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  #51  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:53 AM
Coaltminer Coaltminer is offline
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DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER?  
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Default Did the Single Stack 9mm Kill the Carry Revolver

One more post. I've been using the same range about once a week for 35 years and have never seen anyone shooting a J frame or Colt snubby. Amazing
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  #52  
Old 07-25-2017, 07:59 AM
silversnake silversnake is offline
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Originally Posted by Coaltminer View Post
One more post. I've been using the same range about once a week for 35 years and have never seen anyone shooting a J frame or Colt snubby. Amazing
It's similar where I shoot. Almost nobody has a revolver, about the only time I see one is when one of the instructors is teaching handgun basics and has a student take a few shots with a revolver.

I won't say what he's shooting but the trigger on his revolver is so bad I'd be amazed if any of his students ever wants to shoot one again.
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Old 07-25-2017, 07:59 AM
g8rb8 g8rb8 is offline
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Originally Posted by white cloud View Post
I am an engineer by education but my wife is the more logical of the two of us. Now that I have that kicked that nugget of information out there, here goes my story. I have taken my wife shooting handguns a number of times but this year she decided she wanted her very own home defense gun. She wanted to look at the various options again so I got out a Kahr CM9, a Glock and P series SIG along with a S&W M60 and a Ruger Security Six from the safe. I explain the manual of arms for all of them and showed her how to load and shoot all of them. This took a while and to be fair, she couldn't rack the slide on the Kahr by herself. At the end of this exercise she looked at me and asked why anyone would chose an autoloader for self defense. We then drove to the local gun shop and she purchased a new M67. This is a very nice shooting gun by the way.
I observed a similar interesting experience with a 21 year old female who was able to experience a wide variety of semi-autos and revolvers. Wise beyond her years with one post-graduate degree and now in law school, she picked a 4" .38 special M&P from the late 1940's with an action smooth as butter.

Women are the more intelligent of the species ....... according to my wife ..........and my observations tend to support that notion.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by silversnake View Post
Could you please link to these armed citizens who died because their revolvers ran out of ammo? My reload is going to be to grab another snubby, hopefully that won't take too long.
I used the term, 'either died or lost the gunfight'. Here are some examples:

1) Massad Ayoob collects many of these cases. Rich Davis, the man who invented second chance vests, took a bullet to the guts after emptying his 6 shot wheelgun at three armed thugs, hitting three of them multiple times.

2) Here's the case of Jason Hendrix (off duty, in a shopping center). He had a 5 shot S&W model 36, the suspect had a Glock 17. Hendrix shot the suspect 4 times out of five, twice hitting him in the chest, and then his gun went dry. The suspect shot Hendrix in the face, guts, arm, pelvis, and tried to execute him as he laid on the ground. Shots Fired: Palm Desert, California 03•30•1996 - Article - POLICE Magazine

3) The death of NJSP trooper Lamonaco prompted the dept. to switch from 6 shot 357 magnums to the 9 shot HK P7M8. Lamonaco was shot by environmental terrorists who wielded browning hi-powers against the trooper's 6 shot revolver.

4) The ISP switched to the S&W model 39 (8 shot 9mm). In that time period, there were at least one, if not a few, cases where troopers would have certainly died if all they had were the 6 shot wheelguns. There was one case where the suspect counted 6 shots from the trooper's pistol, and after the sixth, charged the trooper with his shotgun. The trooper shot the suspect with his last few rounds. The suspect told his attorney he swore the cop's gun was empty.

5) There's the case in California, where at least one trooper was killed after his K-frame magnum ran dry. When he took the knee to reload, the suspect executed him with a 9mm before the trooper could close the cylinder.

That's just five that I remember off hand. there are many more cases where 5-6 were not enough.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:05 AM
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l read somewhere years ago that New York City keeps detailed records of

gunfights in the city and has been since 1852. Reading along it said the

average number of ''Shots Fired'' over these last 165 years 2.7 rounds..

