Older Model 10s and 38 +P...

[mainegrw]

I have an early 80s 10-8 with the 4” heavy barrel, and while reloading some brass from a stock of recently purchased factory ammo, I found that I had purchased and fired at least two boxes of 38+P by mistake (LGS loves putting price tags over the box end labels). I noticed no real ill effects from the use, however my curiosity remains about how detrimental +P ammo is on the older model 10s, considering that the newer ones are +P rated and are virtually similar to the 10-8 , save for some changes to the action and firing pin mounting.

Thoughts?


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[Richard Simmons]

I'd shoot as much +P out of it as you want/can afford and never give it a 2nd thought. Pretty sure I've seen it referenced a number of times that +P is fine in any model numbered revolver. My most recent is a 10-5 from 1962 and I know it will take all the +P I feed it.

[Kurusu]

Don't make an habit out of it. Otherwise you''ll be fine.

[RGVshooter]

I own/carry a 4" heavy barrel 10-8 police trade. A quick phone call to S&W customer service told me that it's shipping date was 1985. Although it's not stamped "+P" they told me all S&W revolvers made from 1957 to the present are +P safe. I've fired dozens of +P rounds and it can easily handle them.

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by RGVshooter

I own/carry a 4" heavy barrel 10-8 police trade. A quick phone call to S&W customer service told me that it's shipping date was 1985. Although it's not stamped "+P" they told me all S&W revolvers made from 1957 to the present are +P safe. I've fired dozens of +P rounds and it can easily handle them.

If anything goes wrong, can you make whomever answered your call responsable for the damage? If not, I'd play on the safe side. One or two boxes won't kill it. But why risk beyond that?

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

If anything goes wrong, can you make whomever answered your call responsable for the damage? If not, I'd play on the safe side. One or two boxes won't kill it. But why risk beyond that?

A 10-8 and a 13-2 are the same gun except for the charge holes. And one is a 357 magnum.

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[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Arik

A 10-8 and a 13-2 are the same gun except for the charge holes. And one is a 357 magnum.

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So is the 19. And they weren't made for a continuous diet of .357.

[Peak53]

And please be careful about characterizing a whippersnapper 10-8 as "older." If that is the case, then me and most of my guns are "dead."

[Walkingwolf]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

So is the 19. And they weren't made for a continuous diet of .357.

This is true, those guns were designed to be carried with mag ammo for defense, and 38 ammo for practice. Even at that some still suffered forcing cone damage.

The difference between 38 standard, and plus P is a little different though. Most factory loads are designed for the weaker guns the ammo may be used in like older guns with weak metal. Much like buying factory 45/70 ammo it is wayyy under power for it's capability in a strong rifle.

Colt advertised almost all their 38 revolvers could be shot with 38-44 in the 30's. I believe the pressure of those rounds was in the 20K+ range. Personally I have never seen a police model 10, or 64 shot loose, but when we changed to Winchester silver tips we shot only 18 a month, the rest was wadcutters. That would be 216 rounds a year of +P for several years without any noticeable wear.

[Richard Simmons]

Here's a thread from years ago with a detailed accounting of over 1,000 rds of +P .38 Special through an alloy frame Model 12.

+P Through a Model 12: THE TEST...is done!!!!


Understanding that the test only demonstrates the results for that individual revolver one could legitimately surmise that equal or ever far greater number of rounds should have no ill effect on an all steel revolver.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

So is the 19. And they weren't made for a continuous diet of .357.

But 357 is still more powerful than 38+p. So if it can withstand 357 it should be fine with 38+p. Besides I don't believe in that continuous use thing. It's a 357 and will shoot 357. There's no max amount of 357 that's allowable so what is continuous? Is it 6 rounds a year? One round a week? I've been shooting nothing but 357 in my 13-2 for years. It still shoots, no damage, no cracking. The way I see it is if it's built to withstand 357 then it should be able to be shot with 357. Until someone gives me a precise number of what's allowable I'll continue to shoot 357.

