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Old 07-14-2017, 11:02 PM
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.38 Special Kframe 2" vs 3" .38 Special Kframe 2" vs 3" .38 Special Kframe 2" vs 3" .38 Special Kframe 2" vs 3" .38 Special Kframe 2" vs 3"  
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Default .38 Special Kframe 2" vs 3"

do you think there is much difference between a 2" kframe and 3" kframe using duty type .38 special in a defensive situation?

3 yds
7 yds
15 yds
25 yds

thanks in advance

my dream to put a Model 65 3" RB back in my stable is always clouded by dollars.

A 2" Kframe RB .38 special revolver seems to be much more cost effective.

These days have to "watch" my dollars.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:18 PM
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I know you are a good competitor and very knowledgeable about revolvers, so you'll know what I mean that 3" are so much easier to reload than the shorter ejector rods. This is if circumstances and distance allow reloading....?
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Old 07-15-2017, 03:39 AM
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Not a big difference in my opinion. The extractor rod is shorter on the 2" but I've never had trouble pushing out the empties. I do find that I can shoot a bit faster with the 3" as it seems to recoil just slightly less.
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:34 AM
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Thanks for the info.

I mainly mess with 4" 586/686 these past several years, I done forgot about the short ejector rod associated with the 2".

While the price is much more inviting on the 2", I will focus on the 3"

Thanks again
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:55 AM
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You also have 2.5" barrels in the Models 19 and 66. All worth looking at.

Jerry
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:04 PM
VaTom VaTom is offline
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Used to qualify once a year with my 64 2" using a course of fire from 7,15,&25 yards. Never had any problems shooting in high 80s-low 90s. 18 of 60 rounds were from 25 yards. Never shot a 3" k frame.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:30 PM
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Both lengths are immensely popular, especially 3". Besides that, there are a lot less 3" in circulation.

I've never owned or shot a 2" K so I have nothing to compare, but I carry one of 2 3" 64s and love em. I can't see a 2" being any more concealable. The 3" has 50% more barrel. That's 50% more muzzle weight for controlability, longer sight radius, and more velocity shooting magnums or light-bullet +P ammo.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:23 PM
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I've owned a 3" 65 and a 2" 64, and have shot them back-to-back. I'm far from being an expert marksman, but here are my observations/opinions.

As far as accuracy potential, I didn't see a difference, though someone more skilled than me might be able to tell a difference at longer distances. The 3" did give me slightly faster follow-up shots than the 2". However, the 2" was noticeably quicker out of the holster for me.

The 3" does have a longer extractor rod so extraction can be more positive, but there are two points to consider. One, in real-world self defense shootings, reloads are very rare, and when they do happen they tend to not have an impact on the outcome. Two, the reloading technique I use involves pointing the gun muzzle up and then smacking the extractor rod with my palm. While I've never had a failure-to-extract with this technique using either 2" or 3" guns, there may be a higher likelihood of bending or damaging the 3" gun's extractor rod with an imperfect hit because it has more leverage than the 2" gun's shorter extractor rod. A damaged extractor rod can render the gun inoperable, whether it happens during an actual confrontation or during practice.

I carry IWB, and for me the 2" gun is a little bit more comfortable than the 3" gun, particularly when sitting. But this can depend on one's body size and shape. Some people may not be able to tell a difference, and carrying OWB may be even less of a concern.

Last point...How difficult would it be to replace a 3" K-frame versus a 2" K-frame if something were to happen, i.e. confiscated as evidence in a self-defense shooting or, more likely, some kind of mechanical breakage or even theft?

For these reasons, as much as I like 3" K-frames, for defensive/carry purposes, I'd probably lean towards a 2" K-frame, especially if I'm sticking with .38 Special ammo.

Just some things to consider.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:59 PM
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all valid points.

I will likely shoot defensive .38 commercial ammo.

while I have a decent supply of .357 on hand.

I had a 2" kframe model 10 Nickel (SB) and it was very capable....I much preferred the handling of the 3" Model 19/65.

