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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 08-15-2017, 02:22 PM
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During the 1970's when I was in my late teens/early 20's, my first handgun was a 2 1/2 inch Model 19.

I loved that gun, despite the fact that the factory grips couldn't successfully help me balance the gun in my hand to the point where it felt like a natural grip. But, I digress.

During those years I corresponded with Jeff Cooper who, in a letter I have long lost, told me that the Model 19 was really never intended to be a full-time .357 Magnum shooter and that the gun would likely age before it's time if I shot only .357 mag out of it. Stick with .38 special in it, he wrote. I followed his advice and sometime during the next 30 years I sold that gun off, unfortunately.

A long time has passed since those days, and I got to wondering about the wisdom he imparted - and if it held up to be true. Since the Model 19 is now a long-time out of production, do any of you guys who still own them (and shoot them) agree with Colonel Cooper's belief that, when it comes to .357 Magnum, the Model 19 should be shot seldom, and that a strong presence should be held up by the .38 special.

I'd be very interested in your comments and opinions, and thank you very much.

Rich
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:29 PM
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Cooper had the benefit of a vast database of experience.

I've never felt I made a mistake by following his recommendations.

My 2 1/2" M19-4 is still going strong after thousands of rounds: mostly 38, occasionally 357
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:52 PM
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My 19-3 gets mostly .38 Specials because it's a range gun and I have a 28-2 for heavy duty shooting. Also at 73, I'm somewhat recoil adverse, although I don't mind my P-64, IJ-70 Makarov, or CZ 82 in 9x18 where others complain about them.
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Old 08-15-2017, 03:58 PM
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It's best if shooting Magnum loads in a#19 to stick with the heavier weight bullets. 148 or 158 grains. This is less stressful on the forcingcone. Mostly use 38 Specials. Fine revolvers. Excellent double action performers. Sonora
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:46 PM
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The wise man told you correct. I think you would have to shoot a lot and a lot like 5000 or 10000 357 to wear one out. My 19-3 from 1978 is still going strong I shoot maybe 60/40 but always 158 grain in 357. It's those darn 125 grain hollow points that are 19 killers.
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Old 08-15-2017, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by daddio202 View Post
The wise man told you correct. I think you would have to shoot a lot and a lot like 5000 or 10000 357 to wear one out. My 19-3 from 1978 is still going strong I shoot maybe 60/40 but always 158 grain in 357. It's those darn 125 grain hollow points that are 19 killers.
I agree with that.^^^^ Bullet weight plays a big role in my mind.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:57 PM
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I always agreed with that my self. My first S&W was a 4" Model 19. It was no trouble to shoot .357 Magnum rounds, the recoil was not anything that troubled me, but I took care to not beat it up with too much full house magnum shooting. About 16 years after I bought it I blew it up using handloads that somebody didn't make correctly.

I have since replaced it with another 4" and a 2.5" Model 19 and I treat them carefully, mostly .38 Special or +P, and no unknown handloads from gun shows any more!

I can shoot heavy duty magnum loads out of a variety of L frames or my Model 27 Classic. Why beat up a lovely K frame?
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:25 PM
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William "Bill" Jordan of the Border Patrol was the moving force in convincing the then president of S&W to manufacture the Model 19. Jordan conceived it as the ideal Policy duty revolver. From the very beginning his intent was a gun light enough to be more carryable, but strong enough to shoot the .357 Magnum when the situation called for the extra power. The Model 19 was never intended, nor designed, to be a full-time .357 shooter, but to be shot mostly with .38 Spl. for training and practice! Jeff Cooper was absolutely correct in what he said, and back in the 1950s to 1970s most did not question this!
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:21 PM
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I've read everything I could find on this exact subject. I found the following link to be helpful.

Use of Magnum Loads in S&W Model 19 and Other K-Frame Magnums

The model 19 is the best revolver S&W ever made.

It is the perfect size for the perfect caliber.

It is in my opinion, the revolver. The quintessential revolver.

That being said it was always designed to practice with .38 and to carry with .357. Everything has its inherent limitations, the model 19 is no exception, that doesn't mean it is not the best revolver S&W produced. This is not a design flaw, it was an intentional compromise, and the result is the perfect S&W for its intended purpose.

Last edited by Toblerra; 08-15-2017 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:30 PM
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All of my 357's which are all old classics only see my 38spl reloads as I shoot them a lot and do expect them to last longer than me. If I need big horsepower I have other goodies for that.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:51 PM
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M19s are like old Muscle Cars, to be driven sedately most of the time. But every once in a while ya just gotta turn 'em loose!!!
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:59 AM
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My first gun was this new S&W Model 19-3, Cost - $159. April 1974. I shot maybe 50 38 Specials through it and the rest were .357 mags. I started to reload magnums and liked the heavy powerful loads. About 500 test rounds a week with several bullet weights and powders combos. In other words I shot the piss out of that Model 19 so much so that the forceing cone had a crack in it. I replaced the barrel twice over time.

She is now retired, still shoots fine, new rear sights, but still a fine gun and my first. I am a S&W 686 fan and shoot the bullets that came out of that research trial time. I have favorite recipes to this day thanks to my Model 19.

I even use the same grip from the 19 to my 686-4.




Last edited by Mehutch; 08-16-2017 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:07 AM
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Jeff Cooper wrote that the six-inch barreled M-19 was a fine trail gun, giving .357 power if needed, but weighing less than the M-27 and other .357's.

Bill Jordan told me in person that he envisioned the Combat Magnum to fire just 10-15% .357 ammo.

