Smith & Wesson Forum

Go Back   Smith & Wesson Forum > >


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:39 PM
1961MJS 1961MJS is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norman Oklahoma
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default Which .357 frame is stronger?

Hi

I currently own an older Model 19 in .357 and I primarily shoot .38 Specials in it. I'd like to get an L-frame to shoot .357 magnums in full time. I'm looking at this gun as a woods carry gun, concealed in cooler weather, not so much in the Oklahoma summers. The 686 is supposed to be slightly larger than the old K-frames so you can shoot .357 in it every day. I'm looking at between 500 and 2000 rounds a year. I've narrowed my choices down to two models:

Model 686 Plus 3-5-7 Magnum Series
SKU: 150854.
Model 686 Plus 3-5-7 Magnum Series | Smith & Wesson

Model 686
SKU: 164222
Model 686 | Smith & Wesson

In my opinion, the 686 6 shot should be a stronger frame. Another shooter said that the 686 7 shot would be stronger because the lower half of the cylinder / frame match is between two chambers on steel, not on the chamber itself. Which would be stronger? At 2000 rounds a year, is this a concern? The 3-5-7 comes in a 5 inch barrel as opposed to the 686 with a 4 inch barrel. I'm good sized, so hiding another inch of barrel wouldn't be a problem.

Recommendations?

Thanks, I looked for this information in this forum, but didn't find what I was after.

Thanks
__________________
Mike
Norman Oklahoma
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-13-2017, 11:47 PM
Targets Guy's Avatar
Targets Guy Targets Guy is offline
US Veteran
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Southwest Iowa
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 1,055
Liked 8,721 Times in 2,605 Posts
Default

Welcome to the forum.

Take a look at the N frames. Model 28 in particular.
__________________
Mike
S&WCA #3065
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:17 AM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 2,857
Liked 1,823 Times in 738 Posts
Default

I'm no expert, but I'd say any difference in strength between the two L-frames you're considering would be neglible. Pick the one you like best.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:27 AM
dwever dwever is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 759
Likes: 93
Liked 584 Times in 256 Posts
Default

Well if strength is the main thing, in a sturdy S&W L Frame, my choice would be a blued carbon steel 586 L-Comp. Strength and very high round counts would also seem to bring N frames in to the discussion. But then if the strongest L-Frame money can buy is in play, arguably the strongest built .357 Magnum period in a current production revolver just might be a Korth Mongoose 6 shot.

Frame and cylinder made of a much higher strength and harder steel than popular revolver brands, the same steel commercial aircraft landing gear is fashioned from. Barrel is even more exotic, made of the same steel in open class dragster crankshafts that take obscene loading. Just massive overkill but there it is. Then as evidenced by the pictures below, they machine their steel much thicker. But that and other over-engineering help explain the Korth's current $3,500 price.

Observe the ejector Rod and Ratchet of my cherished S&W Perf Ctr 627 N Frame .357 (pic 1), a the S&W N frame is a very stout customer, and then compare with the Korth Mongoose .357 (pic 2&3). Even accounting for the larger N Frame S&W cylinder, there still a substantial difference in thickness at the ejector rod and ejection star, and the Korth uses higher strength and harder steel. Interestingly, spent shells fall much easier and slicker from the Korth presumably from the harder steel, and the proprietary extra hardening process during chamber boring. Over engineering abounds such as double action that floats on ball bearings arguably giving the smoothest DA experience money can buy in a current production revolver.

But my pictured S&W 627 has had a very nice action job that had good action to begin with, and dollar for dollar is the best purchase as you could own three for the same money as a single German Mongoose.

Pics: S&W PC 627, Korth Mongoose, Korth Mongoose, S&W PC 627
Attached Thumbnails
Which .357 frame is stronger?-fullsizerender-2-jpg   Which .357 frame is stronger?-fullsizerender-4-jpg   Which .357 frame is stronger?-fullsizerender-3-jpg   Which .357 frame is stronger?-164391470-ljbgmk9j-jpg  

Last edited by dwever; 09-14-2017 at 12:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Like Post:
  #5  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:01 AM
SWWheelGun SWWheelGun is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 305
Likes: 486
Liked 568 Times in 140 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwever View Post
(...) Korth Mongoose 6 shot. (...)
Wow, a Korth! Congrats for owning such engineering marvel of a wheel gun.

