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Old 05-11-2018, 10:26 AM
Nalapombu Nalapombu is offline
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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Default Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??

Hey all,

I saw an interesting back and forth somewhere a couple days ago where the subject was what 357mag Snubby to carry. Not long after it started the debate kinda switched to whether packing 357mag loads actually gives you an edge over the 38 special and 38 Special +P loads. Quite a few were saying that since the barrel is as short as it is the 357mag doesn't have enough barrel to achieve its ideal velocity and therefore you are better off using a good 38 Special load with less recoil for better and more accurate follow up shots.

I don't know if that's true or not. That's why I thought I'd ask you guys (and gals) cause I know you all have lots of experience in this area and will know for sure.

If you pick up a sweet 357mag Snubby like the M&P340 or the 640 pro, what would you put in it to carry, full house 357 mag or a proven 38 special +P load?

Lastly....if you were going to carry a 357mag Snub....which one would you choose and why?


Thanks for your time and help.
Have a good weekend.
Larry
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:33 AM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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I'll let others argue the science and statistics behind the rounds they use, but from my experience in just shooting my firearms, and from the fact that the 38 Special is a good defense round, that's what I load in ALL my .357 and .38 Special revolvers, no matter what they're rated for. I load with what I practice with, and that's plain Jane .38 Special.
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:37 AM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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Here is what I measured out of mine:

Quote:
The difference between the low end 38+p and the 357 magnum:

473 fps 315 ft lbs energy

The difference between the high end 38+p and the 357 magnum:

282 fps 204 ft lbs of energy
The recoil is way more though so it is slower on followups and split times go up.

If you want a jump from 38 in a snub. Get a 44 charter bulldog. Bigger bullet, less recoil than the 38
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:44 AM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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Read Greg Ellifritz on " Handgun Stopping Power " . Free on the internet. So far it is the best research I have found on caliber comparisons in real world self defense shootings.

The quick summary is that caliber makes almost no difference when talking about the common handgun calibers. Rifles and shotguns work significantly better.

BTW if anyone has seen better research please post it here . I am looking for any updates. Thanks.
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:46 AM
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If you're asking whether it's worth it to use .357, that's a subjective argument.

It's pretty hard to argue the physics between the two, short barrel or not.
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Old 05-11-2018, 10:54 AM
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Most of my life I've been a J-frame guy who loves snubbies. I have carried a stainless model 60 in .38 spl with a 1 7/8 bbl., and a Model 60 .357 mag with 2 1/4 bbl.

I think there is a vast difference between the two calibers. The .357 magnum is a devastating weapon, particularly when used with the appropriate ammo loads for short-barreled guns. Follow-up shots are not complicated, provided that you have practiced, practiced, practiced and are comfortable in resetting the trigger and bringing the gun back to center mass. There is no other way to do this (i.e., master the caliber and shot placement) without dedicated practice.

Lately, I have been carrying my newer acquisition, the S&W L-Frame 686+ with 2 1/2 bbl and .357 magnum. Obviously it is larger and not for pocket carry, but the benefits of its weight and size help control beyond expectations. This model is, from posts here, likely S&Ws most popular revolver (in different barrel lengths). the 686+ handles .357 magnum rounds surprisingly easily and makes .38 spl seem like .22LR. Your mileage may vary.

Whatever you do, enjoy this great "hobby" of ours, get good at it, practice safety at all times, and develop the high degree of self-confidence that you might need if you carry on a regular basis.

Rich
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:05 AM
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Another thing to check is the Luckygunner tests of 38 special and 357 Magnum.

357 Magnum gives significantly higher muzzle energy and better expansion -- even in 2" barrels.

It may be a bit slower getting back on target for a second shot.

That's a matter of practice. Shooting 357 Magnum requires more practice.