Using that information leads me to the conclusion l have enough rounds

in my little Centennial Model for TWO gunfights before having to reload.
Then all you really need is a Derringer

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Old 07-25-2017, 08:08 AM
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Small Semi-Autos may be more popular but, the Snub Revolver will still live in many pockets and waist bands forever. The Semi-Auto guys just haven't discovered what they are missing. Give it time.........
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
I used the term, 'either died or lost the gunfight'. Here are some examples:

1) Massad Ayoob collects many of these cases. Rich Davis, the man who invented second chance vests, took a bullet to the guts after emptying his 6 shot wheelgun at three armed thugs, hitting three of them multiple times.

2) Here's the case of Jason Hendrix (off duty, in a shopping center). He had a 5 shot S&W model 36, the suspect had a Glock 17. Hendrix shot the suspect 4 times out of five, twice hitting him in the chest, and then his gun went dry. The suspect shot Hendrix in the face, guts, arm, pelvis, and tried to execute him as he laid on the ground. Shots Fired: Palm Desert, California 03•30•1996 - Article - POLICE Magazine

3) The death of NJSP trooper Lamonaco prompted the dept. to switch from 6 shot 357 magnums to the 9 shot HK P7M8. Lamonaco was shot by environmental terrorists who wielded browning hi-powers against the trooper's 6 shot revolver.

4) The ISP switched to the S&W model 39 (8 shot 9mm). In that time period, there were at least one, if not a few, cases where troopers would have certainly died if all they had were the 6 shot wheelguns. There was one case where the suspect counted 6 shots from the trooper's pistol, and after the sixth, charged the trooper with his shotgun. The trooper shot the suspect with his last few rounds. The suspect told his attorney he swore the cop's gun was empty.

5) There's the case in California, where at least one trooper was killed after his K-frame magnum ran dry. When he took the knee to reload, the suspect executed him with a 9mm before the trooper could close the cylinder.

That's just five that I remember off hand. there are many more cases where 5-6 were not enough.
Other than Mr. Davis every case involves LEOs, not armed citizens...I agree there are cases where 5-6 rounds were not enough, but unlike a state trooper, I don't have to stick around to apprehend a bad guy.

Look at the story of Jason Hendrix for example, he hears a disturbance at the front of Wal-Mart and goes to resolve the situation. Me? I'll walk out the back door and not feel an iota of guilt.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by silversnake View Post
Other than Mr. Davis every case involves LEOs, not armed citizens...I agree there are cases where 5-6 rounds were not enough, but unlike a state trooper, I don't have to stick around to apprehend a bad guy.

Look at the story of Jason Hendrix for example, he hears a disturbance at the front of Wal-Mart and goes to resolve the situation. Me? I'll walk out the back door and not feel an iota of guilt.
Just like the case where a lady shot her intruder 5 times with a J frame and nothing happened. Luckily for her, he didn't know she was out of ammo and decided to leave instead of getting shot a 6th time

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Old 07-25-2017, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by silversnake View Post
Other than Mr. Davis every case involves LEOs, not armed citizens...I agree there are cases where 5-6 rounds were not enough, but unlike a state trooper, I don't have to stick around to apprehend a bad guy.

Look at the story of Jason Hendrix for example, he hears a disturbance at the front of Wal-Mart and goes to resolve the situation. Me? I'll walk out the back door and not feel an iota of guilt.
There are times when running away are not an option. The Hendrix case could have happened to any one of us, LEO or not, given slightly different details at the outset. Had this not been a domestic, but the suspect was a mass shooter, we may be forced to return fire to protect ourselves and our dependents. I have a three year old daughter. I cannot run away from a firefight the same way I could if I were alone.

Explaining away these cases by saying 'That won't happen to me, because I'll just run away', doesn't address the real issue at hand: When you are forced to defend yourself and family, 5-6 rounds *may not be enough*.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:38 AM
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This whole article really doesn't say anything or prove any kind of a point one way or another, and how many times have we heard this question asked in one form or another?

It's simply another "analysis" or opinion piece written by just another Internet blogger "gun writer" who really reaches no kind of definite conclusion. We've seen thousands of articles like this. This author brings his article to a close by basically saying it's up to the individual as to which gun he chooses. Insert huge yawn here_______________.

There is absolutely nothing new here, and really not one original thought in the whole thing. I don't think there's anything in the article that's going to make anyone here change their mind about their carry weapon of choice.

We've had better and more knowledgeable thoughts on this subject written by members of this forum.