I only posted this question as there was a Model 64 2" RB for sale for a decent price.....and this clouded my mind and smile to my pocket book.

but recalling when I had the model 10 2" and Model 65 3", the Model 65 rode in a holster more.

Now if I could find a factory Model 10 or 64 in 3" (not a built gun) .... that would definitely interest me. I think I will stick to the following and revisions my vary due to condition of the revolver.

Model 65-3 3"
Model 13-3 3"
Model 64 3"
Model 10 3"

thanks to all
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:57 PM
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In a defensive situation at 3 & 7 yards a civilian is better off with a 3-inch barrel which gives you a little better accuracy. At 15 or 25 yards it does not matter, as you will be facing attempted murder or murder charges. According to the FBI only 1 out of 1,000,000 shootings happen beyond 10 yards,
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luis View Post
In a defensive situation at 3 & 7 yards a civilian is better off with a 3-inch barrel which gives you a little better accuracy. At 15 or 25 yards it does not matter, as you will be facing attempted murder or murder charges. According to the FBI only 1 out of 1,000,000 shootings happen beyond 10 yards,
You apparently missed the case where an armed citizen used his .357 to save a cop's life when a thug had him pinned down with a rifle. The civilian shooter hit the crook from a reported 80 yards. Some accounts say the range was greater.

If marijuana growers think a fisherman or hiker has seen their plants, they may open fire at extended range, too. As may smugglers down around the Rio Grande.

Also, you may want the defense gun to double for shooting animals.

Current police thinking is that an agile man with a knife is too close at 21 feet. That's your max. distance of 7 yards. Personally, I'd shoot him at that distance and cite the published info by Ayoob and others. It may take more than one shot to stop such a man. Many shooters do well to hit him once before he has the knife in them. And your felon doesn't have to be a real track star to close that distance that fast, either.

A three-inch barrel extracts easier, shoots easier, and conveys about 80 FPS added velocity. That figure was obtained personally from Lee Jurras. He was citing his own brand, Super Vel, but tests I've read show that's average for other brands, too. When I was still a gun writer, I asked the Federal PR man to see how much difference it made, using his firm's 129 grain Hydra-Shok ammo. The same ratio applied.

He got an engineer to fire several rounds each from S&W M-36's, and the three-inch was indeed about 75-80 FPS faster than the true snub. The ammo was drawn from the current production lot, not specially selected.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-15-2017 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:34 PM
JohnRippert JohnRippert is offline
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I am a proponent of appendix carry and the 2inch guns just carry better at that position. I have seen no difference in accuracy between 2in and 3in revolvers. There will be a slight difference in velocity, but not as much as you would think.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:39 PM
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I am a proponent of appendix carry and the 2inch guns just carry better at that position. I have seen no difference in accuracy between 2in and 3in revolvers. There will be a slight difference in velocity, but not as much as you would think.
Actually, more than you'd think. See my other post. And most find three-inchers to be much easier to shoot well.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
You apparently missed the case where an armed citizen used his .357 to save a cop's life when a thug had him pinned down with a rifle. The civilian shooter hit the crook from a reported 80 yards. Some accounts say the range was greater.
Also, you may want the defense gun to double for shooting animals.
I did say it happens but it is extremely rare. Most of the time the civilian will be charged. One recent case up here farmers is out after coyotes and sees two men trying to break into neighbor’s farmhouse. Shoots one of the suspects with a rifle about 100 yards out. Charged with attempted murder. Was allowed to plead to aggravated assault with a firearm with 5 years probation and 20 years before he can ask to get his gun rights back. Another case and this one was in South Florida in 1995. Man getting ready to leave house for work witnesses neighbor’s 18 year old daughter being slapped by boyfriend outside of her house. Shot at 20 yards. Boyfriend dead man got twenty years.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:06 PM
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I did say it happens but it is extremely rare. Most of the time the civilian will be charged. One recent case up here farmers is out after coyotes and sees two men trying to break into neighbor’s farmhouse. Shoots one of the suspects with a rifle about 100 yards out. Charged with attempted murder. Was allowed to plead to aggravated assault with a firearm with 5 years probation and 20 years before he can ask to get his gun rights back. Another case and this one was in South Florida in 1995. Man getting ready to leave house for work witnesses neighbor’s 18 year old daughter being slapped by boyfriend outside of her house. Shot at 20 yards. Boyfriend dead man got twenty years.