But if you score a well placed center of mass shot with a 357 Magnum you may not need a second shot.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:07 AM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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First of all, look at this: www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/8/


Here are some of my personal chrono results with Speer 135-gr short barrel Gold Dot hollow point handloads - I recall both of these loadings were developed from the Speer # 14, but I take no responsibility for your loads:



.38 Special (5950' > sea level): 6.4 grains of Power Pistol, standard primer, 1 7/8" 37-2: M 854.3 fps/ES 78.9/SD 40.66


.357 Magnum (same range): 9.6 grains of Power Pistol, magnum primer, 2 1/8" 640-1: M 1136 fps/S 88.49/D 33.22






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Old 05-11-2018, 11:07 AM
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There is no doubt that even in short, snubby barrels the .357 Magnum will generate more velocity than a .38 Special, +P or standard pressure, given the same bullet weight.

However, as has been pointed out above, in the real world the service calibers all perform about the same. So, taking "stopping power" off the table, what we are left with is that the .357 Magnum will generate more recoil, muzzle blast, and, depending on the load, muzzle flash.

To me, whatever velocity gains the .357 Magnum has is overshadowed by the higher difficulty in getting quick hits on target. For self defense, I don't see a reason to go magnum when .38 Special +P will do the job with better shootability.

But, if you prefer the .357 Magnum in a snub, it's reliable in your gun, and you can shoot it well, there's nothing wrong with doing so.

Just my opinion.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:12 AM
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I am pretty sure that I do not want to be hit with either one and neither would an assailant.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Here is what I measured out of mine:



The recoil is way more though so it is slower on followups and split times go up.

If you want a jump from 38 in a snub. Get a 44 charter bulldog. Bigger bullet, less recoil than the 38
I'll say that my bulldog can be quite the hand smacker...more than any .38 J frame I ever owned. With that said, I'd personally rather have 44 spcl vs 38 spcl in a pocket gun.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by typetwelve View Post
I'll say that my bulldog can be quite the hand smacker...more than any .38 J frame I ever owned. With that said, I'd personally rather have 44 spcl vs 38 spcl in a pocket gun.
Weird, my experience is the exact opposite. The bulldog has less recoil and is faster back on target. Quicker split times and more accurate.

I did a couple recoil comparisons:

I carry 200 not 240 in the Bulldog:




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Old 05-11-2018, 11:37 AM
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Always a subjective topic.

I'm no ballistics guru so I tend to believe those who say the .357 is more lethal. Bears are only reason I pack .357s in my 640 Pro or M&P 340. If I'm ever in a "deal" with a bear I hope the loud report and muzzle blast will be enough to defuse the "deal." (Caveat: if I'm not in bear country I pack a Baby Chiefs with 158gr rnl.)

I load up with Barnes 140gr. lead-free HPs because out of the seven types of ammo I've tried in it those are the ones I shoot best. I tried plain-Jane .38s, .38 +P, and short barrel .357s. I'm on target (POA = POI) and have no trouble with rapid fire with the Barnes .357s.

Could I teach myself to be as accurate with the other ammo? Probably, but the Barnes takes the "try" out of the equation. Practice, practice, practice = confidence and comfort.

I cannot end my opinion piece, here, without touting the Karl Nill Centennial grips as the best part of either package. Feels like K-frames with these.
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Old 05-11-2018, 11:37 AM
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There is no argument about the 357 delivering more energy than a 38 +P in any barrel length. Anyone telling you otherwise is trying to convince themself of something that's untrue. The real question is wether or not you can control and accurately shoot the 357 versus the 38, if you can't then you should stick with the 38. Also the comparison to a rifle is moot. We are talking about handgun calibers, not rifle versus handgun. And let me ask the people who say there is no difference in handgun caliber, if you had to be shot in the butt with either a 22, 380 or a 357, 44 Magnum, which would you choose? I guarantee nobody is picking the magnums...
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:02 PM
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The short answer is "Yes": early degeneration of your hand.
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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I once owned a Charter snub, in .44 Special.

I knew that the factory loads were a bit weak, so thought it would be a soft kicker.

WOW ! I have never fired a gun with such painful recoil, and I own several .357 Mags.
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:07 PM
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Ballisticsbytheinch dot com shows the comparisons in muzzle energy.

