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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #51  
Old 08-20-2017, 01:05 PM
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It takes much more time to build a good reputation than it does to destroy it. Especially since the internet developed.

Good luck with getting the problem resolved.

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  #52  
Old 08-20-2017, 01:30 PM
gman51 gman51 is offline
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S&W really has no option other than replace your gun with another gun because the frame is where the serial number is stamped.
They could weld it and grind it smooth but I don't see them spending that much time and then you still notice what they did.
LOL Don't shoot me, what am I worried for you sent the gun back, but S&W might just put a new one piece grip on it so the crack isn't visible. They might figure out of sight out of mind.
All I can say is I sure am glad my 627-5 wasn't a factory shoulda been rejected gun. S&W isn't the only one having problems with new gun problems. All a person can hope for is the CS will make it right with the customer. Like has been stated the companies are just trying to get as many guns out the door as possible while guns are still selling like crazy.
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  #53  
Old 08-20-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhnttrpp View Post
He didn't say he saw it. He said "I can easily imagine"
Exactly.

I think Arik is saying people are throwing out assumptions about the workings of S&W without witnessing any of it.
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  #54  
Old 08-20-2017, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Triggernosis View Post
OK, that's it, I've heard enough about poor quality from S&W the past few years ........ I'm buying ONE more S&W, a 3rd generation gun, probably a 3913, and I'm done! ......... One more - that's it!

Just out of curiosity, do you know how many posters / members have said, "Just one more, I'm done!" ? You are delusional, off your meds, or simply kidding yourself, and lying to us. I made that statement more than once. Since December 2016 I have only bought four more good deals -- 2 were S&W revolvers. I did sell two Ruger #1 rifles, though.

Don't disappoint your self. You will buy more, now go in peace and accept that.
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  #55  
Old 08-20-2017, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Brown View Post
Maybe Ruger hired away all of Smith & Wesson's experienced Barrel Fitters?
Was that before or after the many Redhawk barrels fell off?
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  #56  
Old 08-20-2017, 08:37 PM
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I am sorry but I cannot advise anyone on this forum as to the QC at Smith and Wesson or the new Remlins vs. the old Marlin rifles. I have been warned by the mods not to do this so I will refrain from it. Thank you kindly.
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  #57  
Old 08-20-2017, 08:42 PM
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I am sorry but I cannot advise anyone on this forum as to the QC at Smith and Wesson or the new Remlins vs. the old Marlin rifles. I have been warned by the mods not to do this so I will refrain from it. Thank you kindly.
So why post it? What did that accomplish....or help?

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Old 08-20-2017, 09:48 PM
Triggernosis Triggernosis is offline
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So why post it? What did that accomplish....or help?
Exactly. And who is he - does he work for S&W or something?
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  #59  
Old 08-20-2017, 10:27 PM
llowry61 llowry61 is offline
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Interesting thread and many salient points have been made. I will add my thoughts as well. First of all no QC is perfect, both the manufacturer and the consumer know this. That is why companies have warranties that are generally commensurate with the items cost. High cost items tend to have more extensive warranties. Warranties help the customer offset the risk incurred when making the purchase and help the manufacturer differentiate their products in the market place.

With all of that said, the question becomes, how does the company resolve issues when they arise ?

I can tell you that I have sent in guns made in the 80's and S&W has done warranty work no questions asked.

To me that is a positive.

I don't buy guns with the locks, so I haven't made a new production revolver purchase recently. I have bought quite a few plastic guns, both rifles and pistols and no issues.

I am sure the company measures returns, warranty work cycle time, defect trends and reacts to manufacturing processes running outside the prescribed control limits.

What does it all mean? Companies produce bad items and the good companies take care of their mistakes. From my experience, S&W is doing that.

Another variable that has to be considered is that CS is controlled by people. Sometimes they screw up the CS process like the poster who has a pistol on the way back for a 3rd time. That is a bad deal and one that hopefully gets escalated to an executive to make it right. I know in our company multiple disputes or complaints go up the chain for that reason. Upper level management has the authority to do what has to be done to protect the companies reputation.

Take care and I hope the individuals who purchased the defective items get them resolved quickly and to their satisfaction.

One other note, if you are buying new you might consider asking the sales person to bring out 2 of the item you wish to purchase. You can then inspect both and choose which one you want. I have done this in the past and have been surprised at the difference in wood grain checkering etc. They don't always have 2, but it is worth a try.

L

Last edited by llowry61; 08-20-2017 at 10:39 PM.
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  #60  
Old 08-21-2017, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Pisgah View Post
Judging by what I have read/heard over my past 55 or so years owning and shooting their guns and following their press, I'd say about 1880.

Not saying they haven't had their problems from time to time -- every maker of any sort of mass-produced mechanism can have QC troubles --, but it really seems that every generation decries the "death of quality at S&W"...