Matter of fact, this little article isn't even about whether or not the single stack has doomed the revolver to extinction.
All it is is just another comparison piece...revolver vs. semi-auto. It actually sounds like a similar article written by the same guy wherein he talks about small semi-auto pistols.

Articles like this one bore the bejesus out of me. Makes me want to go back to bed and take a nap. Probably the best idea I've had all morning.

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Old 07-25-2017, 08:51 AM
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From an historical point of view, I can remember when the wonder-nines first hit the market, excluding the pre-existing Browning HP, everybody had to have one. In reality, police do need high capacity pistols on occasion. One need only study the 1970 Newhall incident to see how that tragedy changed police training and may have been instrumental in the wholesale transition to the autoloader.

I use both a Model 36 and a Kahr P9 for EDC but I prefer to carry a Glock 19 or my Browning HP when going to retail stores. You need to get the job done with what's in the gun. If you must reload, you're probably in very serious trouble. Look up the Sgt. James O'Sullivan shooting at a lower Manhattan (NY) Radio Shack to see what happens when a Model 36 is deployed against multiple armed robbers.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:52 AM
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There are times when running away are not an option. The Hendrix case could have happened to any one of us, LEO or not, given slightly different details at the outset. Had this not been a domestic, but the suspect was a mass shooter, we may be forced to return fire to protect ourselves and our dependents. I have a three year old daughter. I cannot run away from a firefight the same way I could if I were alone.

Explaining away these cases by saying 'That won't happen to me, because I'll just run away', doesn't address the real issue at hand: When you are forced to defend yourself and family, 5-6 rounds *may not be enough*.
I agree the lack of capacity did not help Mr. Hendrix, but his problems went beyond the revolver. Why was his gun stored in his wife's purse? Why did he have no spare ammunition? Let's say he did have a Shield with 8 or 9 rounds, he'd still be at a disadvantage against a guy with Glock 17. If you're outgunned, you need a better strategy.

Instead, Hendrix walked right up to a guy who had a drawn gun and announced he was a cop. Would you do anything like that with a mass shooter? I'd prefer to shoot the bad guy right in the back of his head, no warnings.
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Old 07-25-2017, 09:20 AM
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As gun ownership expanded, carry permits in states that never had them were available, the demand for small guns rapidly increased. Low cost, light polymer handguns became the rage. I saw dozens of them come into our range. The bulk of them virtually un-shootable by all but the most experienced shooters.

Personally I bought this to give me one more round than my other snubbies and sold my S&W Shield and 3" Kimber .45.



On days I think I may more need firepower,

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Old 07-25-2017, 09:31 AM
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Well they are still sought after, and sold so no. As far as cost a inexpensive semi auto gets real expensive with the amount of ammo mag dumps consume.

Revolver shooters don't do mag dumps.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:36 AM
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My daily attire, what I wear, dictates what I carry as a concealed sidearm. For approx 8 months of the year, I wear shorts(swim trunks). The other 4 months, warm-ups long pants.
Rarely do I wear long pants with a belt.
I will be 79 on Aug 19th. I am a born Texan, veteran.
Therefore, my daily carry is a Kel-Tec P-11 holding a total of 12 rounds of 9mm Luger hi-po hollow points.
My other carry is a Smith&Wesson stainless Model 60 .357 mag with 5 rounds of 125 grain hi-po .357 hollow points.
As a retired Leo,this attire reflects that I am just an old male curmudgeon shopping at the store. Nothing more.
I mind my own business and do not get involved unless I am in danger.
That's it, nothing more.
Texas stores are full of old farts just like me.
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Arik View Post
Then all you really need is a Derringer

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Yes Arik.. A Hi Standard 22Mag 2shot makes me feel just as

SAFE as my Centennial.. Flattest gun you can carry.. Countless

law enforcement officers STILL carry them. A couple 22Mags

to the gut will give ANYONE a bad day...Want penetration??

Load that Hi Standard with 40gr 22Mag FMJ!!! Retiring from

Uncle Sugars' Army in 1993 after 26 years... Then going to

lraq 2003-2004 has made me a bit familiar with autos of most

varieties. l own Colt, Beretta, Browning autos... All BIG and heavy.