More energy is more energy, period. Is it enough? Too much? As Paul Harrell says, "You be the judge."
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:18 PM
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There are two advantages to jumping up to a .357 snubby. The first is that you now have the option of firing .357 even if you choose not to. You will never hear anyone tell you that they sold their pistol because it was "just too versatile". The other advantage is bullet velocity. As has been pointed out already, regardless of the fact that a shorter barrel restricts some of the Magnum's advantages it is still far and away more powerful than the .38+p. I carry an M&P340 which is one of the lightest Magnums out there. It is not "pleasant" shooting magnums but it is controllable and surprisingly more accurate than you might expect. There are many different defense scenarios. The truth though is that your attacker is not likely to be the suspicious character blocking your path at the end of the alley or a mad man charging at you from half a block away. In all likelihood they will be on you before you are even aware that anything is wrong. They do it for a living and they've probably had lots of practice. If that time ever comes which would you rather be pulling from your pocket, a .38 special or a .357 Magnum.

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Old 05-11-2018, 12:20 PM
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As most members already know about me, I'm still waiting for the J-frame chambered for five 12-gauge slugs... It's your call.

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Old 05-11-2018, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
I once owned a Charter snub, in .44 Special.

I knew that the factory loads were a bit weak, so thought it would be a soft kicker.

WOW ! I have never fired a gun with such painful recoil, and I own several .357 Mags.
I agree...recoil is highly subjective but I can say 100% that when I take my Charter out for other shooters not familiar with it, they are always shocked at how hard that little stinker kicks. It's like the noisy cricket on Men in Black, no one expects it to bite that much.

In comparison, my 4" 629 with full magnum loads is much easier on the hand.

I ran a box of these here through that Charter:

50 Round Box - 44 Special 200 Grain SJHP Hollow Point Ammo by Fiocchi - 44SA | SGAmmo.com

My hand meat was sore the next day.
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Old 05-11-2018, 01:06 PM
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How do you compare the 686+(3"),627PC+8(2 3/4") and the 69(which bbl.?)? I am on the fence between these 3 and would appreciate some advice on the above.Thank you.

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Old 05-11-2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petepeterson View Post
If you're asking whether it's worth it to use .357, that's a subjective argument.

It's pretty hard to argue the physics between the two, short barrel or not.
Agreed! I've just never shot .357 very well OP. I shoot 9mm, .38Special & +P's, .40caliber, .45acp/super, .44Special & Magnum all really well. I carry "J frames" a lot recently and have carried them a significant amount of times over the last 3 years or so. Buffalo Bore 158grain soft cast LHP's and 158 Hard Cast full wad cutters are what I carry. Front strong side pocket in a Desantis "Nemesis" and a NY reload on my strong side in a Bianchi M58 holster is my preferred set-up. I can dump a cylinder fast into the 9 and 10 rings @ 10 yards into a silhouette. It's up to you... but you really can't argue with the pop of a .357magnum whether out of a 2" barrel or not. I would NOT want to be hit in the navel or lower abdomen with one lets just put it that way. I think heavy for caliber, 158 grain .38Special+P's are a great compromise between a good/solid standard pressure .38Special and a .357mag. It really depends on how much practice are you willing to put into training with the gun and carry load to get proficient. I know for me under stress my groups open up 2-2.5 times compared to that of unstressed fire. YMMV...

To answer your question though, I would carry a Model 60 Smith with Magna's and a Tyler-T grip adapter loaded with a heavy .38Special+P from Buffalo Bore or Underwood if I went the route you are thinking OP.
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:39 PM
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You will find some extensive discussion here:

Speer 135 grain Gold Dot 38 Sp+P and 357 Magnum
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:04 PM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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And let me ask the people who say there is no difference in handgun caliber, if you had to be shot in the butt with either a 22, 380 or a 357, 44 Magnum, which would you choose? I guarantee nobody is picking the magnums...
That is one of the most worthless arguments anyone ever makes in discussions like these. I don't want to be shot by ANYTHING, not even a BB.
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:36 PM
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I would absolutely agree that a fatal shot from a .22 is just as deadly as a fatal shot from a big bore Magnum. Fatal is fatal, period. I would tend to think that the biggest differences between them would occur during non-fatal hits. I would think that the increased severity of the magnum wound could make a substantial difference in ending the confrontation.
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:48 PM
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This is one of the reasons I am thinking 44 SPL./44 Mag.
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:49 PM
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Like I said for me? Recoil management and accuracy of follow up shots one handed, two handed, stationary, and on the move. Caliber wars are old and busted.

