Bought a brand new 686 plus at my lgs this month, and noticed the crack in the heel of the grip frame when I removed the factory grips to clean it. Anyone ever see this before? The doesn't appear too deep, and it's going back to S&W for repair. How this got past quality control blows my mind. First new Smith I've bought in 15 years.

Russell420

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That gun should have never left the factory. Sorry for your inconvenience. I hope Smith & Wesson makes everything right.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

By the way, I see you're a long time member, welcome to the Smith & Wesson Forum on your first post!

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

That grip frame should NOT be repaired! Has to be replaced because you can't see how far that flaw runs inside the casting. Make it very clear to the customer service know-nothings that repair is a non-starter.

Good luck.

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Bob.
SWCA 1821

Wow, first time I have seen that. Rediculous!! They should replace the gun, nothing less!!

Wow 12 years and it's first post? Anyhow sorry to see that Crack in a very unusual spot. Should not affect performance but I would think the entire frame will have to be replaced to fix it. Hope they do right by you and replace. Does the gun shoot accurate?? I don't know with all the stories out there you are doing the absolute right thing by sending it in but if it were me and the rest of the gun is perfect and shoots well I might just fill the Crack with some J B weld or something if you can not see Crack with grips on. Good luck to you.

Almost makes you wonder why they even bothered wasting all the time of final parts fitting and assembly when the whole frame will be replaced once back in their possession.

Aren't the frames forged an earlier poster mentioned a flaw in the cast.

Even though that crack may not be in a critical area of the frame, I'd think about the possibility of there being flaws in the casting that aren't visible w/o dye penetrant or magna-flux. Just MHO

Aug. 19, '17
My bad, I meant to refer to forging rather than a cast frame.

Yes, the frames are forged, not cast.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

Quality Assurance at S&W believed that was "close enough". Hey if its not safe, just 'lock it out'.

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S&WHF 366

That is a fault in the forging. I would bet that it was not visible when the gun left the factory but appeared as the gun was fired and was exposed to different temperatures. There is no fix for it and Smith will replace the gun.

That is a surface anomaly in the surface of a low stress area of the frame. That handgun is safe to shoot and is sound for a long life. BUT, as others have stated, it is a quality control defect and S&W will replace the entire frame and/or the entire handgun. Just send it back on their dime. ..

How can this be. Forgings are so superior to MIM. LOL

Actually I would bet that there was a flaw in the initial billet that was not visible. Probably didn't show after forging and even most of the machining. Possibly enlarged when piece was heat treated but maybe not. I once ground a knife blade from a piece of high quality German D2 tool steel. Heat treated it along with some others . Didn't see anything unusual until I was doing the final finish with high grit sand paper. Small scratch that wouldn't go away. Got suspicious and checked it with dye penetrate and then flexed it. SNAP. Once it was broke I could clearly see the flaw which I am sure was from the initial billet and survived being rolled into plate and being sheared into strips, being ground and heat treated. Might not have opened up until some small stress was put on it if I had hot noticed the "scratch"

I am sure S&W will replace it.

OK, that's it, I've heard enough about poor quality from S&W the past few years, including me own experience with a 317 that they never could get right and I ended up selling for a substantial loss. In addition, I bought a new 642 this year that had to go back immediately due to the cylinder being almost impossible to open.
I'm buying ONE more S&W, a 3rd generation gun, probably a 3913, and I'm done! They can choose someone else to be their quality control monkey besides me. One more - that's it! And it's going to be a used older one.

People are so shocked nowadays are they?

My neighbor just moved into a brandy new house last Saturday. Today there was an appliance repair van parked in their driveway.

More for me.

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

What a coincidence! I dated Brandy Newhouse back in highschool!

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Pisgah

'Kay, thanks, bye.

Don't get excited - they're not going to lower the price on any of them.

Those of you saying S&W didn't see this are making excuses for them.

I can easily imagine someone at the factory noticing this crack and deciding the grips would cover it and 80% of gun buyers will never remove the grips so "no one will ever know".

It's in a none stress area and I'd bet they figured it would be cheeper to send it out, with the probability it would never be seen, than to junk a nearly or completely finished revolver.

Sad commentary on S&W and on the times we are living in.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

There is absolutely no excuse for S&W ( at least the new-age version of S&W ) to put out some of the junk they have recently. I can picture their so-called Customer Service Department ( that's if there is one) occupied by a bunch of former shoe salesmen and car wash attendants spending all their time on their phones, with zero experience in handgun design, manufacture, or intended function. What do they care ? low pay, no benefits and waiting to see the babes at the bar about 5:00. Now that's my rant, and if I offended someone that's just too damn bad.

