I feel like Goldielocks, I've bought three J frames this past year, trying to find one I like as a constant companion and protector.

First I bought the 360PD AirLite figuring weight was the most important consideration. After firing it I was shocked and hurt when I capped off a cylinder of .357 Magnums. I never tried that again. In fact I have not shot it much since as even with .38's there is simply vicious recoil, more than my Model 69 with .44 Magnums.

So then I bought the 340 Pro Series in all stainless to have something I could enjoy shooting. The factory Trigicon sights are probably the best you can have on a J frame and the sights are excellent target sights as well.

Then just yesterday I spotted the Model 60 Lady Smith when stopping in at one of my favored gun shops to buy some more Critical Duty for the Black Pearl which has been my go to gun since I got it about a month ago.

I asked to look at it (fondle more accurately stated) and discovered a simply great action, very light and smooth, far better than any of my other revolvers.

After some haggling with the owner I got it for $675 with a Galco horsehide pocket holster and a box of Gold Dots and brought it home to the Wife. It's intended to be her personal firearm and seeing "Lady Smith" emblazoned on it as well as the beautiful Rosewood grips on it, she liked it.

She is a complete gun novice and I figured a revolver was the best (and only) choice for purse carry. It fit her hand well and the light DA pull was no problem for her.

Now my search is on for a very low recoil round to feed the Lady Smith (and my 360 AirLite as well). Wadcutters were recommended but I'm a bit reluctant to use an all lead bullet, not wanting to deal with cleaning and de-leading, not to mention environmental issues. (My home range is firing right into the hillside that feeds and fills our well).

Also a consideration is case length, will shooting .38's with the shorter case length make inserting the longer .357 cases difficult if not rigorously cleaned after every shooting session?

I'm not a reloader, but seems to me that the optimum solution is a very low power round in a .357 case. Do these exist, or will I have to have some custom reloads made up?

Finding a low recoil solution is the only way I'll be able to get the Wife to put in enough range time to be comfortable with her new gun.

digiroc

Shoot Well My Friends

Handloading would defiantly solve your dilemma, Loading some light 357 for the PD would be the ticket for easy cylinder cleaning and tailoring a load to your exact recoil tolerance. Maybe a press and a loading manual would get you moving in that direction, it's really a rewarding part of the firearm hobby if you ask me.

I own an M&P340 which is barely 2 ounces heavier than your 360PD. It is not fun to shoot with full house magnums but they really don't have all that much recoil. I have read others say they recoil excessively and it gives the wrong impression. It makes it sound as though they are uncontrollable. I shoot mine and have watched others carefully when they shoot it. I would have to say that it does not recoil all that much. In fact, far less than I anticipated. What it does do is transmit the shock of the round going off directly into your palm. Feels a lot like being slapped sharply on the palm with a ruler. It is not pleasant although I would wager that if being fired in self defense it isn't likely you would notice at all. I reload my own and found that with a 125 grain bullet loaded slightly hotter than midway between a magnum and a 38+P is very controllable and easy enough on the palm to be able to put a box or two through it without any issues. You really have to decide what you are going to use it for. I carry my M&P340 at about the 11 o'clock position and it is comfortable to wear all day. Does not even bother me when I'm driving. Loaded with factory 38's the 3" Lady Smith should be controllable for your wife although in my own experience wood grips tend to transmit a LOT more shock to your palm than a set of either Pacmayer Compacs or (my favorite) a pair of Uncle Mikes Combats. Those grips look beautiful but if you're going to shoot it get some rubber grips. The Compacs control the shock slightly better than the Uncle Mikes but the Mikes are, at least for me, more comfortable.

I don’t have any of the air weight or lighter j frames. But I have grown really fond of the Gold Dot short barrel 135gr +P rounds. They pack a punch but, for what they are, have a fairly low recoil. Fired back to back with the Remington Golden Sabres (is that the right name?) they were much more easy as far as the recoil and in my j frames (36 and 640) I found them to be more accurate to point of aim.

If you take the Crimson Trace grips off your 640 Pro Series and put them on your 360PD, you'll be astounded at the perceived reduction in recoil.

The best is the one you can shoot proficiently and care carrying at the time.

Try some wadcutters with those 357. Still penetrate and lower recoil with great accuracy imho.

For a lighter-recoiling load I would normally recommend the Federal 125gr Nyclad .38 Special, but it's been discontinued for a few years now. If you can find some, I'd recommend getting as much of it as you can. I'm holding on to the few boxes I have left.

For a currently available load, I would probably look at Winchester's 130gr Defend JHP .38 Special load. It's standard pressure, but at least in gel it seems to perform adequately (there doesn't seem to be any actual shootings with this load, AFAIK).