My personal opinion is the 44 special in a 200gr hollowpoint out of a charter bulldog has less recoil than 38+P 135gr speer gold dots.

My carry preferences from least recoil and most accurate follow ups to most are:

148gr wadcutter 38 special Smith 442 (least recoil)
200gr speer gold dot 44 special Charter
135gr Speer gold dot 38 +P Smith 442
135gr Speer gold dot 357 Magnum Ruger LCR (most recoil)

Your mileage and experiences may vary.
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Old 05-11-2018, 05:29 PM
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Setting aside the already discussed question of the power difference between 38 and 357, the next question in my mind is whether 357 is too much for me to shoot in a J frame.

Yes, it is.

I wish it wasn't so. I'd love to carry magnum loads in all my guns. But the simple fact is I flinch like crazy when I shoot a full tilt magnum in any of my guns except my LCR327 and my 6.5" 629. Because I'm able to shoot the LCR without an issue, I would like to try the KLCR 357 one day, and it would be at the top of my list for a pocket carry 357. For a belt carried 357, there's no question I'd get a 627 PC snubbie. I really should sell off some of my other 357s and get one of those.

Personally, I opt for low power magnums or hot SPLs in all my magnum guns for both practice and carry. I plan to start handloading light magnum 180gr XTPs for the 3" 629 I carry most days, and may eventually do the same if I decide to start carrying a 357 again. For now I just carry my 629 loaded with hot Underwood 44 SPL and a 637 loaded with .38 +P in my pocket.
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Old 05-11-2018, 07:25 PM
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Hey all,

I saw an interesting back and forth somewhere a couple days ago where the subject was what 357mag Snubby to carry. Not long after it started the debate kinda switched to whether packing 357mag loads actually gives you an edge over the 38 special and 38 Special +P loads. Quite a few were saying that since the barrel is as short as it is the 357mag doesn't have enough barrel to achieve its ideal velocity and therefore you are better off using a good 38 Special load with less recoil for better and more accurate follow up shots.

I don't know if that's true or not. That's why I thought I'd ask you guys (and gals) cause I know you all have lots of experience in this area and will know for sure.

If you pick up a sweet 357mag Snubby like the M&P340 or the 640 pro, what would you put in it to carry, full house 357 mag or a proven 38 special +P load?

Lastly....if you were going to carry a 357mag Snub....which one would you choose and why?


Thanks for your time and help.
Have a good weekend.
Larry
I think when people compare the two, they are talking about fps most of the time. I will always believe 357 is stronger than 38 when fired from the same barrel. However, a 38 should do the trick just fine. You'd probably never need a 357, but I always figured why not?? Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. My Buffalo Bore 180gr LFN slugs will punch through both sides of a car (provided you aren't shooting the engine block) and will still do a very good deal of damage to someone on the other side. I can't say whether or not a 38 could, I don't know the answer to that. I also think to myself, if caliber doesn't matter, why do I bother buying anything but a 22?? Statics seem to show that caliber isn't nearly as important as shot placement and that most calibers are about as effective as any other. At point blank range (which I'd imagine most self defense situations occur) a bullet to someone's face, 9mm, 38, 40, 357, 44, 45 or anything else is probably going to kill someone. I carry a 38 all the time, but sometimes, depending on where I'm going, I'll carry my Taurus 605 loaded with the 180gr Buffalo Bore 357 rounds just because. They are some vicious little rounds and I can honestly say (while I'd rather not get shot at all) I'd significantly rather get shot in, oh say the arm with a 38 than one of those Buffalo Bore rounds because the BB round may just take my arm off at the point of impact. 38 may do the same, but if I HAD to pick one to be shot with, it opt for 38 over a 357. That's just my opinion on the matter, but they have to be stronger. Again, other rounds may be equally effective, but the 357 HAS to be stronger which could serve a purpose, or then again it may not at all.