I suspect that Buffalo Bore's heavy .38 loads will work very well in a M-19/66,
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:45 AM
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I would have to agree that if Jeff Cooper said it when it comes to firearms you can write it in stone much of what he and Bill Jordan wrote still hold true and I remember when the 40 S&W first became all the rage I thought back of reading about some old timer way back comeing up with tne idea of let's see what was it oh yea the 41 magnum as a great police load .
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
William "Bill" Jordan of the Border Patrol was the moving force in convincing the then president of S&W to manufacture the Model 19. Jordan conceived it as the ideal Policy duty revolver. From the very beginning his intent was a gun light enough to be more carryable, but strong enough to shoot the .357 Magnum when the situation called for the extra power. The Model 19 was never intended, nor designed, to be a full-time .357 shooter, but to be shot mostly with .38 Spl. for training and practice! Jeff Cooper was absolutely correct in what he said, and back in the 1950s to 1970s most did not question this!
This is the history from the mid 1950s..............................^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Chapter II ...... in the mid- to late 60s we began to see hollow point ammo hit the streets in Police guns and the development of light 125 grain 'hot rodded" .357 magnum ammo.

It was considered the best "one shot stop" ammo of the time........ but over the next decade there were instances of a steady diet of them cracking the forcing cone on Model 19s... (note the thinner flat spot on the bottom of the barrel).... not huge numbers but enough to warrant concern.

Now that replacement barrels are no longer readily available... most of us are shooting +P .38 and/or heavier (135gr and up) loads out of our 19/66s.

In response to the "issue" S&W developed and introduced; in about 1980, the L frame 686/586 .... with a heaver/full forcing cone but retaining the grip frame and trigger reach of the K-frame....... a gun actually designed to shoot the hot .357s of the day.

Ammo design is also light years ahead of the ammo from the 60/70s so we aren't giving up much, if anything, in performance if we choose to not use hot 125gr .357s in our old K-frames. By the way most will tell you that todays "hot" 125gr. loads are not as hot at those sold to "Police/Law Enforcement only" in the 70s.

Last edited by BAM-BAM; 08-16-2017 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:08 PM
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I believe the Model 19 was, overall, the best revolver ever made by S&W or any other manufacturer (sorry Python fans). I love my 19-3 as I shoot this handgun better than any other handgun I've ever shot. If the unthinkable happened, and one of my loved ones lives depended upon one or two shots from a handgun, I'd want my 19-3 in my hands.

I too follow the old adage of only shooting a few .357 Mags through the 19 with the vast majority being .38 Specials. I'd do that with any .357 Mag revolver because I like shooting .38 Spl's over .357 Mags for recreation. My 19-3 is loaded for personal defense with 158 grain JHP .357 Mags and I shoot enough of those to keep familiar with the more stout round.

I do love a fine, mirror black, well made "Combat Magnum."

S&W Model 19-3




Thanks for looking at my favorite revolver!

God bless,
Birdgun

Last edited by Birdgun; 08-16-2017 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 08-17-2017, 01:49 PM
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Back in the day, when I first started in LE my department issued the M19 and had for years. We practiced and qualified with .38 Wadcutters and "Familiarized" with about 12-18 rounds of our duty round per year. Our duty round was the Federal 125 gr JHP, an awsome load. Around 1980 someone decided we needed to qualify with our duty ammo. So that meant at least 100 round per quarterly qual. Guns started getting beat up. Mine eventually went out of time and has some forcing cone errosion, so I was issued a Ruger Security Six that the department had bought aa a stop gap measure. (Rugers were solid pistols ans would fit in the K frame holster. The department started phasing in the 686 around 1982.
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Old 08-18-2017, 09:59 PM
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Like many of you, I shoot .357's through my k frames maybe once or twice a year. Just cause I love the round, sound and fireball. Previously I'd never taken the time to explore the .38 +P round until recently, when I purchased a box by accident as it was mixed in the wrong spot in the ammo cabinet at Walmart. It was a blessing in disguise though, as I thoroughly enjoy shooting those +P rounds! Just enough bark and bite to make it fun and still hone the skills. I couldn't believe that I'd gone so long without trying them. .38+P is just the perfect blend/practice round to me. Love the k frame revolvers with it!

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Old 08-18-2017, 10:33 PM
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I'm of a different mindset . I only shoot 357 mag handloads in my 19-2 / 6" barrel . For yrs I shoot 180 gr cast bullets on top of a max charge of W296 (current load data ). It's as tight today as the day I bought it . I finally decided to back down to a good midrange 357 loaf using a 158gr bullet . I truly feel it's the best 357 ever made , and I've had quite a few .
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:16 PM
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The K Magnums are great guns, Their weakness is not the frame but the thin spot on the forcing cone 6 O clock position.

IIRC they worked fine with the old 148-158 grain magnum loads but when lighter 110-125 grain Magnum loads came on the scene cracked forcing cones at the 6 O clock position began to surface as a result of the bullet leaving the cylinder earlier .
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Old 08-19-2017, 01:58 PM
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The K Magnums are great guns, Their weakness is not the frame but the thin spot on the forcing cone 6 O clock position.

IIRC they worked fine with the old 148-158 grain magnum loads but when lighter 110-125 grain Magnum loads came on the scene cracked forcing cones at the 6 O clock position began to surface as a result of the bullet leaving the cylinder earlier .
Yep. That's exactly right. Thank yew.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:40 PM
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I keep my full .357 loads(166gr at a little over 1300fps)for my L and N frame.My K frames get .38spl+p.If Mr Cooper and Mr Jordan said so,I'll stick to it.Afterall,they knew a lot more than I do.
OP,sorry you lost that letter from Mr Cooper.
Qc

Last edited by Qc Pistolero; 08-20-2017 at 04:23 PM.
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