I shoot a lot. I own a business that manufacturers Firearms Accessories, so I am at the range shooting at least once or twice a week. When I shoot I am often shooting for accuracy. I never really spent much time trying to shoot any of my light J Frames (Airweights, Ti, Scandium, etc) for accuracy sake. I honestly also haven't shot my J Frames much in the last few years.

I have this big bunch of old Wadcutter ammo from the 1980s made by 3-D Ammo laying around. Last week when I was heading to the range I said to myself I really got shoot some of this stuff up. I thought it would be fun to play around with my little 38s to see what I could do accuracy wise. I was very surprised.

I dusted off my old M442 Airweight and M&P340. I shot a total of 10 groups in my last two visits between these guns. Here are some for my groups over the last two weeks.

All Groups were fired at 10 yards, Offhand, Double Action only (obviously), 5 rounds (full cylinder), 3-D Brand Ammo 147gr Wadcutters 1980s Production:

PLEASE POST YOUR AIRWEIGHT GROUPS!


The Best group in the last two weeks came from my old M442 Airweight



My M&P340



A couple of more groups from my M442






Don't let the sub 2" barrel fool you. If I can shoot these groups with 1980s production off brand ammo, you can rest assured these guns are extremely accurate. So let's see what you can do!

642-1, stock except for Spegel boot grips, PMC 132gr FMJ, 10yds, 5 rounds, standing, off-hand, 2-hand grip, firing as quick as I could get a sight picture. The white rectangle is a 3x5 mailing label.

Attached Images

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Practice,practice,practice,and more practice with the airweight's.

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Maybe some more practice & more modern ammo you'll get better.

Every so often a customer challenges and beats me to a match shooting at a standard bullseye target at 25 yds. with a 640. Sound tough? Now try it offhand, strong hand only. I too am amazed at the results. It is not the gun, it's the trigger puller.

Good shooting! I've carried some sort of J frame ever since starting my LEO career in 1968. My current EDC is the 340PD and I've learned to stage the trigger and achieve almost the same accuracy. Don't sell these little guns short, they're plenty accurate if you're willing to put in the work.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

I traded my 442 off because of what happened with my friend's 442. We only shot 38+P out of them. Well after maybe 10000 rounds the frame had issues due to the torque of our +P loads. It was not reparable. We both migrated over to the SS 640 after that.

The guy I traded it to couldn't shoot it worth a darn. I said it takes work. He traded it off 2 days later.


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Practicing with an Airweight is not my idea of a good time. Verify that it shoots, get a concept of how you shoot it, where the bullets go at close range meaning point blank up to no more than ten yards, clean it, carry it, avoid shooting it again. If you're a Bob Munden-type and want to do trick shots, great. Otherwise, why abuse your hands with these things? They are not target pistols.

Massad Ayoob, among others, has described these as designed to be "shot a little and carried a lot". I have no argument with that philosophy.

Accuracy alone isn't a surprise with a 2" barrel. Groups though, well maybe in slow fire... OP's results are impressive.

But I like to do one handed double or triple tap drills within 7 yards. In my mind this is the most practical training for a snub.
Let's just say the results are not 1.5" groups. COM hits, yes.

Since an Airweight 642 & 638 is what I carry daily, I need to know I can hit what I aim at, so I disagree with Ayoob. Airweights can be fun to shoot. When I go to the range, I usually shoot at least 100 rounds so I install a set of Pachmayr Compacs for most of the range session, then put my Altamont Boots grips on for the last 20 rounds or so. I wear bifocals nowadays so shooting tight groups isn't as easy as it used to be but I can still keep them in a 3" circle at 10 yards.

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I too completely disagree with Ayoob on this. Any gun you are going to carry, you need to train with REGULARLY. To me that means weekly. But it should be at least monthly for anybody. If you are going to carry a gun, you better know how to use it, and use it well.

A gun that is NOT easy to shoot well, like a j frame snubby, requires even more practice. Definitely NOT less! How can a guy like Ayoob recommend not shooting the gun you carry???

I have always said the absolute worst first gun someone could buy is a 38 snubby. It it one of the hardest guns to learn how to shoot well. If you re a new shooter it is also one of the worst guns to shoot first. A nice 22lr K Frame or Ruger MKII semi-auto is great to start with. Even a full sized 9mm is a hundred times better than a snubby to begin a new shooter with.

What could be worse than a harsh-recoiling super lightweight 2" barreled .38 revolver with a 14lb DA trigger to learn to shoot with? Nothing!