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John

Sent the gun off today to S&W with a note explaining that I prefer the firearm be replaced. We'll see what happens. After the past 5 handgun purchases this year (4 Sig P320s and this S&W), I'm ready for a little good news. Thanks for the replies.

Is there a particular time period that quality at S&W started going downhill?

Good to hear from someone who actually has some metal working experience.

Well. Seems about in line with the quality I have been seeing during this whole ordeal with my 627 that's on its way back for the 3rd time to the factory

S&W are forged, not cast. But I agree that cannot be repaired, apparently the metal used for the forging had contamination. Even if dropped on the shop floor it should not have cracked.

I am not making excuses for them. A crack like that should have been visible, even if it had not opened up much.

I also am not impressed with S&W lack of real quality control and the percentage of guns with serious flaws. Some people are a little bit nit picky, but, when you start getting a reputation for shoddy work, people are going to be much more critical and notice more. Thinks like 1 or 2 degrees of out of clock might not get noticed or really effect much, but when its a known problem people are going to look a lot harder, same thing goes for all the rest, finish flaws, poor forcing cones, muzzle and barrel flaws.

They are making a poor bed and are going to have to sleep in it. Even if they make a huge leap in quality control it will be a while before people have faith and be more willing to give them a pass on some of the minor stuff.

Will it stop me from buying a recent manufacture S&W I want? No, but I wouldn't just say I'll take it and walk out without going over it with a critical eye. There was a day when you could see it and say I want it and if they handed you one in the box you went home a happy camper. That ship has sailed. Lucky for me I really want for nothing in the revolver department except the right deal on some older stuff. Need to sell way more than need to buy. LOL.

Does S&W Magnaflux/MPI each frame before it goes out? Assuming they do some kind of integrity testing, that should have caught this even if the crack had not yet visibly revealed itself.

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SWHF #448

This happened with Ruger revolvers several years ago (around the year 2010 people started complaining about barrel alignment problems). They were sending out revolvers with clockef barrels about 5 years ago I'd say probably 75% of the ones that I saw in gun shops had clocked barrels) and so many consumers complained that something happened and they fixed it. As a result, I have not seen a single clocked Ruger barrel in quite a while.
I think Smith & Wesson needs to call Ruger and see what they did to fix their problem.

Judging by what I have read/heard over my past 55 or so years owning and shooting their guns and following their press, I'd say about 1880.

Not saying they haven't had their problems from time to time -- every maker of any sort of mass-produced mechanism can have QC troubles --, but it really seems that every generation decries the "death of quality at S&W"...

It always pays to keep in mind that on this forum, or any other brand-dedicated firearms forum, the participants are the folks most interested in and critical of the product, and the ones most likely to yelp at every problem found, no matter how inconsequential or (in some cases) even imaginary the problem might be. Meanwhile, 10's of 1000's of other owners and users go blissfully on their way, completely unaware that their prized firearms are nothing more than shoddy junk...

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Pisgah

Pisgah, I can appreciate what you're saying, but I am a very loyal Smith & Wesson fan but I am appalled at what I have seen over the past 10 212 years from Smith & Wesson. I mean, a $900 revolver with the Smith & Wesson name and ".357 Magnum - 8 Times" stamped onto the barrel at about a 10 degree angle? Come on!

As bad as this crack is, it is even worse when you look at it from a symptomatic standpoint. By this I mean not just the material factors behind the crack or the QC issues that allowed this to get through inspection, but what this means in terms of more critical yet less obvious flaws in the design, materials, and manufacturing of various components.
Also, what does this say about the quality of their workforce, be it the guys "in the trenches" or the "suits" calling the shots?
Might not be too big a deal if this stuff wasn't becoming so commonplace.
Sheesh!

Oddly above the backstrap onto the flat surface it looks like it has been scuffed or filed or sanded or is it something you did to evaluate the split?
Karl

Other than take the screw out of the rubber grips and remove each one, I've done nothing to the grip frame: no scuffing, filing, sanding, dropping, chiseling, carving, etc. ; )

Yeah, I just bought a SIG P320 back in June. Now they have issued the "voluntary trigger upgrade". Fancy way of saying "recall".

Maybe Ruger hired away all of Smith & Wesson's experienced Barrel Fitters?

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Dave Brown
SWCA #3279

So what does it mean when I saw a model 28 with a crooked barrel? Is it just a unicorn? Was I dreaming? Gun is roughly 40 years old

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So it's a fact that they saw it? You witnessed it? And what times are we living in exactly? Please see my post above and explain how it can happen when supposed problems are only a few years old. I'm expecting to see each and every 40+ year old revolver to be PERFECT as this is what I'm told here!

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Quality control didn't change. The internet changed. Who media you guys use to complain to the world in the 60s?