While not my first choice, 148gr WC would be an acceptable option for a lighter self defense load. I wouldn't worry too much about shooting lead bullets. Just clean the bore and chambers regularly and you shouldn't have any problems. If it's a real concern, you can always pick a 130gr FMJ load for practice.

There are mid-range .357 Magnum self defense loads available. Off-hand I can think of the Speer 135gr SB-GDHP and the Remington 125gr Golden Saber; I'm sure there are others. For practice loads, the WWB 110gr SJHP .357 Magnum load would be a good choice, though I think there might be a possible compatibility issue with scandium guns...I recall there being a warning against using lightweight bullets, but I don't know if that applies to all lightweight bullet loads or just full-power ones; WWB 110gr SJHP is not a full-power load. I don't own any scandium snubs so I can't say.

As far as issues regarding shooting .38 Specials in a .357 Magnum chamber, you should be fine as long as you regularly clean the chambers, i.e. after each range trip. Unless you're shooting really dirty ammo, the problem would really only surface if you didn't clean the chambers and let the crud build up. Only then would you need to engage in some aggressive cleaning. I had a 3" 65 and I fired both .38 Special and .357 Magnum rounds and never ran into problems, but I clean my guns after each range trip, and never had to resort to any aggressive methods. During a range trip, you can also avoid issues by shooting .357 Magnum rounds first, before .38 Specials.

One last tip...when you eject spent cases, point the muzzle straight up and let the cases fall out when you hit the extractor rod. If you remove the cases with the muzzle pointing down you increase the chances of unburnt powder falling from the case into the chamber. On a related note, this can also cause unburnt powder to get under the extractor star, which could potentially bind up the cylinder. It's always best to eject spent cases with the muzzle up.

Hope that helps.

Kudos on your nice trio of J's. I also have these three.

The 640 Pro is my favorite, and as others have suggested, it's all about the grips. I have huge Karl Nill wood grips on my 640 (makes it feel like a K-frame) and carry it all day at 4 o'clock without knowing it's there.

My second favorite is my M&P 340 with a Hogue Centennial Tamer grip (also pretty big but easy enough to conceal).

I like the Hogue Monogrip on the 360 PD -- truly eliminates the perceived recoil with any of the .38s or .38+P's I've put through it. I don't carry the ones with exposed hammers.

The round I shoot best is the Barnes no-lead HP 140gr .357.

You'll get it figured out for your wife and you -- just takes a bit of trial and error before you find what works best for each of you.

Slàinte,

Bob

Attached Images

	640 Pro, Karl Nill Centennial stocks.jpg (138.2 KB, 90 views)
	M&P 340, Hogue Centennieal Tamer grips.jpg (110.3 KB, 84 views)
	j's propped up by a .50.jpg (92.2 KB, 84 views)

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Wrangler of stray Chiefs
Bob

One more thing I would like to add, "The best carry piece is the one you will have with you". If it's too big or heavy (or has sharp points that poke you) it's not going to be on you. That range gun in your sock drawer isn't going to be of much help out on the street. If it's not easy to carry then the sock drawer is where it will likely spend most of it's life. For different people (and body types) this actually opens up a whole range of options. But, if you don't think it's comfortable enough to carry or get in and out of a car with, you probably won't carry it.

Lots of J's from which to choose nowadays.

Of all my assorted J's (more than half a dozen), my "carry" favorites are a 642-1 or a M&P 340 (I have a pair of each).

I prefer pocketable (pocket holstered) snubs with small grip stocks.

While I used to favor the 158gr LSWCHP/LHP +P's, with modern advancements in bullet design I typically favor one of the better JHP's in the 125-135gr range nowadays.

For a pristine 37-2DAO I picked up before I retired, I usually use one or another standard pressure JHP in the 110-125gr range, although I still try to keep some standard pressure 158gr LSWC put back.

In those infrequent instances when I practice with or carry Magnum loads in one of my M&P 340's, it's something between 125-145gr (but I don't think I've fired more than 300-odd rounds of Magnum through the M&P's). The 158gr & 180gr Magnum loads I've tried have too much felt recoil transferred against my palm.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

I have no interest in a 357 j frame. As a practical matter, you get noise, recoil and poor shooting.

I'm a big believer in target wadcutters in j frames, especially for novice shooters, since they encourage skill development, don't scare the shooter, and are very good sd rounds.

Not sexy, but effective. The shooter is also more likely to hit what they're shooting at.

Leading is not a problem.