BUT... in NEITHER of your shootings was use of a firearm warranted. Had the men breaking into the neighbor's house been shooting at the witness, the verdict might have been different.

The other case didn't even justify drawing a gun unless the girl's life was endangered.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-15-2017 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:23 PM
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The 3" barrel gets you an inch closer to your target...
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:38 PM
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Velocity will be slower out of a 2" barrel, but enough to matter? Maybe not. As far as accuracy, I've had some 2" guns that were more accurate than 4" guns and some 3" more accurate than 6". On average, longer barrels are more accurate, but individual guns are defying the law of averages all the time.

Something to keep in mind, though. I've been told that there are places where 20 or 25 yards would be dubious as "defensive" handgun use. Just what I've been told. I think 2" revolvers are accurate enough for most defensive applications.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:44 PM
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I have been issued and have owned 2" K square butts (and J) frames since about 1960. I would switch or trade for a 3" RB K frame in a heartbeat.

Best,
jack
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Old 07-15-2017, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
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The 3" barrel gets you an inch closer to your target...
this alone will be the decision maker!!!!!

thanks
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Old 07-16-2017, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
You apparently missed the case where an armed citizen used his .357 to save a cop's life when a thug had him pinned down with a rifle. The civilian shooter hit the crook from a reported 80 yards. Some accounts say the range was greater.

If marijuana growers think a fisherman or hiker has seen their plants, they may open fire at extended range, too. As may smugglers down around the Rio Grande.

Also, you may want the defense gun to double for shooting animals.

Current police thinking is that an agile man with a knife is too close at 21 feet. That's your max. distance of 7 yards. Personally, I'd shoot him at that distance and cite the published info by Ayoob and others. It may take more than one shot to stop such a man. Many shooters do well to hit him once before he has the knife in them. And your felon doesn't have to be a real track star to close that distance that fast, either.

A three-inch barrel extracts easier, shoots easier, and conveys about 80 FPS added velocity. That figure was obtained personally from Lee Jurras. He was citing his own brand, Super Vel, but tests I've read show that's average for other brands, too. When I was still a gun writer, I asked the Federal PR man to see how much difference it made, using his firm's 129 grain Hydra-Shok ammo. The same ratio applied.

He got an engineer to fire several rounds each from S&W M-36's, and the three-inch was indeed about 75-80 FPS faster than the true snub. The ammo was drawn from the current production lot, not specially selected.


How ya doing TS? I've been away from the forum for s while.

Yep, IIRC, Ayoobs study showed an adult in decent condition could cover 7 yards and deliver a fatal stab wound in 3 seconds.
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Old 07-16-2017, 01:06 PM
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I'll stick with a 2" both in K and J frames. With +P ammo there is plenty of stopping power a defensive distances. As we can see from some of the cases we would be hard pressed to justify self defense much past 10 yards. I owned a 3" 65 for years until it was stolen but honestly a 4" is just as easy to carry and a 3" does not pocket carry well.

A guy named Dennis Tueller for Salt Lake PD did the study back around '82-83, not Ayoob.
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:10 PM
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Default 25 yards ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by luis View Post
In a defensive situation at 3 & 7 yards a civilian is better off with a 3-inch barrel which gives you a little better accuracy. At 15 or 25 yards it does not matter, as you will be facing attempted murder or murder charges. According to the FBI only 1 out of 1,000,000 shootings happen beyond 10 yards,
Absolutely. If you shoot at a perp at anything over 10-15 yards, and do manage to hit and kill him, you'll be brought up on murder charges . And why practice shoot any defensive revolver, much less a short barrel, at anything over 7-10 yards ??
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