Even bought a 42 Glockalock recently.. NOTHING make me ANY

safer than my Centennial.. Never ceases to amaze going to Shooters.

Watching the others blaze away @ 5yards mercilessly into their

B27 targets... Then theres RAMBO with his tricked out AR chewing

up his target WAY out there @ 12 yards
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Old 07-25-2017, 10:53 AM
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Where and how they shoot is their problem. If he wants to shoot a 50bmg at 3 yards past his barrel it's not my money not my problem.

LEO carry them as back up. That's in case they run all mags dry and still need a gun and there's no back up.



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Old 07-25-2017, 11:41 AM
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"There is absolutely nothing new here, and really not one original thought in the whole thing. I don't think there's anything in the article that's going to make anyone here change their mind about their carry weapon of choice."

This is a true statement. Mostly because there are very few, if any, original thoughts left lying on the table! Mostly because it's a Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, et all discussion. There are really no right or wrong answers that work for all of us. All of these brands will get you from here to New York (if that's where you want to go!), but only IF you don't get into a head on collision. The trick is to have a well maintained vehicle that you are able to operate well while you are doing your absolute best to avoid that head on collision!

We are fortunate to have so very many "good" choices. Most of us have favorites among brands and styles. Sometimes those favorites change, and some of us can make it to New York in any of them, maybe faster or slower, maybe more comfortably in some, but all of us have to avoid those head on crashes. Sometimes we can't do that, but if we are paying attention along the way, we have the best chance of doing that. In almost every case, the most important factor in the equasion of survival is the mind set and skill of the operator involved!

We all pay our money and take our chances. Ain't nuthin' guaranteed along the way. We make the best of bad and good situations that we face. We try to be as prepared as we can to do the best we can. Then we deal with the consequences of our own choices!

Revolvers and semi autos ... they are both good and they are both bad. One works better for some, and the other works better for others. Make your best choice and use it to the best of your ability. But do what's best for you, regardless of what may be best for someone else. Don't change until you have tested the new possible choice to find out before the crash if it's really better than what you already have! And then be happy with your choice. Doesn't matter whether anyone else agrees with you as long as you know what makes you happy and will work for you! And remember, it's OK to like both!!!
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Old 07-25-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by g8rb8 View Post
I observed a similar interesting experience with a 21 year old female who was able to experience a wide variety of semi-autos and revolvers. Wise beyond her years with one post-graduate degree and now in law school, she picked a 4" .38 special M&P from the late 1940's with an action smooth as butter.

Women are the more intelligent of the species ....... according to my wife ..........and my observations tend to support that notion.
My wife has an earned doctorate and is very creative in a practical way. I was actually pushing the SIG because of it's size but she wanted nothing to do with it. I asked why she like the K Frame so much. Her reply was something along the lines of "simple to understand and operate and easy to hit with".
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by American1776 View Post
Explaining away these cases by saying 'That won't happen to me, because I'll just run away', doesn't address the real issue at hand: When you are forced to defend yourself and family, 5-6 rounds *may not be enough*.
And neither may 17 rounds. That's why I choose to play by the odds, not arm myself for Armageddon every time I leave the house.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:30 PM
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I have carried Glocks and XDs. with multipal mags. There is always going to be "well what if". These days I don't carry more than a 7 shooter and a 5 shooter plus reloads. If it takes more "oh well". Odds are I will never need any. Sometimes you just got to run what you brung and hope for the best.
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:37 PM
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DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER?  
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If all I had was a 9 m/m pistol single or double stack I would be at the gun store before it closed today and trade for a .38 spec. revolver. Larry
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Old 07-25-2017, 01:44 PM
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Default SS's OUTSELLING SNUB REVOLVERS?

SS 9mm's outselling snub revolvers at this moment, probably. Total #'s of snub revolvers owned WORLDWIDE vs SS 9's, not even close. The wonder 9's don't amount to a pimple on the backside of the snubs. That MAY change someday, but I kinda doubt it. Double stack 9's would be outselling the SS's IMO, cuz they are tactikewler.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:08 PM
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There will always be .38 snubs, in the same way you will always be able to go into a store and buy a .36 caliber cap and ball Navy like Wild Bill used to carry.

Go to a range. See what people are buying and shooting.