Another thing, about fps, I think people make way too big a deal out of that. Yes 1,400 fts is much faster than 1,000 fps but what does that mean? In a measuring system we all understand better, if something is moving at 1,000 fps it is traveling roughly 681 mph. That's pretty darn fast! At close range, how fast does one really need the slug to move? Anything over 681 mph is just for show. 1,000 fps is (not including end zones) 3 1/3 football fields laying down in a row every second it travels. It's almost the speed of sound (1,087 fps/741 mph). How much faster could you really need? Now that doesn't mean I don't love bigger and faster rounds, but for self defense, I mean that should absolutely suffice.

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Old 05-11-2018, 07:35 PM
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I'm still waiting for the J-frame chambered for five 12-gauge slugs...
Magnums?
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Old 05-11-2018, 08:04 PM
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I have a newer model 60 rated for 357s that I use for EDC. I have shot 38 Spl, 38 Spl +P, and 357s to see how well I can handle each one. In the end I can handle the recoil for 38 Spl and 38 Spl +Ps but not 357s. As I result I carry it with 38 Spl +Ps.
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Old 05-11-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dr. mordo View Post
Setting aside the already discussed question of the power difference between 38 and 357, the next question in my mind is whether 357 is too much for me to shoot in a J frame.

Yes, it is.

I wish it wasn't so. I'd love to carry magnum loads in all my guns. But the simple fact is I flinch like crazy when I shoot a full tilt magnum in any of my guns except my LCR327 and my 6.5" 629. Because I'm able to shoot the LCR without an issue, I would like to try the KLCR 357 one day, and it would be at the top of my list for a pocket carry 357. For a belt carried 357, there's no question I'd get a 627 PC snubbie. I really should sell off some of my other 357s and get one of those.

Personally, I opt for low power magnums or hot SPLs in all my magnum guns for both practice and carry. I plan to start handloading light magnum 180gr XTPs for the 3" 629 I carry most days, and may eventually do the same if I decide to start carrying a 357 again. For now I just carry my 629 loaded with hot Underwood 44 SPL and a 637 loaded with .38 +P in my pocket.



I agree with you on the .44Special and the 200grain Gold Dot being my favorite anti-personnel/criminal combination for sure!

For conceal-ability... I'm happily carrying a pair of "J" frames on the nightly neighborhood dog walks and around town currently. One is filled with 158gr soft cast Lead Hollow Points from Buffalo Bore and the other with 158gr Hard Cast full wad-cutters from Buffalo Bore as well... standard pressure and 2 Bianchi speed strips of course.

For the woods and sometimes around town the 629 Deluxe 3" barreled "N" frame with your favorite load "Doc-M", the 200grain Gold Dot, standard pressure is hard to beat and with minimal recoil. For the woods, same 3" 629 with Underwood's 255 grain "Keith's" in .44Specials or their .44Specials in 200grain Hard Cast are absolutely devastating on thick pelted animals...

Here is a pic of my "New York Reload"... Maybe we should call it call this the "Adirondacks Edition" but from deep Georgia, hahahaha! Enjoy my boys!

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Old 05-12-2018, 01:19 AM
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My 640 Pro J-frame with Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain 357 Magnums is quite “spirited” in my hands. Spirited, but very controllable.

The same rounds in my slightly heavier 2.5” Model 19 are a piece of cake.

As a bonus, the Hornady 125 grain Critical Defense rounds did well in the Lucky Gunner ballistics tests for 357 Magnum snubbies.

Remember, every shooter has a different level of recoil sensitivity and recoil management. I say this not to pass judgement, but as a matter of fact. Some will cringe at 357 Magnums in a J-frame while others love shooting 44 Magnums in a lightweight revolver. You will have to pick your level of comfort.