Try the Hornady Critical Defense Lite for your wife's gun. It's a 90gr .38 Special which should be low recoil. And it's pink!

I had originally bought the CT grips with the air channel over the backstrap for the AirLite and they worked very well at reducing felt recoil:



After getting the 640 Pro and carrying it more than the AirLite I swapped the grips just to get the laser on the gun I carried more. I'll probably get another set for the AirLite as they cushion so well.

As for the wife's Lady Smith the Rosewood's will have to stay. She would no more want a set of rubber's on her gun than wearing galoshes over her Birkenstocks.

I did make a run up North to the Mastercraft Bullet Company and the owner there (Mike) has some 148 Gr TCJ/WC copper jacketed wadcutters and I picked up four 50 rd boxes from him.

They were very low recoil though the Lady Smith and even the AirLite became a *****cat shooting them. I did run some Gold Dot 135 Gr Magnums through it too. Much sharper recoil for sure but manageable for me, although the slick wood grips can move if you don't put the squeeze on them with Magnum loads.

The Wife fired it and said it hurt. She was able to shoot about a 5' group at 10 yards. She has a ways to go. I may have to go back to my original thought for her with a 617 in .22 LR.

digiroc

I thought I was finished spending money on J's - I have a coupla 442's, a 360 (.38), a 640 and a 60 - all but one bought used. Now, you folks start posting photos of 640 Pro's and 60 LS's!! Present situation, I can barely afford to go to Chik-Fil-A twice a week - looks like I'm going to have to transition to crackers and ketchup to accumulate some money to keep up with the Jones's here on SWF ...

Edited to add: is the Model 60 LS current production - or have they been discontinued? It looks like a 2.5-barrel so maybe a full-length ejection rod?

I like Hornady, though I've never seen that one! I'll see if I can get ahold of some.

digiroc

Shoot Well My Friends

That would be this one:


If only I could carry it all the time. It's actually not too bad AISW in sticky holster.

I did get 200 rounds of copper jacketed wadcutters and they shoot really well with low recoil.

digiroc

Shoot Well My Friends

Can't say which is "best." That comes with personal use and experience. I also agree with Rpg. I personally have no desire for a J-frame in .357. I own and have shot some .38 Airweights that will wreck one's hand with regular factory loads, not even Plus-P.

Having rambled on that, I would take the Lady Smith over the remaining two any day of the week.

Try a search at ammoseek.com - they list a number of sources for Hornady Critical Defense Lite - 90 grain. Hmmm... think I might try them myself - might be the solution to the recoil issues with my snubbies. Thanks Lobster!

It might be prudent to bear in mind that in earlier days it wasn't uncommon for some folks using the discontinued 95gr Winchester +P STHP to report they experienced a noticeably low point-of-impact compared to their point-of-aim. That was back in the days when revolvers were still in duty holsters, and some lightweight-for-caliber loads could produce a lower POI than might be expected.

It might be handy to get an extra box and fire a cylinder load, for accuracy, at different distances somewhere within the range you anticipate possibly having to use it, just to get an idea for where the short barrels are going to put the hits.

Personally, I don't seem to experience as much of a potential POA/POI difference using JHP loads of at least 110gr, in my snubs.

Something else to perhaps give some thought to is that dropping the bullet weight for the .38 Spl down into the 90gr range, especially fired out of a 2" (or less) barrel, is probably close to turning the .38 Spl into a .380ACP.

85-95gr bullet weights is where most of the modern .380 JHP's fall, although Remington does make their 102gr Golden Sabre.

I'm not offering that thought to denigrate the .380, as I carry one often enough when I don't pocket one of my snubs. It's just that one of the arguable advantages of the .38 Spl is being able to add some bullet weight/mass to the relatively low power cartridge.

This is all a matter of figuring out where you're satisfied to make the inevitable compromise with the little snubs, though. After all, some folks still believe they're well served loading 148gr target wadcutters. They're content to give up some extra velocity for low recoil, controllability and accuracy. Also, the caliber-wide hole punched by the wadcutter, and any potential for it to yaw, and make a wider wound track (meaning the length of bullet if it tumbles end-for-end) probably can't be easily dismissed.

Pick your degree of acceptable compromise. Try to gain the potential advantages that you feel might most benefit you, in your gun, when you're shooting it.

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Ret LE Firearms inst & armorer

Some great posts here! Rather than 'quote' entire passages...

1. The 340 M&P is easier to fire/control than it's PD brother. Seems impossible that the 2 oz. extra of the steel cylinder matters, yet it does. Grip selection can be a factor: I find little difference with the PD. Factory boot-grip/knockoffs work on the M&P. The slightly longer 3-finger UM copy covers the backstrap and will still fit in a pocket.