It always pays to keep in mind that on this forum, or any other brand-dedicated firearms forum, the participants are the folks most interested in and critical of the product, and the ones most likely to yelp at every problem found, no matter how inconsequential or (in some cases) even imaginary the problem might be. Meanwhile, 10's of 1000's of other owners and users go blissfully on their way, completely unaware that their prized firearms are nothing more than shoddy junk...
Agree 100 percent. I have Smiths from the 1960s forward and I can find small abnormalities on just about all. I think the 1970s and 1980s have the most. Years ago I used to worry about that after reading on these forums but I realized these are mass produced and to expect perfection is folly. If there is a major issue like this crack, Smith will take care of it. I think with modern machining they are better than ever for shooters. Side plates fit better,timing is usually dead on and durability is better than ever. I do not like the lock but I can get past it. Most of the problems then and now do not keep the guns from shooting so many people do not pay attention. Only people like us who are enthusiastic about the guns tend to notice the smaller things.

Dogdoc

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  #61  
Old 08-21-2017, 08:31 AM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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Thanks for taking the hit for the rest of us.
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  #62  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:22 AM
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The OP can't lay all this on S&W, and S&W quality assurance has not changed as much as you'd think, and it's changed for reasons the OP may not have considered. The bottom line is that S&W is running a business and the level of QA is determined by costs versus benefits.

In the 1980s it was the norm for good local gun shops to carefully inspect each new firearm that arrived in the shop - and to reject those firearms that had flaws. When a defect was found the wholesaler or the factory would be called to arrange for a return and replacement. However, most of the time the initial response would be an offer to reduce the price on the gun to very low levels,with a credit going to the shop, who then kept the firearm and sold it. Credible shops would say "no thanks" and return the firearm.

Once the wholesaler or factory got it back their response when the defect was cosmetic or non safety related often wasn't to fix it, but rather to offer it up as a factory second to a department store or other big box type retailer, where they'd use the discounted cost to sell it at a steeply discounted price. Remember, you get what you pay for...

Under that business model, local gun shops charged more for the same model firearm, but you were getting not just the firearm, but also the QA and warranty services from the local gun shop. You could buy with a high degree of confidence that it would be perfect, and if a defect surfaced after the purchase, the LGS's response would be to replace it out of existing stock, and deal with the factory on the return and repair issues, rather than stick the customer with that. If the arm was replaced it was sold as new, if it was factory repaired - and met the shop's inspection criteria, it was then sold as used, offering someone with a really good deal. If it did not meet the shop's inspection criteria it was again rejected and sent back.

Today however, local gun shops have greatly reduced the services they offer with the sale of a new weapon. I've bought firearms in some shops where I'll look at the one on the counter very carefully (since the LGS can no longer be relied on to do a thorough inspection) only to have them bring another one out that is still in the unopened box that they actually plan to sell. Their point is the one on the counter is a display model that has been handled. My point is that's just fine, I'll take the one in the box - but only after I do the same thorough inspection, and if I don't like it you'll go get me another one to inspect.

Also, if I discover a problem, such as severe leading from an improperly cut forcing cone, I'm now the person who has to deal with the return and repair issues, as the LGS is probably going to limit its involvement to giving me the customer service phone number.

In summary, S&W's QA isn't all that much worse than it was in the past. In the past, less than perfect QA was back stopped by an inspection by the LGS. The LGS was aware of QA failures, but those firearms never found their way into customers hands - unless they went via the department store route, and those customers tended to be less discerning and never noticed.

If a customer did notice a defect, he'd bitch to his friends, but it quickly diluted to hearsay and never got much distribution as a credible complaint - and he probably already had a replacement in hand from the LGS, so it wasn't a big deal.

Now, there is no LGS QA backstopping the factory, and the customer is the one stuck dealing with return and repair issues. And that customer can reach hundreds or thousands of people with their complaint of poor quality.

Which of course means that more defects are reported to a wider number of people, which creates the impression that quality is worse than it used to be. It isn't. It's just a case of each defective firearm being more noticeable. And that won't bother S&W enough to improve quality, unless it actually starts resulting in losses of sales that are sufficient to offset the costs of a higher level of QA, and rejection of more firearms before they are shipped.

Finally, in my experience S&W is much better at QA than Ruger, and they have better customer service. And Ruger is lighters ahead of Taurus, where I have doubts that any meaningful level of QA even exists.

Last edited by BB57; 08-21-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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  #63  
Old 08-21-2017, 09:38 AM
Dennismn Dennismn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell420 View Post
Bought a brand new 686 plus at my lgs this month, and noticed the crack in the heel of the grip frame when I removed the factory grips to clean it. Anyone ever see this before? The doesn't appear too deep, and it's going back to S&W for repair. How this got past quality control blows my mind. First new Smith I've bought in 15 years.

Russell420
S&W won't fix it - they will replace it. No Ifs, ands or buts.

The one thing We have to give S&W - they back up their product.

If you look at S&W's product line, I think they have bitten off a bit more than they can chew - to our benefit.

I don't know that I have ever seen so many options and variations available to the public - but that kind of mass production comes with inherent challenges.