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[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Arik

But 357 is still more powerful than 38+p. So if it can withstand 357 it should be fine with 38+p. Besides I don't believe in that continuous use thing. It's a 357 and will shoot 357. There's no max amount of 357 that's allowable so what is continuous? Is it 6 rounds a year? One round a week? I've been shooting nothing but 357 in my 13-2 for years. It still shoots, no damage, no cracking. The way I see it is if it's built to withstand 357 then it should be able to be shot with 357. Until someone gives me a precise number of what's allowable I'll continue to shoot 357.

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That is all true. But the .38+P was made to be carried a lot and shot sparingly. Just as the .357 in the model 19.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

That is all true. But the .38+P was made to be carried a lot and shot sparingly. Just as the .357 in the model 19.

I just can't see that logic. Carried a lot to me means practice a lot (any gun/caliber). I don't understand how one doesn't practice with what they carry. The ones I shoot the most are the ones I carry because those are the ones I really on.

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[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Arik

I just can't see that logic. Carried a lot to me means practice a lot (any gun/caliber). I don't understand how one doesn't practice with what they carry. The ones I shoot the most are the ones I carry because those are the ones I really on.

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you can practice a lot with standard .38s, you only need to know the right point of aim with the others.

[Richard Simmons]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

That is all true. But the .38+P was made to be carried a lot and shot sparingly. Just as the .357 in the model 19.

Based on what documentation? Personal opinions are not the same as fact. Most folks probably practice with regular pressure ammo than +P due to cost more than fear of accelerated wear on the firearm but then again that's just my opinion based on my personal habits and those I've observed at my gun club range.

Not trying to change your opinion, we all know how those efforts turn out. Just trying to figure out how you formed it?

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

you can practice a lot with standard .38s, you only need to know the right point of aim with the others.

True enough but the difference between 38 and 357 is enough to make slower follow-up shots. Every time I shoot a 40sw it's slower than the 9mm from the same gun (taking out the errors of trigger pull). Because I don't practice with it nearly as much as I do with a 9

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[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Richard Simmons

Based on what documentation? Personal opinions are not the same as fact. Most folks probably practice with regular pressure ammo than +P due to cost more than fear of accelerated wear on the firearm but then again that's just my opinion based on my personal habits and those I've observed at my gun club range.

Not trying to change your opinion, we all know how those efforts turn out. Just trying to figure out how you formed it?

Based on Bill Jordan who started the model 19 concept.

[flagman1776]

This information is hard to find these days. Back in the 1970s S&W made an official statement that shooting +P in all MODEL MARKED STEEL FRAME revolvers is is fine. (Alloy frame "Airweight Models" are thus excepted.) All Model Marked guns are so marked in the yoke cut, as is yours. Your Model 10-8 is a later model & can eaily take +P.

+P will wear the gun a little faster but wear your hand and wallet more.

[murphydog]

SAAMI pressure for .38 Special is 17000 psi, + P is 20000, and .357 Magnum 35000. Theoretically .38 + P will put more stress on the gun if it is truly loaded to full pressure, but I doubt many large factories get close to it. (In the same way I doubt many factories load .38 to 17000 psi.)

To me, use all the .38 + P you want in any steel K frame but there isn't much of a point of doing so, unless you just want to. Plenty of cases of K frame .357s being damaged by extensive use of full loads, but I don't recall ever reading about or seeing a .38 having the same effects from + P.

[mainegrw]

Originally Posted by flagman1776

This information is hard to find these days. Back in the 1970s S&W made an official statement that shooting +P in all MODEL MARKED STEEL FRAME revolvers is is fine. (Alloy frame "Airweight Models" are thus excepted.) All Model Marked guns are so marked in the yoke cut, as is yours. Your Model 10-8 is a later model & can eaily take +P.

+P will wear the gun a little faster but wear your hand and wallet more.