I love my .38s, and I carry them often. The last gun I bought was a Terrier and I was happy to find it. Colt just dumbfounded the internet by introducing a .38 snubby. Here in our little bubble we all love them and happily carry them, but look around and I think you'll see the answer to the OP's question is: Damn near.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:27 PM
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while I think they do have a place, it seems that place is shrinking rapidly, I think price point alone is helping the 9, $200 shields vs $350-400 j frames, the 9s ammo is also cheaper then 38spl, all things people look at when buying new guns, atleast I do, ammo capcity, price, how hard it is to find food for, track record, just my thought on the debate.
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Old 07-25-2017, 04:11 PM
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Think a lot depends on age and experience.

If you are as old as me and you can remember when you had two choices, a wheel gun or a 3 lb brick bottom feeder you could not conceal except in winter you probably grew up on wheel guns.....

My LGS tells stories of the younger gen (for a large part not all for sure ) not being interested in heavy high capacity bottom feeders for concealed carry...and not a lot interested in wheel guns either....more so small concealable lightweigh bottom feeders. (not all as I said but the trend is trending).....

Wheel guns will always be in style and the choice of many....
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Old 07-25-2017, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by silversnake View Post
Not a chance. If I'm going to accept the drawbacks of an autoloader I want as much capacity as I can get. A semiauto that only holds a round or two more than a revolver seems like the worst possible compromise in my opinion.

Edit: Maybe I'm being a bit harsh. For the people who can't learn to shoot a revolver (I haven't met many, but I hear on the Internet they exist) I suppose the single stack 9 is a good option.
I've got to agree with Silversnake. I retired from the job when the transition was being made from revolvers to semi autos. Being an FBI trained and certified firearms instructor, I was all for the change only because of the large round capacity. 15 rounds is better in a gun fight than 6. That being said, if it's only a few rounds difference or the same amount, I'll take the reliability of the revolver any day. I'm long retired (29 years) so I really don't have a need for a high capacity semi, but I do occasionally carry them. However, I carry big bore snubbies often in cooler weather. I feel they are more reliable and accurate.
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sigp220.45 View Post
Here in our little bubble we all love them and happily carry them, but look around and I think you'll see the answer to the OP's question is: Damn near.
I'll have to agree. I'm the only one of about 10 of my shooting buddies that ever shoots a revolver, much less carries one.
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Old 07-25-2017, 06:41 PM
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I love the look on the folks at the range when I whip out........




a revolver



Some look at it like an alien landed.
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Old 07-26-2017, 12:11 AM
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I love the look on the folks at the range when I whip out........

a revolver

Some look at it like an alien landed.
Or... Oh crud. Got to move! I'm going to get blasted with **** coming out to the side of that thing!!!
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Old 07-26-2017, 01:29 AM
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I still love my Kahrs. I have 5 and have only had a moments trouble with one, at break in. I carry the CM9 with 7 rds and a trigger that feels like the finest S&W DA trigger ever honed at 6 pounds. Carry a spare mag with 7 and love the sights. Not until the 640 Pro did Smith make a serious sight for a belly gun under 2.25"s The gun 20ozs loaded with 124 grain 9mms that out shine the 38 +P greatly. I have many wheel guns of several makes and frame sizes but the CM9 in summer and CW45 in winter are my go to guns. 10 yrs of Kahrs and I have found them to be utterly reliable.
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:55 AM
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Do you guys know how many 642's S&W sells every year?

Answer: a lot.

Seriously, all these "revolvers are dead/obsolete/etc" articles are from precisely two kinds of miserable gun'riters: Either hot-air keyboard commandos of the new millennium desperate to convince their readers that their way is the Only Way, or old fogies trying to convince themselves that they're special.