Do you think you could please share more photos of the Mongoose?
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #6  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:11 AM
sammynomas sammynomas is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: OKC Metro Area
Posts: 52
Likes: 25
Liked 74 Times in 26 Posts
Default

Hello from another Okie. I would suggest the 686 +, one more round, but I got the 3 inch 3-5-7. It accompanies me everywhere I go.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #7  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:27 AM
Dale53 Dale53 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southwestern Ohio
Posts: 2,145
Likes: 75
Liked 764 Times in 311 Posts
Default

The 686 in either version will handle any .357 factory load without ANY strength issues. Further, I much prefer the 686 compared to the Model 27/627 because it will handle a wider range of bullet lengths (cylinder is longer than the 27/627). As a for instance, the original Keith 358429 must be crimped over the front band in the Model 27, whereas the 686 can use the crimp groove as the bullet was designed for.

I have a 4" 686 Model CS-1 and a 686-3 with 6" barrel. I have shot them thousands of times with both .38 Special wadcutters and full charge .357's without issue. I have never heard of a 686 having any strength issues. They are great field pieces.

FWIW
Dale53
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #8  
Old 09-14-2017, 02:03 AM
dwever dwever is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 759
Likes: 93
Liked 584 Times in 256 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SWWheelGun View Post
Wow, a Korth! Congrats for owning such engineering marvel of a wheel gun.

Do you think you could please share more photos of the Mongoose?
Yeah. Nighthawk is Korth's distributor in the U.S. and they along with numerous reviewers overhyped an incredibly nice weapon. And the finish is ridiculously nice and the second manufacturer's picture does it justice - think Wilson Combat. It is now owned by a gentleman in Florida who absolutely loves it. The second time I seriously regretted selling a gun after the fact.

More Pics Mongoose .357 - Korth Revolvers.
Attached Thumbnails
Which .357 frame is stronger?-fullsizerender-jpg   Which .357 frame is stronger?-fullsizeoutput_596-jpg  

Last edited by dwever; 09-14-2017 at 02:06 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #9  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:48 AM
CDR_Glock CDR_Glock is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 150
Likes: 330
Liked 140 Times in 65 Posts
Default

I have not heard of any durability issues for the 686.

I'd personally pick the 7 shot.

Ironically, I don't have a 686-Plus. I have a Performance Center (PC) 586 L-Comp 7 shot and a PC 627 5" 8 shot. They're very heavy, and the recoil of either is minimal.

The only revolvers where recoil is noticeable is in my two Snubnosed revolvers.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #10  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:20 AM
Collo Rosso's Avatar
Collo Rosso Collo Rosso is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Upstate South Carolina
Posts: 1,141
Likes: 637
Liked 1,336 Times in 526 Posts
Default

You mention conceal carry and for me, the smaller and lighter the better. The new 66-8 with 2.75" barrel would be my choice. With the frame upgrades plenty strong too.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #11  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:29 AM
Shark Bait's Avatar
Shark Bait Shark Bait is offline
US Veteran
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,217
Likes: 2,152
Liked 2,709 Times in 639 Posts
Default

Any L frame will be strong enough for what you want to do. If you like speed loaders, they work a little better with the 6 shot version. If not, go with the 7 shot.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #12  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:30 AM
Enzo's Avatar
Enzo Enzo is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 152
Likes: 39
Liked 51 Times in 28 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammynomas View Post
Hello from another Okie. I would suggest the 686 +, one more round, but I got the 3 inch 3-5-7. It accompanies me everywhere I go.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk
This!
Can handle a full diet of .357 and use as a ccw.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #13  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:49 AM
scooter123 scooter123 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Metro Detroit, Michigan
Posts: 6,134
Likes: 143
Liked 3,062 Times in 1,588 Posts
Default

I just don't "get" how 2000 rounds per year is considered a "high round count", I have months where I'll send 2000 rounds downrange and some consider me a lightweight.

In regards to the steel used in the 686 series it's either type 416 or type 436 Stainless Steel, both of which have properties that basically match 4140 "chrome moly" steel. Meaning it's an extremely strong and durable steel that is also resistant to corrosion.

In theory the CYLINDER for the 686 Plus is slightly stronger because the stop notches are between the chambers instead of at the thinner spot created by the chambers. However IMO that "weakness" would require a hand load operating about 50 to 75% over the Maximum pressure for the 357 Magnum to be considered a potential problem. Basically use sane hand loads or standard commercial 357 Magnums and it doesn't matter which cylinder you choose. Personally I like the extra capacity of the 7 shooter but every time I go to the range with mine I find myself dumping a loaded round into my hand for at least the first 3 or 4 cylinders because I seem to have counting to 6 tattooed into my brain.

As for the FRAME, ALL L frames use the same, identical, frame forging. So there is no difference at all between the 686 or 686 Plus in the frame strength. I also expect that there is no difference between the blued 586 and the stainless 686 but must state that I am assuming the 586 frame uses 4140 steel. If the 586 uses 1040 or 1020 the 686 is actually slightly stronger.