Thanks for the info, I thought I had read this somewhere before, but wasn’t sure. I don’t make a habit out of shooting +P, this time it was just a mistake.

Believe it or not 38 +P is usually cheaper at my LGS than regular 38 Special. Thus, I’ve bought it from time to time to shoot in my 357s, but typically stay away from it for the 38 revolvers. Really, I load more revolver ammo than I buy commercially, so this shouldn’t be too much of an issue.


Thanks to everyone else who also replied, I see the debate is awfully fierce on this topic...


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[Richard Simmons]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

Based on Bill Jordan who started the model 19 concept.

Thank you. It helps to understand whether an opinion is based on personal experience, factory literature, something they read, laboratory testing, etc. Doesn't make one more correct than an other just to better understand the reasoning if any.

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Arik

True enough but the difference between 38 and 357 is enough to make slower follow-up shots. Every time I shoot a 40sw it's slower than the 9mm from the same gun (taking out the errors of trigger pull). Because I don't practice with it nearly as much as I do with a 9

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Under adrenaline you won't notice the difference.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

Under adrenaline you won't notice the difference.

Possibly but you revert to your training

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[Walkingwolf]

Professional drag cars are built to withstand 10K rpm, but they get rebuilt after every race. Sometimes between races. Every piece of equipment has a use life, the wear depends on how it is used. A fine Forschner knife would last most people a lifetime. Put that knife in the hands of a butcher, and it will be thin in a year. No doubts though the knife was made for a professional meat cutter.

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Arik

Possibly but you revert to your training

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At the average confrontation distance the difference in point of impact will be negligeble for center of mass shots.

[Walkingwolf]

Originally Posted by Arik

Possibly but you revert to your training

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The most important training is the training of the mind, without it any other training is substandard. Many people have defended themselves with a MUCH higher rate of proficiency than trained officers in shootings. With absolutely no training at all, in fact before concealed carry laws changed most guns were bought, shot once, and put in a drawer until used effectively for self defense.

My dad had no training at all in SD ice tong use, but opened the skull of an armed robber with one. I am guessing that he thought in his mind that if I hit the guy with a knife in the head it will crack his skull open, and it did.

What do you do when you depend on so much on firearms training, and when the stink happens all you have is a set of ice tongs?

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

What do you do when you depend on so much on firearms training, and when the stink happens all you have is a set of ice tongs?

Use the ice tongs.

Mankind real weapon is between the ears.

[Arik]

Originally Posted by Walkingwolf

The most important training is the training of the mind, without it any other training is substandard. Many people have defended themselves with a MUCH higher rate of proficiency than trained officers in shootings. With absolutely no training at all, in fact before concealed carry laws changed most guns were bought, shot once, and put in a drawer until used effectively for self defense.

My dad had no training at all in SD ice tong use, but opened the skull of an armed robber with one. I am guessing that he thought in his mind that if I hit the guy with a knife in the head it will crack his skull open, and it did.

What do you do when you depend on so much on firearms training, and when the stink happens all you have is a set of ice tongs?

Well I guess I need to get training in scissors, letter openers, bricks, chairs, glass jars, metal coffee pots, and pretty much anything I have laying around the house

Yes mindset is important but so is training. Just because your dad managed that....and good for him.... doesn't mean it will for someone else. And mindset is not an excuse for not training/practice

I don't buy that use effectively after shooting once. The outcome may have ultimately been favorable but that not the same as effective. If this was the case all you'd need is cops with a certain mindset and no training. That would make all shots count

[Pisgah]

I honestly think the reason they began stamping "+P" on their .38s was because they got tired of answering the "Is it OK...?" question so much...

[Walkingwolf]

Originally Posted by Arik

Well I guess I need to get training in scissors, letter openers, bricks, chairs, glass jars, metal coffee pots, and pretty much anything I have laying around the house

Yes mindset is important but so is training. Just because your dad managed that....and good for him.... doesn't mean it will for someone else. And mindset is not an excuse for not training/practice

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Training is NOTHING like the real thing, nothing. That is why so many officers buckle under pressure. Such as the officer that shot nine innocent bystanders in New York as he was running away from a man with a gun. His partner took a position behind a planter, and ventilated him. Here was the case of two men with identical training.