They're both idiots.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:44 AM
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This thread has really brought out the revolver partisans, but my experience is different. I carried one of two of the J frames I own until I got one of the stainless S&W .380 PPK pistols.
For me, it was much easier to carry and far more accurate. I added a PPK/s magazine and a grip spacer for one more round, broke all those sharp edges with a fine file, put a tiny piece of 3M tread tape on the front of the grip, and it is perfect for my use and ability.
The reliability of the little PPK, it's safety, and its accuracy overcome any misgivings I had about caliber.
Here in the Sunny Southern Hell we call summer in Virginia, the PPK is perfect. In cooler months (which can't come too soon) I'll have a larger single stack 9, like a Walther PPS. The revolvers stay at home.
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Old 07-26-2017, 07:49 AM
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If the single stack semi auto had killed the revolver then it would have happened a hundred and twentyfive years ago with this little addition to the American firearms inventory!
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:09 AM
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I think it comes down to what the folks see on TV. Or whatever form of "fiction" or "reality" they believe is what they need....not what they can actually "use well".
Case in point, my daughter, she is in her 30's and asked for a handgun, she's never owned one of her own. So I said, SURE! What do you want? She said "a pink one", took me about a year to get over that and to seriously get down to finding out what to get her. I brought over a S&W Mod 36, a Glock sub in 9mm, a Beretta Storm sub-compact in 9mm and basically she dismissed the revolver completely, wouldn't have anything to do with it....because it wasn't "cool". Ended up she liked the "feel" of the Glock, she couldn't even rack the slide, but had to have it....THIS is why revolvers are out of style, it is the mindset...she doesn't shoot but MAYBE once a year and SHOULD honestly have the S&W Mod 36....but at least she has a gun now, her husband promised to work with her building up her strength so she could at least chamber a round!
It's been a year now, she hasn't ever shot the Glock. Or anything else. I still have the S&W Mod 36....she'll see the light one day.
I've seen this same scenario a LOT at a local gun shop, salesman sells someone a handgun, semi auto, the person can't even operate it! Women can't work the slide....they sell it to them anyways. I have to wonder how many folks that purchase these weapons actually know how to use them! From what I've seen, not many, they purchase what they see is used on TV and folks that talk-up how awful and useless a revolver is these days, that "volume of fire" seems to be what you want....not hitting what you AIM at...just throw enough rounds down range quickly and chances are your target will get hit!

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Old 07-26-2017, 08:32 AM
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Or... Oh crud. Got to move! I'm going to get blasted with **** coming out to the side of that thing!!!
You should see em' run when the FA 454 comes out.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:52 AM
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Default And In Conclusion

If you search youtube, you'll find many instances of storekeepers attempting to deploy all many of firearms and who failed miserably. One in particular cost both the storekeeper and his son their lives when the storekeeper attempted to produce a gun against a drawn gun but had to rack the slide to chamber a round. Of course, the bad guy would have none of that and proceeded to riddle the storekeeper, then killing his adult son for good measure.

It's all in the mindset and training. Carry a wheel gun, a bottom-feeder or a belt-fed side feeder just as soon as one comes along. But, be the best you can be with what you carry. Do carry a spare mag. Besides spare ammo, spare mags are sometimes needed to clear a stoppage, particularly the double-feed, a stoppage likely to result in a high-anxiety situation.

Revolver fans must know how to reload in high stress situations without getting a shell casing under the extractor star. Do that and it's all over---they win.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazer View Post
I think it comes down to what the folks see on TV. Or whatever form of "fiction" or "reality" they believe is what they need....not what they can actually "use well".
Case in point, my daughter, she is in her 30's and asked for a handgun, she's never owned one of her own. So I said, SURE! What do you want? She said "a pink one", took me about a year to get over that and to seriously get down to finding out what to get her. I brought over a S&W Mod 36, a Glock sub in 9mm, a Beretta Storm sub-compact in 9mm and basically she dismissed the revolver completely, wouldn't have anything to do with it....because it wasn't "cool". Ended up she liked the "feel" of the Glock, she couldn't even rack the slide, but had to have it....THIS is why revolvers are out of style, it is the mindset...she doesn't shoot but MAYBE once a year and SHOULD honestly have the S&W Mod 36....but at least she has a gun now, her husband promised to work with her building up her strength so she could at least chamber a round!
It's been a year now, she hasn't ever shot the Glock. Or anything else. I still have the S&W Mod 36....she'll see the light one day.
I've seen this same scenario a LOT at a local gun shop, salesman sells someone a handgun, semi auto, the person can't even operate it! Women can't work the slide....they sell it to them anyways. I have to wonder how many folks that purchase these weapons actually know how to use them! From what I've seen, not many, they purchase what they see is used on TV and folks that talk-up how awful and useless a revolver is these days, that "volume of fire" seems to be what you want....not hitting what you AIM at...just throw enough rounds down range quickly and chances are your target will get hit!
When I worked at Gun Shops I saw guys buying guns they "thought" their Wife should have. WRONG. You should let her try before you buy. I saw a few ladies that couldn't work a slide. I saw others that hated the Recoil of the 38 Snub. We had a lady in a CCW class that could not work the slide on a LCP. He said that's OK I will load it for her. I told him no, find one she can work or pick a Revolver. He didn't want to here it. I quit teaching the Class at that point. I told the owner to handle it. I quit. I'm not going to be responsible for people that know it all.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
And neither may 17 rounds. That's why I choose to play by the odds, not arm myself for Armageddon every time I leave the house.
We should all carry what we are comfortable with and prefer.