Finally, by many reports the 686 can last between 60,000 and 100,000 rounds before a loss in accuracy due to a worn out barrel is seen. So, at only 2000 rounds per year you have between 30 and 50 years of "life" in a new 686. The only defect I see in the 686 is that full length underlug, IMO they produce a barrel heavy balance and are quite UGLY. To bad the 686 Mountain Gun wasn't the standard model and the full underlug imitation Python was the special edition only seen once.

Last edited by scooter123; 09-14-2017 at 06:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
  #14  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:13 AM
AlHunt AlHunt is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 917
Likes: 1,353
Liked 951 Times in 436 Posts
Default

I'll join the voices saying there isn't any appreciable difference in these 2 revolvers for your concerns. Your great grandchildren probably won't wear either one out.
__________________
Freedom Is Not A "Loophole"
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:23 AM
WisconsinKen WisconsinKen is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central Wisconsin
Posts: 472
Likes: 89
Liked 254 Times in 137 Posts
Default

The 686 frame is strong and would serve your intended purpose. There is a reason why S&W has sold that many over the years. I have had a few 686 and 686+ over the years but the 586 L-Comp would probably be my suggestion. My L-Comp has displaced my 686+ in my collection and DC rotation. I love the idea of that 7th round "for free".
I know I am opening myself up for tons of flak, but the GP100 is also a tank of a .357 and is as strong (here comes the rotten tomatoes being thrown my way) or potentially slightly stronger. However, I think you'd be in that 200k+ realm before any difference of the 2 could ever show up if it ever did. Just a viable alternative but the 686+ / 586 L-Comp would of course be my first choice.

Last edited by WisconsinKen; 09-14-2017 at 07:24 AM. Reason: Spelling error
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #16  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:19 AM
CDR_Glock CDR_Glock is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 150
Likes: 330
Liked 140 Times in 65 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WisconsinKen View Post
The 686 frame is strong and would serve your intended purpose. There is a reason why S&W has sold that many over the years. I have had a few 686 and 686+ over the years but the 586 L-Comp would probably be my suggestion. My L-Comp has displaced my 686+ in my collection and DC rotation. I love the idea of that 7th round "for free".
I know I am opening myself up for tons of flak, but the GP100 is also a tank of a .357 and is as strong (here comes the rotten tomatoes being thrown my way) or potentially slightly stronger. However, I think you'd be in that 200k+ realm before any difference of the 2 could ever show up if it ever did. Just a viable alternative but the 686+ / 586 L-Comp would of course be my first choice.

Even more overbuilt than the GP100 is the Redhawk. That would be one of the most heavy duty revolvers in 357 Magnum. I have considered one but the 4x caliber has me more enamored.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #17  
Old 09-14-2017, 09:36 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 895
Likes: 31
Liked 731 Times in 390 Posts
Default

It's sad , folks don't realize the real strengths of the K-frame 357's . It was the " light for caliber " 110-125gr bullets that cracked forcing cones and would , over time shoot them loose . They were using a powder charge with those light bullets that is the same charge weight for the 41 magnum / 210gr bullet and that's in the N-frame .
I have shot a " zillion " 180 gr cast bullets out of K-frame (19's) using a max load of W296( current load data ) and they are still as tight as the day I bought them .
The L-frame is a fine choice , I have a 686 , 4" that I got from a retired LEO . It just lays in the cabinet , I don't use it .

Last edited by cowboy4evr; 09-14-2017 at 09:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:00 AM
Pisgah Pisgah is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 4
Liked 1,403 Times in 573 Posts
Default

The frames of the 686 and 686 Plus are identical. It is the cylinders that differ -- but not in overall size. The Plus has 7 holes instead of 6, which means thinner chamber walls; but, the bolt notches are located between the chambers, meaning in effect that the strength of the 7-shot cylinder at least equals the strength of the same-size cylinder having only 6 holes in it.

In short, there is no difference in strength between the two. Either is capable of handling a lifetime of shooting SAAMI-spec .357 ammo.
__________________
Pisgah
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #19  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:50 AM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 2
Liked 655 Times in 386 Posts
Default

This is all from memory, so may not be 100% accurate, but I'm pretty sure the basic concept remains intact...

In an early 70's edition of HANDLOADER magazine, a ballistic engineer with Speer bullets, Bill Caldwell, wrote an article mainly about handgun pressure. This was based on some pretty extensive lab work the author had done. He applied a product called "StressCoat (sic)" to a Model 27 and fired it (don't recall the ammo, but probably .357 Magnum). There were cracks in the coating after firing, allegedly indicating points of stress to the frame and other areas.