I have never shot my snubbies with a nice big grip installed on them. I bet you with those, all my groups will look like the first one I posted.

It would be great if people would stop misinterpreting Ayoob's statement. He never said not to practice with lightweight snubs. He said they were designed to be "shot a little and carried a lot", which is a lot different than saying not to practice with it. He advocates practicing with lightweight snubs, and has even written about using them when shooting qualification courses of fire.

This was when I first got my M&P340 and was trying every defense load that struck my fancy.



I put at least 100rds/month thru my EDC. This is after 8,000 hours of carry and 3,000+ rounds. Not as pretty, but I'm starting to get comfortable with it.



I carry Rem .357mag 125 Golden Sabers in it now. I practice with a 125 +P handload and finish most every session with a couple cylinders of light magnum handloads that duplicate my carry load (125 @ 1100fps in this 2").

The magnums aren't fun but learning to shoot an airweight snubby in DA has little to do with recoil. After practicing with 50 rds of +P, the first cylinder of magnums goes to the same spot. I'm a little more apprehensive with the second cylinder full, but not so's I miss.

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Carry.."hope" isn't a strategy

I'm not posting any pictures of my groups. I need a lot more work first.

I have been practicing with my 637 quite a lot, but find it hard to shoot. I did discover that I shoot it a lot better with a REALLY FIRM grip. And I turned it over for a trigger workup today.

I bought a 642 with a Crimson Laser grip yesterday. It has a little better trigger, and I do shot better groups with it. The laser also makes it more accurate beyond 7 yards.

My best shooting snubbie is my Kimber K6S, but it weighs a lot more than the Airweights. Especially importamt when walking my dog in gym shorts.

Fortunately, I like shooting them, and practice often. I want to shoot the best that I am able. The time may come that the Airweight is the gun I brought with me.

I practice with my 442s often. The one with Hogue Tamer Grips gets shot more but, they both get Range time.

Attached Images

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Two Handguns every day

I've shot this:


From 'bout this far away (I'm on the left):


With this:


It's also my everyday carry:

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Keep on Chooglin'

"Shot a little and carried a lot" is kinda hard to misinterpret. I currently have two J frames and shoot them every range session regardless of what else I may be shooting.

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HM;
with all that time at the range you should suck it up and get better groups.............
just joking.

Got to love that old 3-D ammo..........
I am saving my last box of 148 wc for something.....??
It was great ammo back in the day for 38 and 357 Magnum.

I also have one box of "Star" double HB 148 (146?) grain lead target
ammo that is very accurate out of my M49 38.

I have yet to find a "Factory round" 158gr lead bullet that can match
the accuracy of the 148gr out of my snub nose be it RN or swc.

Have fun.

You left off "designed" at the start of your Ayoob quote.

I think ContinentalOp has the correct interpretation of Ayoob's intent. We all know people who have bought a handgun, shot it a few times (or not at all), and put it in the nightstand drawer. Plenty of evidence from the impressive groups and round counts here that J frames will not only stand up to a lot of shooting, but are capable of impressive accuracy as well. Thousands of rounds down range speak well for the design of J frames.

To my knowledge, Ayoob has always advocated regular practice with your carry gun whatever it is.

Good shooting! I've found my 637 to be accurate also. They do take some practice though!

I was wondering how I would fare with my pre-lock 317 Airlite 22lr 8-shot that has a 14lb trigger pull.

I never shoot my revolvers single action even if they have an exposed hammer. Might as well just bob them all!


8 shots of 22lr from 10 yards offhand Double Action Only. Under 2", I'm pretty freaking happy with that. Especially considering the 14lb trigger pull!






Might as well show you a pic when she is all dressed up!

After seeing some of those targets, I'm glad I didn't post mine.

Nobody is showing off -- are they ???

One thing I like about my 351c is that I can shoot 50 or 100 rounds without pain (except to my wallet) and I can shoot what I carry because the good stuff doesn't cost more, it's just harder to find. I got a case of Speer Gold Dots for about $13.50 a box.

432PD is a sweet shooter.

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I shoot my 360J often but maybe not a lot. When ever I go to the range. About 4 cylinders of lower loaded semi wad cutters then 2 cylinders of duty ammo. ( either 38SPL 158+p or Hornady Critical Defense). Just shooting at 21-25 ft. Max distance in my house. These loads are a handfull but not painfull. I have no problem hanging on and hitting disabling shots on a silhouette target rapid fire. I think recoil of these light weight revolvers in 38spl are exaggerated. Prob not so much in 357

UPDATE: I took both the new 642 and my 637 to the range today. The 642 has Crimson laser grips, and the armorer at the range just tuned up the 637's trigger,

I shot the best groups EVER for a snubby, or any other short barrel. The 637 did 8" groups at 15 yards. The Crimson laser helped me get the same with the 642 at 20 yards.