that said, the only writer I know who has compiled the biggest 'data base' of both civilian and LEO shootings is Mr. Ayoob. In his writings, you'll find that there are *many* cases of LEO's and armed private citizens who either lost a gunfight, or would have lost the fight, because they had, or had they had a 5-6 shot wheelgun. What's more telling, is that Ayoob cannot find one single case of someone armed with an 8 shot autoloader (like a 1911 or model 39) who lost a gunfight due to running the gun dry.

It seems that 8-9 shots meets a certain threshold that 5-6 doesn't, AND the super fast reload of a magazine change (over even a speed loader) keeps the good guy in the fight well enough over a wheelgun.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:22 AM
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Or... Oh crud. Got to move! I'm going to get blasted with **** coming out to the side of that thing!!!
YOU are talking about the hot brass getting thrown all over? Not to mention picking them up for us reloaders being a royal PIA. No you don't see many snubs at the range, maybe it's a case of them only being shown to bad guys? Our steel challenge group has the occasional snub day. I think about any serious collector/owner will have examples of each & a SS Sig 239 (in stainless) is a favorite of mine, BUT it can in no way replace the ol J frame snub.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:34 AM
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For me absolutely not (I'd rather have a snub K over any single stack); for the population as a whole; perhaps it hasn't killed them but it has cut into that market, no doubt.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bronco45 View Post
I still love my Kahrs. I have 5 and have only had a moments trouble with one, at break in. I carry the CM9 with 7 rds and a trigger that feels like the finest S&W DA trigger ever honed at 6 pounds. Carry a spare mag with 7 and love the sights. Not until the 640 Pro did Smith make a serious sight for a belly gun under 2.25"s The gun 20ozs loaded with 124 grain 9mms that out shine the 38 +P greatly. I have many wheel guns of several makes and frame sizes but the CM9 in summer and CW45 in winter are my go to guns. 10 yrs of Kahrs and I have found them to be utterly reliable.
I completely agree on the Kahr's trigger being very similar to a great DA trigger job. I find if I need the upmost concealability, I will grab my PM9 which to date (10 years) has never given me any problems.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:40 AM
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We should all carry what we are comfortable with and prefer.

that said, the only writer I know who has compiled the biggest 'data base' of both civilian and LEO shootings is Mr. Ayoob. In his writings, you'll find that there are *many* cases of LEO's and armed private citizens who either lost a gunfight, or would have lost the fight, because they had, or had they had a 5-6 shot wheelgun. What's more telling, is that Ayoob cannot find one single case of someone armed with an 8 shot autoloader (like a 1911 or model 39) who lost a gunfight due to running the gun dry.

It seems that 8-9 shots meets a certain threshold that 5-6 doesn't, AND the super fast reload of a magazine change (over even a speed loader) keeps the good guy in the fight well enough over a wheelgun.
That's why I like to carry extra ammo and a New York Reload.
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Old 07-26-2017, 09:43 AM
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That's why I like to carry extra ammo and a New York Reload.
the New York reload mitigates the capacity and slow reload of the revolver.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:09 AM
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DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER?  
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Originally Posted by Arik View Post
Just like the case where a lady shot her intruder 5 times with a J frame and nothing happened. Luckily for her, he didn't know she was out of ammo and decided to leave instead of getting shot a 6th time

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All I would say is that no one is going to walk off after taking 5 shots COM with appropriate ammo.