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Do these revolvers come packed with "inspected by" information?
Heck, even a new pair of underwear has an inspection decal! Ideally, shouldn't there be a supervisor who must be able to corroborate between defective products and habitually incompetent inspectors?

With the pre-war Colt Shooting Master, if one was returned to the factory for repair, they made the original fitting gunsmith stay after hours to do the repair work on their own time!

No, that's not what you're being told. What you are being told is that for the past several years quality from S&W, including improperly clocked barrels, is much worse than it was "back in the day". Noone has said they were perfect before - just that they are FAR from it now.

And just how commonplace is it? What's the percentage of significant QC failures theses days?

Fact is, you don't know and neither do I. It seems like it's high -- but that's based solely on what we see here. And as I have already stated, what we see here cannot be assumed to be typical of their total production, or of typical customer satisfaction.

It's like the common perception that overall violent crime rates have skyrocketed when in fact violent crimes in the US are lower today than they were 40 years ago. It's the fact that violent crimes are reported so widely, so much more quickly, and so much more loudly than they used to be that creates the perception -- a false perception.

Think about it -- if the current news being reported on the Internet and on the air reflected reality, neo-Nazis would be demonstrating on every street corner, Nazi flags would be flying off the front porches of every other house in half the neighborhoods in the country, and every stadium in the country would be booked for Nazi mass rallies.

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Pisgah

Did you see bigfoot too?

How do we know there is more when all we have to go by are complaints on the internet? If you had actual figures of guns sold vs defective guns I'd understand that "back in the day" until then all we know is when someone complains. You only see complaints so you wouldn't have a proper view of the whole picture. What I bought 20 perfect new revolvers last week but didn't post a peep about them because there was nothing to post about? No defects! Is that taken into consideration when analyzing "back in the day"? When a shop in Moose Fart MN received 32 defective revolvers in 1934/56/62/77/84 would you know about it living in Taxes or Florida or California or even a 100 miles away?

Now, when I'm online complaining about my poor QC revolver and I post my problem here under the name Arik but then I go on another forum and post the same problem under a different name does it become 2 problems or one?

The ONLY way to know is to know total sales vs returns. Otherwise all your going by is what someone online is crying about.


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The butt of the frame was placed in a vise. It may not have been held firmly enough. It was was then torqued or twisted around at the barrel. That crack looks like it goes all the way through. Could you show us some photos of the other side straight on. Just for our amateur sleuthing.

ARIK does raise a very valid point. In todays world everyone has a computer and a search function. In the 1980s when I bought a model 18 and it had a rough trigger and the barrel started unscrewing computers pretty basic and the net was only a fantasy. Only ones who heard me whine were S& and a couple friends.

I suspect the problem is somewhat magnified. But, it is still troubling when you see things like this crack and hear of so many mis timed barrels. Getting a barrel on in time just isn't that hard. Seeing it is considerably out of time is also easy. Some of the things we see posted are very visible to the naked eye and should have never left the factory in 1935 I highly doubt the did. But, if one did get past the complaint didn't spread to wide,

I have worked with a lot of steel in various forms. Once seen a very high dollar brand new 5% chrome, 600psi, 10" check valve spray out the side when installed in a line and line was hydro tested. Forged and machined. Many people handled it during shipping, receiving, QC had PMIed it to check the alloy, men rigged it and installed it. QC inspected bolt up. NOBODY saw the small crack that opened up under pressure.

Sometimes an inclusion (small impurity or void in initial casting of billet) will not show up until significantly stressed. X raying all the frames would be expensive, mag fluxing time consuming, ultra sound difficult on odd shaped pieces. Best solution would be ultra sounding reduced billets right before being chopped up for forging

He didn't say he saw it. He said "I can easily imagine"

Regarding the OP's revolver, that's too bad. I'm sure S&W will replace it.

Regarding the "quality decline" comments, I have no idea is S&W "quality decline" is a truism. As Arik noted, back in the pre-Internet era all these problems were local. Now someone has an issue and it's posted for everyone in the world (literally) to see.

Another problem is the velocity of information and the echo chambers. You see this especially with social media. Little problems become "big" problems quickly. Tweets, re-tweets, links, etc. Suddenly there are encyclopedic volumes on "problems." Google "S&W" "Canted barrel" and see what you get.

I have some S&W revolvers from each decade starting from the 1950's. A couple of them have a few quirks. One had a hitchy trigger that I fixed. One model 36 from the 1970's had a lose yoke just like a 60-14 I purchased about five years ago.

My point here is that to claim S&W QA is going down without any supporting evidence seems, to me, to be an emotional response that is not based in fact. I will stand corrected if the evidence bears out the claim.

Me, you and everyone else

Smith will replace without resistance.