Look at DW, instead of hitting the gas when attacked he went for his gun, and almost lost it. It was his firearms training that made him make the wrong choice. He could have saved himself a lot of grief by dragging the thug for a couple hundred feet.

There was an officer on another department that worked for Brink's part time. He shot his partner in the butt because the door of a store hit him in the back, and he panicked pulled his gun, and boom.

Thinking under pressure is the most important training there is, some people that just comes from living. We have had many cases of successful firearms use in the Carolina's with the people having absolutely no training at all. In fact most of the home invasions where the perp has been shot has been people with NO training.

[Arik]

Right! No training! Got it! Good luck with that

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[RGVshooter]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

So is the 19. And they weren't made for a continuous diet of .357.

If you knew the history of the development of the 357 combat magnum, later known as the model 19 then you would know how silly of a statement that was.

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Arik

Right! No training! Got it! Good luck with that

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I believe Walkingwolf is not advocating no training. He's just saying it is not a guarantee to prevail.

And I do train.

And not only with firearms.

[Richard Simmons]

Thread has drifted pretty badly. I apologize to the OP for any part my posts may have had.

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by RGVshooter

If you knew the history of the development of the 357 combat magnum, later known as the model 19 then you would know how silly of a statement that was.

I don't claim to know all. And have been wrong before. But maybe you can advance my knowledge, please.

[ParadiseRoad]

...38/44...the answer to all +P questions...

[Kurusu]

Originally Posted by Richard Simmons

Thread has drifted pretty badly. I apologize to the OP for any part my posts may have had.

Oops. One gets carried away.

I also apologize for my part.

[RGVshooter]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

If anything goes wrong, can you make whomever answered your call responsable for the damage? If not, I'd play on the safe side. One or two boxes won't kill it. But why risk beyond that?

The 10-8's to present are made of carbon steel. There are many, many sources & references available that all points towards K frame revolvers manufactured after 1958 can handle +P ammunition. Although I don't plan on shooting +P mainly cause it's more expensive. The gun can handle it if you plan on carrying it for SD.

This is a direct quote from a 1993 owners manual.

"Revolvers in which .38 Special +P ammunition can be used:

J frames - Models 60-4 (full underlug barrel only), 60-7, 60-8, 640, 649-2
K frames - Models 10, 13, 14, 15, 19, 64, 65, 66, 67
L frames - Models 581, 586, 681, 686
N frames - Models 27, 28, 627".

[Walkingwolf]

I also apologize, but I still believe that as long as OP does not shoot multi thousands of +P he will never see any noticeable wear. Ours saw at least a thousand without any noticeable wear. Now tread lightly with 38/44 handloads, they should be used sparingly in a K frame. But I see no problem with them for carry.

[RGVshooter]

Originally Posted by Kurusu

I don't claim to know all. And have been wrong before. But maybe you can advance my knowledge, please.

The only downfall to forums, or texting etc is one can't hear the tone in ones voice or the way it's said. But no negativity was intended on my part. But moving forward... There's lot's of good reviews & articles on the model 19 available online, Wikipedia is a good start, but doesn't tell the "whole story". But yeah, it's built for continuous 357 magnum use just like my 686, but most LEO agency's back in the day and us civilians, we use 38spl mostly because it's cheaper to shoot and easier to control.

[apollo99]

I was issued a 10-8 4" heavy barrel, NYPD issued us 158 gr. 38 special +P ammunition exclusively for that and the S&W model 36. I've shot nothing but +P out of those revolvers their entire lives. Thousands of rounds out of each. I went through two sets of grips and one ejection rod, but no kaboom from the model 10.