That's a very oversimplified explanation. This process did not appear to be flawed and there was much to back up Caldwell's analysis. However, the procedure may be considered worthless today and maybe even crude for the era in which the test work was done; I have no idea.

Regardless, a revolver of any frame size will wear more quickly when fired with heavy handloads and/or commercial .357 Magnum ammo. While it would stand to reason a light-framed revolver would wear more quickly than one with a heavy frame, the degree of significance likely remains unknown.

As for the total number of rounds fired through any gun, most estimates are probably not anywhere close to accurate, unless someone has actually kept track of the rounds. I'm pretty sure a few people have actually done this, but very few. I've never known of any such shooter. Consider that Internet claims on the subject are just that and may have been made by self-proclaimed experts.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #20  
Old 09-14-2017, 11:21 AM
Club Gun Fan's Avatar
Club Gun Fan Club Gun Fan is offline
SWCA Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 1,434
Liked 4,593 Times in 1,391 Posts
Default

I have my first S&W .357 Model 19 I bought in 1973. It has had well over 100,000 .357 Magnum rounds thru it. Whenever Smith & Wesson came out with new .38 Spl and .357 Mag rounds my buddy would get a case or two for evaluation. He worked at the plant and also had a Star press. I carried it on duty for part of my LEO career. I also carried a Model 66. Both never gave me any trouble. Buy a used Model 19 or Model 66. Take the $2500.00 you'll save by not buying the Korth and get yourself shooting ammo.
__________________
Don Mundell S&WCA LM614
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:05 PM
ridgewalker ridgewalker is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Western USA
Posts: 583
Likes: 601
Liked 343 Times in 190 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1961MJS View Post
Hi

I currently own an older Model 19 in .357 and I primarily shoot .38 Specials in it. I'd like to get an L-frame to shoot .357 magnums in full time. I'm looking at this gun as a woods carry gun, concealed in cooler weather, not so much in the Oklahoma summers. The 686 is supposed to be slightly larger than the old K-frames so you can shoot .357 in it every day. I'm looking at between 500 and 2000 rounds a year. I've narrowed my choices down to two models:

Model 686 Plus 3-5-7 Magnum Series
SKU: 150854.
Model 686 Plus 3-5-7 Magnum Series | Smith & Wesson

Model 686
SKU: 164222
Model 686 | Smith & Wesson

In my opinion, the 686 6 shot should be a stronger frame. Another shooter said that the 686 7 shot would be stronger because the lower half of the cylinder / frame match is between two chambers on steel, not on the chamber itself. Which would be stronger? At 2000 rounds a year, is this a concern? The 3-5-7 comes in a 5 inch barrel as opposed to the 686 with a 4 inch barrel. I'm good sized, so hiding another inch of barrel wouldn't be a problem.

Recommendations?

Thanks, I looked for this information in this forum, but didn't find what I was after.

Thanks
There is agreement by the posters above that either the 6 or 7 shot cylinders in the L frame is plenty strong for a lifetime of shooting as you described. I am in agreement as well. I was shooting my 6 shot 686 SSR yesterday at the range with mild 357 loads which I loaded myself. (BTW I shoot mild loads for my sake, not because the gun can't handle stronger loads.) It really is a joy to shoot. But my 686+ is great to shoot as well.

If I remember correctly, the Talo 3-5-7 series comes with an unfluted cylinder. I used to think that unfluted cylinders were purely stylistic and I preferred the traditional fluted look. But eventually I acquired some revolvers with unfluted cylinders and I discovered that I could shoot them more accurately. I think the added mass stabilizes the gun. Much like the full underlug but without making the balance barrel heavy. So now I am a fan of unfluted cylinders and would recommend that choice. Also since you seem to be concerned with the strength, the unfluted cylinder must be a bit stronger.

In any case any of the L frame models will make you happy. Let us know which way you go.
__________________
Accuracy supercedes Speed

Last edited by ridgewalker; 09-14-2017 at 12:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #22  
Old 09-14-2017, 01:14 PM
1961MJS 1961MJS is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norman Oklahoma
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Thanks for the replies. I have more data than I expected since I had forgotten about the Model 27 and 28. I'll almost certainly carry one or two speedloaders, so I'm leaning 6 shot 686 right now.
Thanks again
__________________
Mike
Norman Oklahoma
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #23  
Old 09-14-2017, 03:59 PM
nachogrande nachogrande is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gods waiting room
Posts: 756
Likes: 525
Liked 654 Times in 323 Posts
Question UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING REALLY WILD PLANNED FOR IT.