That won't match what some of you can do, but for me, it's a personal best. Of course, I've only been shooting snubbys for six months. I've worked hard, and now I'm starting to get where I want to be.

As an added bonus, the work I put into the snubbys makes me that much better with the bigger guns.

My 37 is an old old one,probably from the '60s.The blueing is worn off but beauty being in the eyes of the beholder,mine is beautiful.I've owned a few snubbies before but they all had a terrible trigger in DA(in sd,you don't care about sweet SA;all you need is a good to sweet nice DA).I got rid of them all.
But that one is a keeper.Nice DA and SA pull that's more like a sweetly tuned K frame.The thing shoots 154gr soft lead cast bullets in a 4'' circle at 15 yds at a good vel which is non +P( a little over 900fps;sorry,I had the load chronoed only in a 6''bbl;might come out of the 2'' at around 775-800fps).
Yep it does kick a little but I shoot between 15 and 20K rds a year so I kinda got ''recoilproofed'' after all these years.
All this to say that 2'' bbls ain't any less accurate than longer bbls,it just takes more care to keep that tiny front post aligned properly!
Qc

Exactly, keep shooting the snubbys, that's what me a good shooter. If you can shoot a revolver with a 12-14 lb trigger pull well, you can shoot anything well.

Start in closer though. It is hard to work at 15 yards to start. Work in the 5 to 10 yards range to start.

OP HERE:

I shot some more J Frame Groups today. This time out of a 3" Model 60 Lady Smith that I picked up a couple of weeks ago. How about these This gun is a JOY to shoot. So much softer shooting than my Airweights because it is all steel! I used some crazy old Peter's 147gr Wadcutter ammo.

5 shot groups. 10 Yards. DA Only Offhand. Both groups are under 1.5"

When I was a young fellow in the early 70s a friend had a PP in .22 and I had a Model 36 2-inch. At any reasonable range I could keep right up with him with my Model 36 using Star wadcutters. The gun could shoot better than I could hold it. In fact, I think the 36 actually outshot the PP .22 at the ranges we shot at (generally less than 25 yards).

A bit later I found an older but little used 2-inch Model 37 somewhere and was able to buy it with the idea of practicing with the 36 and carrying the 37. It didn't take long to find out the 37 was just as accurate with the Stars as the 36. I used the two for quite a while, the 36 with Pachmayr Compacs (which were a "new" item about then) and the 37 with factory stocks and a black T-grip. Still have both guns but don't use them any longer as since I have come to prefer an Airweight Centennial if I am going to use a J-frame. I don't know anyone who has been around them who has any serious accuracy concerns about Airweight J-frames.

Many moons back, a friend of mine owned a Ransom rest and a private range. Between the two of us, we owned 11 S&W revolvers, J,K and N-frames, and I do believe one of them a then-newfangled L-frame, 2" to 6" barrels, all chambered for .38 or .357. Just for giggles, we spent a Saturday shooting 25-yard Ransom-rested groups using a .38 target wadcutter load.

Now, don't get me wrong -- some individuals revolvers were more accurate than others, the overall champ a beat-up, clapped-out Model 14 I owned. But the AVERAGES for all of those revolvers, big frame or small, long barrel or short, were so close as to not be worth mentioning.

Anyone claiming one frame size, or one barrel length, is mechanically more accurate than another is blowing smoke.

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Pisgah

I have to agree the snubs aren't quite as much fun to shoot as the 1911s but I still enjoy them. The 638 I sent my daughter last week I shot fairly well for an old fossil with tri-focals. Picked up a BG38 Bodyguard last week, that little guy is going to take a lot of practice or I've got to find a bigger barn to aim at!

I took my 442 out Monday. I shot with the stock boot grip. 50 +P and 50 standard. 21' got a ok group. The boot grip wasn't bad either. I like shooting my J-Frames. I was more accurate with the +P ammo. I could cover the group with my hand.

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Two Handguns every day

Here's a target at 7 yards with a 442 shooting Hornady 110 standard pressure FTX. As you can see, it's hitting a little bit low... LOL

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Centennial Every Day

I just got 642 enhanced action with wooden grips...shot it right away-sweet trigger, but pretty tough recoil. Put Hogue combat rubber grips on (just a hair longer than boot grip)....I shot better and felt less recoil when I shot it again this morning