I can guarantee you that no one will walk if they take 5 of my Buffalo Bore JHPs to the center of the torso.

Those 5 rounds must have been non lethal hits. Don
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:15 AM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER?  
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Originally Posted by federali View Post
Besides spare ammo, spare mags are sometimes needed to clear a stoppage, particularly the double-feed, a stoppage likely to result in a high-anxiety situation.

A double-feed is the one semi-auto stoppage that I worry about most.
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Old 07-26-2017, 10:31 AM
Arik Arik is offline
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DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER? DID THE SINGLE STACK 9MM KILL THE CARRY REVOLVER?  
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All I would say is that no one is going to walk off after taking 5 shots COM with appropriate ammo.

I can guarantee you that no one will walk if they take 5 of my Buffalo Bore JHPs to the center of the torso.

Those 5 rounds must have been non lethal hits. Don
Nothing is guaranteed. Like the female cop who took a 357 round to the heart, killed her attacker and is still alive today! Extremely lucky for sure. Probably not something that could be repeated but certainly not guaranteed

"
Officer Lim was followed by a gangbanger wanting to steal her car.  When she pulled into her driveway and exited the car, he shoved a .357 Magnum at her from about five feet away and pulled the trigger.  He didn’t miss.  In Officer Lim’s own words, the .357 bullet hit her “just left center of my chest, it went through my chest and out my back, nicked my diaphragm, my liver, my intestine, shattered my spleen, put a hole in the base of my heart, and left a tennis-ball-sized hole in my back as it exited.  It knocked me back into my car door.”

Officer Lim fired at the gangbanger and as he ran she pursued him around her car and fired three more shots at him, hitting him in the shoulder, the back, and the base of the neck.  And that ended the fight.

Peter Soulis hit Tim Palmer with 22 rounds of .40 S&W before Palmer finally stopped.  Jared Reston was hit with 7 rounds of .45 ACP and never did stop, he won that fight.  Richard Blackburn was hit with five .357 Magnums and still managed to shoot and kill the officer who he was fighting with

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Old 07-26-2017, 10:42 AM
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American1776 American1776 is offline
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All I would say is that no one is going to walk off after taking 5 shots COM with appropriate ammo.

I can guarantee you that no one will walk if they take 5 of my Buffalo Bore JHPs to the center of the torso.

Those 5 rounds must have been non lethal hits. Don
There are many documented cases of people absorbing multiple COM hits with .357 magnum, .45acp, even .44 magnum and 00 buckshot, and still going on to fight (and even kill or maim) the one shooting them.

Look at the case from Illinois, Sgt. Grammins, who fire more than 40 rounds of .45 JHP at an armed bank robber, hitting the suspect 7 times in the torso. It took 3 shots to the head to stop the guy.

Or, the tragic case of Trooper Mark Coates, who shot his attacker 5 times in the torso with a .357 magnum, (winchester silver tip magnums). The attacker then shot Coates in the side with a .22 revolver, killing him.

Listen to the interview by Bob Stasche, Chicago PD. He recounts gun fights wherein he and his partner shot suspects multiple times with .45 colt hollowpoints and .38 spl. hollowpoints, with the suspects still trying to kill the officers. His partner emptied his .45 colt revolver into the chest of one attacker, then emptied his 38 spl into the mans back, and the man still advanced with a butcher knife.


These are just a few documented cases where 5,6,7 or even more rounds to the chest didn't work.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:05 AM
Arik Arik is offline
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I'll take it one step further. There have been plenty of people who survived being shot by machine guns, documented cases of insurgents in Iraq taking multiple hits from a 50BMG before stopping. And one man even survived TWO atomic bombs and their fallout......and lived into his 80s

So while Buffalo Bore maybe better than something else it's certainly not guaranteed
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:20 AM
mj2008 mj2008 is offline
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It seems more people are gravitating to the single stack auto loaders but killed the compact revolver? No way! You have Colt back manufacturing a six shot double action revolver, and Kimber selling revolvers and of course Smith and Ruger. Revolvers are going to be around a long time. For myself I prefer to carry a revolver compared to the slim autos. I'll take the reliability and ease of my revolvers over the extra shot or two.
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