The L frame should hold up fine. During steel challenge/bowling pin matches (5 plates) if you miss one and need the extra shot, you are out of the winners circle anyway (with any 1/2 decent competition), so having an extra round for that type of use does nothing for me. If 1 extra round is of great importance to you for S/D, may as well go with a higher capacity bottom feeder.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:33 PM
Engineer1911's Avatar
Engineer1911 Engineer1911 is offline
US Veteran
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 4,373
Liked 3,343 Times in 1,608 Posts
Default

At the end of a range session, your shooting wrist will have given up before your S&W L-frame gets tired.
__________________
S&WCA # 2533, Inactive
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #25  
Old 09-14-2017, 05:44 PM
ruger 22 ruger 22 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NY
Posts: 84
Likes: 65
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Default

At the volumes you will shoot, any 357 will do just fine. I prefer the 586/686 to any of S&W's 357s since they have the long cylinder and do not have the unprotected barrel in the frame found on the 27/28's.

Last edited by ruger 22; 09-14-2017 at 05:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-14-2017, 06:52 PM
bmcgilvray's Avatar
bmcgilvray bmcgilvray is offline
SWCA Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,493
Likes: 2,611
Liked 2,114 Times in 484 Posts
Default

"... do not have the unprotected barrel in the frame found on the 27/28's."

?

Model 27's live here as does a Model 586. What's this "unprotected barrel in the frame" business?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-14-2017, 07:07 PM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 895
Likes: 31
Liked 731 Times in 390 Posts
Default

I'm with you on that one Bob , what the heck is " an unprotected barrel in the frame " ?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:23 PM
ruger 22 ruger 22 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NY
Posts: 84
Likes: 65
Liked 108 Times in 61 Posts
Default

Poor choice of words on my part. Notice how the cylinder fills the frame on the 686; on the 27 there is a gap between the cylinder and frame. The barrel protrudes to meet the cylinder. That portion of the barrel is 'unprotected' in relation to that of the 686.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:40 PM
hittman77's Avatar
hittman77 hittman77 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,155
Likes: 314
Liked 786 Times in 312 Posts
Default

I'm no expert but agree with those that don't think up to 2000 rounds a year is a high round count for a 686.

That being said and as much as I like my 686-4, you're gonna have to move to a GP100 or Redhawk to get "beefier" and maybe gain total confidence of strength.

Of course, your desire to carry may suffer with the added weight.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-14-2017, 10:52 PM
Toblerra Toblerra is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 221
Likes: 79
Liked 137 Times in 69 Posts
Default

I second the opinion that you would not wear out either revolver. That being said, I would pick the 686 plus, just in case 6 didn't do it.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:52 AM
KEN L's Avatar
KEN L KEN L is offline
SWCA Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: N GA
Posts: 3,182
Likes: 152
Liked 2,217 Times in 915 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1961MJS View Post
Thanks for the replies. I have more data than I expected since I had forgotten about the Model 27 and 28. I'll almost certainly carry one or two speedloaders, so I'm leaning 6 shot 686 right now.
Thanks again
You should know that the L frame was the first frame size designed specifically for the .357 Magnum cartridge. Though the N frame is a fine weapon, I much prefer the size and feel of the L frame, specifically my 4" 686 no dash, bought new in 1981, when they first became available.
Attached Thumbnails
Which .357 frame is stronger?-left-side-original-box-papers-jpg  
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:06 AM
1961MJS 1961MJS is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norman Oklahoma
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Thanks, I hadn't realized that the Model 27 and 28 were N-Frames. I'll look at those also. The 627 V-Comp looks good also, but is a bit more $ and size than I want to walk around with. I haven't seen speed loaders for 8 shots either. The 586 L Comp also looks good, but I'd really rather have a 5 inch barrel, and while I think I could stand a 4 inch barrel, I think a 3 inch would be too short.

Again, thanks for the information. I have a couple more questions.

First of all I realize that 2000 rounds isn't a lot, but they will all be .357 Magnum, not 38 Specials. I have a great Model 19 that I use for match shooting. I target shoot (bullseye), not any form of action pistol, so in my circles 2000 rounds of 357 Mag is a lot, but 10000 rounds of 22LR in a target pistol and 5000 rounds through a .45 ACP isn't much at all.

cowboy4evr wrote "It's sad , folks don't realize the real strengths of the K-frame 357's . It was the " light for caliber " 110-125gr bullets that cracked forcing cones and would , over time shoot them loose . They were using a powder charge with those light bullets that is the same charge weight for the 41 magnum / 210gr bullet and that's in the N-frame ." I read a similar comment elsewhere. This is counter intuitive to me, but in order to keep the revolver running longer, using heavy loads, I need to use a heavier bullet? I plan on using jacketed bullets, which will wear the barrel more quickly, but for my purpose that's what I'll probably shoot. I have 158 grain jacketed hollow points to work up a load with. I guess I answered this one on my own.

