops.


The press also tried to float a story that Nyclad bullets didn't take rifling marks, thus making them ideal for murderers who didn't want bullets traced.


And they told us that Glocks didn't show up on airport X-ray screens. All lies!

From what I've heard Winchester did get some heat over the Black Talon, and at first all they did was remove the black Lubalox coating and renamed them SXT. Some say it stood for Same Exact Thing.

Then they came out with the new and improved Ranger T.

Even the Ranger T's can be hard to find. I found one source. and scored a few boxes in 380, and 45 APC, several boxes in 9mm, and mass boxes in 40 cal. Wish they made it in 38 and 357, but Gold Dot's would probably work just as well, along with Federal HST.

It was a good bullet, good design but it was about on par with other quality hollow points of it's day.

The first shooting which brought critical media attention to Black Talon was by Gian Luigi Ferri, who used Black Talon and other ammunition to shoot 15 people at a San Francisco law office in 1993; nine of whom died (the 101 California Street shootings). Physician Boyd Stevens, the San Francisco Medical Examiner who performed the autopsies, later reported at the 1994 International Wound Ballistics Association's conference in Sacramento that the wound trauma caused by Black Talons was unremarkable and that all victims died due to penetration of a vital structure.

Some medical personnel were concerned that the sharp barb like tips could potentially cause tears in the surgical gloves and hands of the medical workers, exposing them to greater risk of infection.

The ammunition was used by the gunman of the 1993 Long Island Rail Road shooting for his Ruger P89 9×19mm pistol. In 1996 a lawsuit was subsequently filed by one of the victim's family members (McCarthy v. Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc., 916 F.Supp. 366 (S.D.N.Y., 1996)) claiming that Olin Corp. should be liable for the shooting spree based on the design, manufacture, marketing, and sale of Black Talon ammunition. The claims against Olin were dismissed because it was held that the bullets "functioned exactly as designed"

BT was completely discontinued in 2000

SXT stands for Supreme eXpansion Technology and it is a different bullet although it retains some of the BT technology

It's reported that Oscar Pistorius shot his girlfriend with Black Talons
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Thanks for that great info,learned a lot on this thread ,glad I posted!The 44mag BT seems to be the hardest to find,maybe less made than other calibers,just a guess,anyway glad I picked this up.

A less commonly cited attribute of Black Talon ammo in .45ACP is that it, like some other Winchester designs, has a very ball-shaped profile. In other words, it feeds reliably. Because of that, I consider it one of the best HP designs in .45ACP, although it is obviously not the only good one around, and reliability depends a lot on your gun, too.

Thanks!Didnt think about that aspect,better feed in a semi auto makes sense,of course in a revolver it dosent matter.Didnt know Winchester was sued over these,might be some incentive to stop even though they won the lawsuit,bad PR.Here is a comparison of a semi jacketed Rem hollow point of the day vs the Black Talon,wouldnt want to get shot with either one but the Black Tolon sure looks a lot meaner.This box came from a gunstore in Kansas.This original box is marked SXT so that puts the "same exact thing" myth to a close.

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The Black Talon ammo was actually taken very seriously by law enforcement. In the early 1990's, I became good friends with the head of the FBI here in Middle Georgia. I got to see all their gear and stuff. It was pretty neat. He told to buy any of the ammo I saw for sale to get it off the street. They were doing the same thing. As a result, I bought quite a bit of it. Good advice. Good investment. Yes, the newer Winchester loads are virtually if not identically the same.

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Dr. B

Excellent use of the British term "kilt". I always appreciate it when one of our posters shows such comprehensive understanding of proper "English". Thanks.

You are either more nervy or live out where neighbors don't mind an occasional critter ridding sound.

Back to the Black Talon ammo. I've got some in 9mm, 357, and 44 Mag. Some of our posters constantly write that better ammo is available. I'm not so sure. Dead is dead. Any of those calibers is perfectly capable of killifying someone who sorely needs it. I don't remember the history exactly as posted above. Back between the sell off of the BT and the newer stuff, there was a Winchester brand of XST, which is rumored to be "Exact Same Thing". You know, the evil propeller pedals that act as a buzz saw, churning up a huge path through the deserving receiver and maybe even stopping inside to chew on the surgeons fingers. Because the often AIDs infected druggie wasn't responsible for his actions, and his demise was a loss to society. He was right on the verge of curing cancer, becoming a Rocket surgeon, and becoming a minister. Oh, I left out carrying his aunts groceries for her. My apologies if I left out anything in that.

Black Talons reside in my gun room. Right beside the old Super Vel ammo. The stuff that approached light speed, melted in its travels, and burned or cauterized the receivers wounds after it made them. Guess that made it less effective because they couldn't then bleed out. But the stories and assumptions make good reading.

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Dick Burg

Say what you want about Black Talons but they were NEVER as deadly as the dreaded backwards loaded dumdum-or god forbid when you would etch a cross in the soft point so it would fragment into four pieces and then coated it with human feces and let dry-or making exploding bullets by putting a drop of mercury in a hollow point and closing up the hole with molten lead
Gawd I do miss the early 70's

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Forum consigliere

I thought the mercury was just supposed to be closed with wax so it can cause blood poisoning and eventual death!???!!

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Read a lot of Matt Sloan books back then, did'nja??

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.............SmithNut

In Jaws1 chief Brody put drops of cyanide in the hollow points then sealed with wax , intended for a 30 ft shark I know but that would ensure death to a human!

More more more...

Banned, really? Can you provide a link to ANY legitimate news source supporting this claim? My understanding is that Winchester pulled Black Talon from the market simply due to the publicity generated by that episode of CSI Miami and replaced it will the same bullet with the only change being the removal of the black coating from the copper jacket. Today that replacement is Winchester Ranger-T.

I would also expect that about the most "expansive" ammunition that a San Francisco Police Officer is permitted to carry would be semi wadcutters and considering the period of the films I would expect that is what Dirty Harry carried in his model 29. Considering the power of the 44 Magnum I don't believe that there is much advantage to using any expanding ammunition with the exception of reducing over penetration. Because lets face facts, shoot some bad guy with a well placed shot from a 44 Magnum he's gonna be DRT no matter what bullet is used.

Do you feel lucky,punk? : )

Marketed as "Same Xact Thing" I believe.

Not to perpetuate an urban myth, but I vaguely remember shops around me explaining that Black Talon ammo was pulled from the shelves because of the racial inflammation caused when the ammo was referred to as "Black Felon" ammo.

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Judge control not gun control!

Adding to the stack of stuff concerning Black Talon.
1. This ammo has been out of production for about 20 years. Even with proper storage, why take a chance?
2. I prefer fresh ammo in my self-defense guns.
3. I have and have carried Talon in several of my guns (45acp, 40S&W and 9mm. So I have no bias about the ammo but as I said, I like fresh ammo in my SD guns.

4053 40S&W,610 10mm,1006 10mm

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