2. My apologies to fellow "J-hound" Continental OP: Do NOT use the 110gr mag loads in the PD. There will be dramatic cylinder erosion: wish I could locate the thread with the pix of the Ti cylinder literally eaten away by the "No less than 120 grain" ammo. The 110 Mag loads work well in the steel-cylinder M&P. CCI Blazer 158gr Magnum medium rounds are ok in both, but the 5th round may show crimp-jump.

3. If the gun is too uncomfortable to carry regularly and will be left in the sock drawer, then carry the sock drawer, also. Good shooting to all.

Kaaskop49
Shield #5103

digiroc, best, I can't say. But I'll share what several women in my extended family preferred. The S&W 642 38 Spcl. I wouldn't want it to get around, but I've been known to carry a 642 myself. I favor the Centennial line due to no external hammer to snag, and only one mode of operation. Doesn't get much simpler. I know it's not the, latest, sexiest, most devastating wonder bullet available, but factory wadcutter ammunition might be something to consider. Due to soft recoil and mild report, your wife might actually shoot it a bit. And within my humble experience, having a gun, knowing when to use it, and being able to use it effectively is what matters, not the most powerful caliber, or latest bullet.......ymmv

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

Of the three the 640 Pro gets the nod as carry gun. With the excellent night sights and laser it offers the best chance of shots on target. The cushioning grips make it the only one to comfortably fire full house Magnums.



The Lady Smith is the most beautiful J frame and the excellent trigger makes it a viable carry gun, especially if you like to show it to friends (BBQ gun?).



The standard sights are difficult to get a quick sight picture unless shooting at paper. I have a Big Dot front sight coming which I ordered when buying the gun. Once it is on the LS it will be much more effective in a defensive role.

The AirLite is clearly the easiest to carry due to it's extreme low weight, also the hardest to deliver accurate fire and followup shots. The fiber optic front sight is great in daylight but not so good as the Sun goes down.

The AirLite is delegated as a backup gun, the only one that can be carried comfortably in my ankle holster, (not a preferred carry method). I'll be getting another CT laser for it mostly to get the air channel on the backstrap, but the laser is handy too.

Once the Lady Smith gets it's Big Dot I think it will be an excellent carry option. The small and slick wood stocks will cover nicely without snagging on my shirt or jacket.

The great trigger is a big plus, but it's beauty is it's most endearing feature, and the one the Wife likes best.

digiroc

Shoot Well My Friends

No worries. Like I said, I recalled there being an incompatibility between lightweight bullets and scandium guns, but not the specifics. Thanks for providing the details.

I shot some of that 90 grain FTX "pink" ammo recently and was surprised at the blast and recoil. I didn't find it significantly different than the 110 grain standard pressure FTX. I would recommend trying 148 grain Federal Gold Match wadcutter ammo if recoil is a problem.

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Centennial Every Day

Great info above, so much that I have little to add except to emphasize the importance of a different grip- the stock grips on many guns offer little to no recoil absorption. The houge mongrip work best for me and many like the pachmyer grips. The pachmyer are heavier and shift the balance of the gun to toward the hand which is quite nice.
Next up is of course a bit of range time as many seemingly good combinations don't end up being as good as hoped.

Wadcutters were thought of by many as a reasonable or even excellent self defense round, especially from a short barrel. Additionally they are often very low recoil and the same round can be used for practice and carry.

My wife bought her "ladysmith" because see said it was "pretty". She don't shoot it at all because of the recoil. But with this info on light ammo I may be able to change that!! THANKS!! sdb321

Attached Images

IMG_0222.jpg (116.8 KB, 26 views)

The Big Dots came in and are now installed on the Lady Smith. It changes the LS from a pretty gun to a pretty serious weapon.

Just settle the big white orb into the U channel and it provides excellent combat accuracy. The ammo pictured are the cooper jacketed wadcutters I got for reduced recoil as well as some 357's and 38 +P's the weapon is capable of firing.

digiroc

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Shoot Well My Friends

The transitional Lady Smith from the early 1990's may be the best J Frame ever made. . .only chambered in 38 Special but fully ready to move on with the upcoming 357 model. Like most on the forum, I have no use for a J in 357.

Attached Images

M60-7 Ladysmith.jpg (94.6 KB, 21 views)

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Dr. B

Nice LS Doc, you may have no use for a for a 357 in your J frame, but having a 357 rated J frame at least gives you the option.

Supposed stronger construction (are they really that differnt ?) may be a consideration, even if a +P 38 is all it will ever see.

digiroc

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Shoot Well My Friends