My other question involves speed loaders for both a 686 and a 686 plus (7 shot). I have an HKS 6 shot speed loader for the Model 19. I like the Safariland speed loader better and I have 8 or those now for the same gun. The HKS carries the rounds more loosely. I noticed the Speed Beez, speed loader. These appear to be for competition shooting but they do make a belt carrier for $35 a piece. Has anyone used these and if so, how well did they work? Does anyone carry Moon Clips for defensive purposes? This place sets up the revolver for moon clips and has what are effectively pocket protectors for the Moon clips.

Welcome to TK Custom.com & Moonclips.com

Thanks
__________________
Mike
Norman Oklahoma
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:43 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 895
Likes: 31
Liked 731 Times in 390 Posts
Default

The K-frame 19 and 66's were designed to shoot a 158 gr , or heavier bullet . S&W had received so much flak that the 27-28's cylinder was too short to load the " Keith " 173gr " swc in a 357 case . So , with the development of the new , at the time K-frame 357's , they lengthened the cylinder to accept the Keith swc in a 357 case . You don't have to go to a heavier bullet , just use the 158 gr as the lightest . I personally woudn't worry about jacketed bullets causing undue wear on the barrel . The velocity is too slow , not like a high powdered rifle blazing along at over twice the velocity .
The L-frame has the same longer cylinder .

Last edited by cowboy4evr; 09-15-2017 at 08:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:49 AM
ContinentalOp's Avatar
ContinentalOp ContinentalOp is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,808
Likes: 2,857
Liked 1,823 Times in 738 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1961MJS View Post
cowboy4evr wrote "It's sad , folks don't realize the real strengths of the K-frame 357's . It was the " light for caliber " 110-125gr bullets that cracked forcing cones and would , over time shoot them loose . They were using a powder charge with those light bullets that is the same charge weight for the 41 magnum / 210gr bullet and that's in the N-frame ." I read a similar comment elsewhere. This is counter intuitive to me, but in order to keep the revolver running longer, using heavy loads, I need to use a heavier bullet? I plan on using jacketed bullets, which will wear the barrel more quickly, but for my purpose that's what I'll probably shoot. I have 158 grain jacketed hollow points to work up a load with. I guess I answered this one on my own.
That only applies to full-power magnum loads, such as the 125gr SJHP at ~1450fps. My understanding is that the light bullets are shorter and move at such a high rate of speed that they cross the cylinder gap into the barrel before the chamber pressure has a chance to drop, resulting in hot gases and unburnt powder hitting the forcing cone. The result is erosion over time. Heavier, longer bullets effectively seal the cylinder gap long enough to keep that from happening.

Light- or medium-power loads, like Remington's Golden Sabre 125gr mid-range .357 Magnum load, as well as .38 Special loads, don't have this issue.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-15-2017, 08:55 AM
CAJUNLAWYER's Avatar
CAJUNLAWYER CAJUNLAWYER is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On da Bayou Teche
Posts: 12,553
Likes: 4,800
Liked 21,681 Times in 4,548 Posts
Default

I don't think I could afford to wear out either my 66 or my 686's.
__________________
Forum consigliere
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
  #36  
Old 09-15-2017, 09:20 AM
BigBill BigBill is offline
Suspended
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: north america
Posts: 9,926
Likes: 1,110
Liked 8,176 Times in 3,432 Posts
Default

Well the stronger revolver in 357 magnum? Good question.

Back in the mid 70's the m19 was rumored to shoot itself apart with magnum loads. The screws come loose in any revolver that has them I don't care what brand I been there done that.

I was testing my stout reloads when I first started reloading in the mid 70's. Magnum full house loads in 125gr jhp. Through 158gr jhp I tried them all in my colt Python and ruger security six/ police service six. Both revolvers held up well. But there made from quality steels. I feel there is a difference.