It shouldn't happen - but we don't live in a perfect world. Buy, inspect carefully, let S&W know if there is a problem. My experience has been that they will back it up.
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  #64  
Old 08-21-2017, 10:56 AM
white cloud white cloud is offline
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Originally Posted by dogdoc View Post
Agree 100 percent. I have Smiths from the 1960s forward and I can find small abnormalities on just about all. I think the 1970s and 1980s have the most. Years ago I used to worry about that after reading on these forums but I realized these are mass produced and to expect perfection is folly. If there is a major issue like this crack, Smith will take care of it. I think with modern machining they are better than ever for shooters. Side plates fit better,timing is usually dead on and durability is better than ever. I do not like the lock but I can get past it. Most of the problems then and now do not keep the guns from shooting so many people do not pay attention. Only people like us who are enthusiastic about the guns tend to notice the smaller things.
Dogdoc
You are right about the S&Ws from the 1970s and 80s. Those were pretty bad guns. I had an 8-3/8" M-27 that was really bad. I have had bad Rugers too. I must say Ruger customer service is really top notch however. Recently my bought a model 67. It is a very nice pistol. I bought a Remington 700 and two SIGs this year. All very nice guns. I saw a guy on the range break the thumb safety lever off his Kimber 1911. Defects just get through sometimes and you have to be prepared for them.

Last edited by white cloud; 08-21-2017 at 10:57 AM. Reason: can't write complete sentences.
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  #65  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:23 AM
Dave T Dave T is offline
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Arik,

I based my comments about quality on my own personal experience. In 50+ years of handgun shooting I've owned more S&W revolvers than I can remember. The number has to be well over 50 and the majority of them are older guns from the '50s, '60s, and '70s. None of those guns had the problems we're discussing here.

I've owned half a dozen newer (IL, MIM, frame mounted FP) models and at least 4 of them have had problems. I've sold or traded all of them off except for one that I put far too much money into getting it to work. To S&W they were with-in tolerance or spec.

I do not know what the return ratio is now compared the those earlier decades but I do know about the guns I've owned. I will no longer buy a S&W (new or used) with the IL or the frame mounted FP. You and others are obviously free to do as you like but you can't tell me my own experience isn't valid or that it didn't happen.

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  #66  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer1911 View Post
Just out of curiosity, do you know how many posters / members have said, "Just one more, I'm done!" ? You are delusional, off your meds, or simply kidding yourself, and lying to us. I made that statement more than once. Since December 2016 I have only bought four more good deals -- 2 were S&W revolvers. I did sell two Ruger #1 rifles, though.

Don't disappoint your self. You will buy more, now go in peace and accept that.
Amen! Still best product out there especially @ the price point.
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  #67  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:46 AM
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I will agree with those who claim internet communication allows for quality issues to be more easily publicized. However, that doesn't answer whether the quality issues are indeed more prevalent now or not, it's just a theory, and to a lesser extent an excuse.

I personally think the quality issues are more prevalent nowadays. The means of modern production just lends for more issues due to the less hands-on nature, especially when you are striving for certain price points. The numbers game is evidently working out for S&W or they wouldn't be doing the lifetime warranty w/paid postage return.

So I have an opposing theory to the internet communication blowing things out of proportion one. Think of the overall skill/experience level of the average consumer. There are quite a bit of people online who participate in the firearms hobby but are still completely novice when it comes to technical aspects. Now just imagine how many owners are not even serious enough to get online and be active. How much expertise do they have? You can bet S&W is well aware of this too.

So consider the following question: how many quality deficient guns has S&W sold to customers who will never know any better, and therefore never say anything?

It's the opposite question to "how many great guns has S&W made", because I think both questions are very relevant.

Ultimately, it's up to the consumer to make sure they purchase a high quality firearm. Being proficient is part of the hobby. Just how many poor guns are being made or what the percentage is we will never know. What we do know is there are problems being reported and we should use that info to our advantage and learn from it.
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  #68  
Old 08-21-2017, 11:57 AM
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I had a new classic 27 that had a warped frame. Smith gave me the option of sending me another gun or a refund of what I paid for it. I took the money and started only buying used guns 10 years or older. The quality issue seems to be started around 2008ish
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  #69  
Old 09-28-2017, 02:44 PM
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Was just notified today that after the gun spent time in the metallurgy and gunsmithing sections of S&W, they are replacing the frame of my gun under warranty. Should have it back in a couple more weeks (hopefully without anymore issues).
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:44 PM
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I think that they have never been great at getting barrels dead center straight. I have a .357 Magnum 8 3/8 serial 95xxx from the early 50s that the barrel is just a bit off on. I have to move the sights to the right of center to get it on target. Its such a small deviation that it might be hard to actually get it centered. I have a friend with a Model 34-1 and I have a 63 with canted barrels. You really cannot tell by looking at the sights, but you can tell by looking at the barrel/frame area.

A small deviation is hardly perceptible, until you have to move the sights farther to one side or the other than normal to get it sighted in.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell420 View Post
Bought a brand new 686 plus at my lgs this month, and noticed the crack in the heel of the grip frame when I removed the factory grips to clean it. Anyone ever see this before? The doesn't appear too deep, and it's going back to S&W for repair. How this got past quality control blows my mind. First new Smith I've bought in 15 years.

Russell420
Maybe Jimmy Cagney or Bogie conked somebody over
the head with it like , Eddie G. or Lloyd Nolan?
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