[RGVshooter]

Originally Posted by apollo99

I was issued a 10-8 4" heavy barrel, NYPD issued us 158 gr. 38 special +P ammunition exclusively for that and the S&W model 36. I've shot nothing but +P out of those revolvers their entire lives. Thousands of rounds out of each. I went through two sets of grips and one ejection rod, but no kaboom from the model 10.

Did it look like this?

[rwsmith]

Model 10s can fire +Ps all day, every day. Even back when +Ps were real +Ps. Today's Buffalo Bore and all those boutique rounds are where you get the power, or if you do your own reloading like a lot of us do you can shoot anything within SAAMI specs.

From the old days I have an early '70s Sierra manual that had really hot loads compared to today's rounds. My model 10 never even breathed hard.

They didn't start stamping +P until it was called into question. The +P rating for ammo wasn't 'invented' until the early '70's. And it doesn't mean OVER pressure it means ADDED Pressure which is simply higher up the scale toward a maximum load, but not past it.

Now this doesn't apply to +P+ ammo. There is NO SPECIFICATION OR STANDARD for +P+. It's up to you whether you shoot it in your gun or not. I have no desire to shoot anything with an unknown rating, but I'm sure my model 10 would take it in stride.

Guns used to be made of all steel. Experiments with aluminum before the 60s failed. When a lot of people started buying alloy and plastic in the '70s/80's it caused confusion and some pistols were made that didn't recommend +P at all. The model 10 is a strong modern all steel gun and has never been in doubt, at all about taking +P ammo. Even the Cor-bons and Buffalo Bore stuff.

[one eye joe]

Originally Posted by RGVshooter

I own/carry a 4" heavy barrel 10-8 police trade. A quick phone call to S&W customer service told me that it's shipping date was 1985. Although it's not stamped "+P" they told me all S&W revolvers made from 1957 to the present are +P safe. I've fired dozens of +P rounds and it can easily handle them.

I THINK THAT THIS SHOULD SERVE AS THE DEFINITIVE STATEMENT, RIGHT FROM THE MOTHERSHIP. THANKS FOR SHARING, RGVshooter.....

[apollo99]

RGVshooter Yes it does.

[mainegrw]

Originally Posted by RGVshooter

Did it look like this?

I could swear that I was staring at my own model 10-8 in this photo, it even had the same grips on it before I swapped them for an old set of Herretts High Thumb Rest Troopers.

I’ll admit that I’ve always been more drawn to adjustable sight revolvers, and then mostly N-Frames. I bought the model 10-8 on a whim, and it has become my favorite revolver because the size, weight, and performance characteristics nearly perfect. It’s no wonder why S&W has been making this model continuously for more than 100 years with only a few changes along the way. It is to me the perfect 38 caliber revolver, and a celebrated part of my collection.


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[bronco45]

Modern 38 Special +Ps are 18-20 K psi. The old 38-44 loads were 25K plus and modern 357s are 30-35K.

The Treasury load in the 80s a +P+ load was 22-25K. I was a police revolver instructor in the 80s through 2000. A good K frame that has a model # will shoot 38s 10-16 Kpsi forever, and +Ps at 18-19 K psi for nearly as long.

[sigp220.45]

Modern +P stuff is pretty tame.

I used to qualify quarterly with a Model 36 and Hydra-Shok +P+ 147 grainers. Out of a 4" barrel they did maybe 950 fps. Not particularly robust. The Chief Special and I both survived just fine, yet every now and then someone will advise to only shoot them out of an N-frame .357!

I wouldn't think twice about shooting bucket loads of +P out of a steel K-frame.

[bmcgilvray]

I'm utterly unconcerned about +P and its use in a 1971 vintage Model 10-6 I keep here. The revolver has proven to be far too tough for +P over 40 years of use with all the +P and equivalent handloads I desire.

[rwsmith]

The OPs question concerns the Model 10 and only the model 10. It doesn't matter what a model 19 does or a J frame .357 or any other K frame.

The question is whether specifically model 10s can handle +P ammo.