The ruger Redhawk in 357 magnum to me is on the top of the heap for shooting many magnum rounds out of it. The ruger security six models in 357 is a close second. I still like the colt Python. But for a ccw magnum revolver I'd go with a ruger gp100 with the 2 3/4" barrel. I've owned and shot my police service six in 357 mag since '76. Never a problem. I'm not a snubbie guy too. My next choice would be a s&w m28 or m27 if you want a smith & Wesson. I remember seeing the Leo's packing the bigger N frame years ago. It's your choice.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #37  
Old 09-15-2017, 10:07 AM
MikeLeitner MikeLeitner is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 144
Likes: 59
Liked 136 Times in 67 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ruger 22 View Post
Poor choice of words on my part. Notice how the cylinder fills the frame on the 686; on the 27 there is a gap between the cylinder and frame. The barrel protrudes to meet the cylinder. That portion of the barrel is 'unprotected' in relation to that of the 686.
Well, it just stands to reason. Regardless of your frame size or the length of your barrel, whenever it protrudes it shouldn't be unprotected.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #38  
Old 09-15-2017, 12:52 PM
Engineer1911's Avatar
Engineer1911 Engineer1911 is offline
US Veteran
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Augusta, GA
Posts: 4,508
Likes: 4,373
Liked 3,343 Times in 1,608 Posts
Default It is possible

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAJUNLAWYER View Post
I don't think I could afford to wear out either my 66 or my 686's.
If you cast your bullets from scrounged bullet scrap and reload, it is affordable to load enough 38 Special ammo to wear out an L-frame shooting double action in revolver competition. I write from experience. The barrel was fine, but cylinder notches and hand were showing their age (round count). I had a M586 with 6" barrel and Patridge front sight.
__________________
S&WCA # 2533, Inactive
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-15-2017, 11:03 PM
1961MJS 1961MJS is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norman Oklahoma
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Hi
I ordered the S&W 686 3-5-7 with a five inch barrel. The reasons are as follows:
1. I wanted the longer sight radius of the 5 inch barrel.
2. There didn't seem to be any different in strength of the frame and cylinder between the 6 and 7 shot revolvers.
3. The idea that the un-fluted cylinder was a bit stronger and stiffer seemed like a good idea.

I didn't get the model 27 or 28 mainly because the barrel lengths that S&W currently carries are shorter than what I wanted. I also wanted the full barrel lug, which the model 27 classics don't have. I should have it next week sometime. I'll get pictures as soon as it's at the range.
Later
__________________
Mike
Norman Oklahoma
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
  #40  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:12 AM
CAJUNLAWYER's Avatar
CAJUNLAWYER CAJUNLAWYER is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On da Bayou Teche
Posts: 12,553
Likes: 4,800
Liked 21,681 Times in 4,548 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeLeitner View Post
Well, it just stands to reason. Regardless of your frame size or the length of your barrel, whenever it protrudes it shouldn't be unprotected.
I saw what you did..........
__________________
Forum consigliere
Reply With Quote
The Following User Likes This Post:
  #41  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:16 AM
ditto1958 ditto1958 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 270
Likes: 117
Liked 148 Times in 66 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1961MJS View Post
Thanks for the replies. I have more data than I expected since I had forgotten about the Model 27 and 28. I'll almost certainly carry one or two speedloaders, so I'm leaning 6 shot 686 right now.
Thanks again
Get one of those and never worry about strength again.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-16-2017, 10:33 AM
mg357 mg357 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: washington illinois
Posts: 3,316
Likes: 8,439
Liked 2,337 Times in 916 Posts
Default

I would chose this specific S&W 686

Model 686
SKU: 164222
Model 686 | Smith & Wesson
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-16-2017, 12:34 PM
riverrat38 riverrat38 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: La Conner, WA
Posts: 1,130
Likes: 1,508
Liked 537 Times in 323 Posts
Default

"Which .357 frame is stronger?"


Freedom Arms Model 83

Best,
Rick
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-16-2017, 01:33 PM
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,381
Likes: 0
Liked 896 Times in 528 Posts
Default

Riverrat38 beat me to it, for pure *strength* the full size FA is probably it . 6 shot Redhawks not far behind .

But a lot of the time when people speak of strength, they really mean durability. ie the time/ round count to develop issues with timing or lockup . Of course that varies greatly with how the user shoots it, ie da vs sa , and slowly vs quickly enough to develop cylinder inertia .

As everyone said 2000 round/ year isn't a lot, and either 686 will hold up to more or less SAAMI level .357s at that pace indefinitely .

The OP made his choice based upon ergonomics/ looks , and that's how it should be . ( To me , I categorically prefer 6rd to 7rd , and with 35yrs experience with speedloaders, prefer HKS , and despise Safariland .)

I'd be content in using M19 with 158gr cast bullets . For a gun of similar size and configuration, Security Six is mo better-er for strength .
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-18-2017, 12:43 AM
1961MJS 1961MJS is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norman Oklahoma
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Hi, I ordered the 686+ 3-5-7. In reading about the whole 686 barrel / frame alignment problem / canting, I didn't see any mention of the 3-5-7. IFFFFFF the gun shows up at the dealer and IS canted I think my options are 1. Don't buy it; and 2. Buy it and ship it back to S&W. Which is the better scenario?

99% sure this won't happen.
__________________
Mike
Norman Oklahoma
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-18-2017, 02:45 AM
SWWheelGun SWWheelGun is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 305
Likes: 486
Liked 568 Times in 140 Posts
Default

Good choice!

If there is a problem my recommendation would be to not buy that one and get another. I think that the thing with canted barrels is overblown. Even if you will get a bad one, unlikely next one will also be, and if that is too, try again. Anyway, inspect carefully before doing the paperwork. For what is worth I have two new 686 pluses so far and both arrived in perfect condition at the first try. One is a 3-5-7 in 5", this one:

3-5-7-072_3245-jpg
3-5-7-072_3265-jpg
3-5-7-072_3243-jpg
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-18-2017, 10:26 AM
cowboy4evr cowboy4evr is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: for now ,Texas
Posts: 895
Likes: 31
Liked 731 Times in 390 Posts
Default

If people think that ruger , and colts stand up well to the lighter weight bullets in 357 , they are sadly mistaken . I know of a ruger blackhawk that was used by a pd to develop handloads , it was on it's 3rd barrel when they quit handloading there .
A lot of the pythons today , upon close inspection you will find the forcing cone severely eroded . The pythons , ruger " 6 series " are larger frame hand guns than the K-frame smiths .
Let's remember , rugers are " cast " frames not forged . Under a high power microscope you will see that the ruger frame looks like " lava rock " , very porous where as the Smith & Wesson frame is forged . Under the same microscope the Smith frame shows the metal to be very tight grain , very solid . Ruger has to use an over abundance of metal to compensate for the lack of strength . The statement that rugers are " built like tanks " is very fool hardy and it's based solely on appearance and weight . Rugers are fine guns , I own 2 , but they are what they are .
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:13 PM
1961MJS 1961MJS is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Norman Oklahoma
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Hi, I picked up my new 686 plus 3-5-7 in .357 Magnum from Tin-Star in Weatherford OK. The alignment looks good from what I could see. The lock-up was tight on all 7 chambers. The finish isn't what you'd expect from a 1950's era Blued gun, but I couldn't care less about that, I bought it to shoot, not look at.

Since I plan on shooting only jacketed 158 grain bullets in this revolver that's what I'll break it in with. It was mentioned in a different thread on this form, that using .38 Specials was a decent idea, that was if there was some failure it would at least be on a lighter load. I haven't looked for that thread again, but if memory serves 1000 rounds was mentioned.

Is this a reasonable was to break in a revolver? This is only my second NIB revolver and I'd like to get this done correctly. Is there such a thing as broken in enough to start working up an accurate hand load?

Thanks
__________________
Mike
Norman Oklahoma
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:18 PM
bronco45's Avatar
bronco45 bronco45 is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Moscow, Idaho USA
Posts: 2,175
Likes: 4,463
Liked 774 Times in 365 Posts
Default

That 686 is a tough 357 shoot the snot out of it with 357s and don't worry. L Frames were designed to shoot lots and lots of 357s.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:29 PM
SWWheelGun SWWheelGun is offline
Member
Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger? Which .357 frame is stronger?  
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 305
Likes: 486
Liked 568 Times in 140 Posts
Default

These puppies can be feed a strict diet of .357 Magnums and do not need break in. My 2.5" 686-6 was "broken in" with over 1K of 158 gr full power magnums over a period of couple of weeks (I liked it so much I could not stop playing with it at the range). In fact, I got it with the specific purpose to be my full time Magnum snub and for me it's perfect in this role. Bonus for not running .38 Specials: the gun barely gets dirty after a session of few hundred shots.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Did the NFL get a lot faster and stronger? bushmaster1313 The Lounge 16 12-14-2015 01:25 PM
Sear Spring from Apex stronger? FiReBReTHa Smith & Wesson M&P Pistols 4 03-16-2014 09:09 AM
Stronger spring for the flag on the IL? Centurian77 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 12 10-12-2011 11:24 PM
Which is stronger? Marshall 357 S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present 6 02-02-2010 12:46 AM
Hand gun ban support stronger in 1960 than now? Onomea 2nd Amendment Forum 2 10-22-2009 03:35 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
smith-wessonforum.com tested by Norton Internet Security smith-wessonforum.com tested by McAfee Internet Security

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:57 AM.


S-W Forum, LLC 2000-2015
Smith-WessonForum.com is not affiliated with Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation (NASDAQ Global Select: SWHC)