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S&W Model 19-4
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:55 AM
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Shooting a 357 snubby is a matter of practice and confidence derived from practice. Physics is physics not opinion. You can always choose to shoot 38 spl in a magnum snubby but not the other way around. I carry a S&W Model 60 and choose to load it with 158 gr 357 JHP Magnums. I’m confident it’ll do the job. That’s what I do, not saying others should do as I do, they should do what they think is best for them.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:21 AM
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The only thing gained is more noise and much more painful experience. Ballistics aside; your .38 special with a big bullet will be just as effective in a social encounter as any +P or .357.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmo View Post
My 640 Pro J-frame with Hornady Critical Defense 125 grain 357 Magnums is quite “spirited” in my hands. Spirited, but very controllable.

The same rounds in my slightly heavier 2.5” Model 19 are a piece of cake.

As a bonus, the Hornady 125 grain Critical Defense rounds did well in the Lucky Gunner ballistics tests for 357 Magnum snubbies.

Remember, every shooter has a different level of recoil sensitivity and recoil management. I say this not to pass judgement, but as a matter of fact. Some will cringe at 357 Magnums in a J-frame while others love shooting 44 Magnums in a lightweight revolver. You will have to pick your level of comfort.

Edmo


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S&W Model 19-4
Quoted for truth. You have to find your own comfort level by trying lots of different platforms, handguns sizes, and loads. Once decided upon platform and size; especially with a good Smith revolver... you can find or tailor the loads to exactly your liking. I find I enjoy hot and heavy for caliber .44Specials in my 3" 629 the best for a woods load. For around town carry, it's a pair of "J" frames with heavy for caliber 158's, loaded slightly hot, just under the +P spec. There are so many winning combinations!

Edit: I forgot to say beautiful M19... That is a great piece!

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Old 05-12-2018, 07:14 AM
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Shooting a 357 snubby is a matter of practice and confidence derived from practice. Physics is physics not opinion. You can always choose to shoot 38 spl in a magnum snubby but not the other way around. I carry a S&W Model 60 and choose to load it with 158 gr 357 JHP Magnums. Iím confident itíll do the job. Thatís what I do, not saying others should do as I do, they should do what they think is best for them.
Truth: It's why I'm glad my first .44 was/is a 3" 629... It see's 80/20% .44Specials to .44Magnums.

I enjoy .38Special so much I'm looking for a snub .357 right now that I can shoot all the standard velocity, +P, and even warmer .38Special loads with zero worries.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:17 PM
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The answer you seek is:
M&P340
.38 Special +P

Perfect balance. Retired cop here, one year ago. Thought I’d carry my Glock 43 mostly, but my new M&P340 shoots easily with any of the .38 Special +P short barrel loads.

Don’t underestimate the need for smooth follow-up shots.

And don’t fall for the most asinine internet advice I’ve see, “I practice with .38s and carry .357s”

Cheers
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Old 05-12-2018, 07:27 PM
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...donít fall for the most asinine internet advice Iíve seen, ďI practice with .38s and carry .357sĒ
The other favorite is "you won't feel the recoil in a gunfight"

I may not feel the pain, but I'm pretty sure the nasty recoil will slow down my follow-up shot when that 125gr 357 magnum lights off in a airweight pocket gun.
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Old 05-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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Nasty recoil?? While I have noticed some pain I have never experienced any "nasty recoil". Which airweight do you carry?
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Old 05-12-2018, 08:20 PM
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Nasty recoil?? While I have noticed some pain I have never experienced any "nasty recoil". Which airweight do you carry?
I'm sure he just means sharp muzzle flip... of which the .357 is known for in anything "J" frame with a 1 & 7/8th inch barrel. Good round, good gun, just takes a long time to learn to shoot it fast and adequately.
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Old 05-12-2018, 08:53 PM
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I'm sure he just means sharp muzzle flip... of which the .357 is known for in anything "J" frame with a 1 & 7/8th inch barrel. Good round, good gun, just takes a long time to learn to shoot it fast and adequately.
Correct, and thanks for the assist.
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:01 PM
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What you get by stepping up to 357 form 38 in a snubby is an increase in muzzle energy. You also gain dazzling muzzle flash. The recoil is uncomfortable in a steel frame and down right painful and nerve damaging in an airweight design. Recovery for follow up shots are slowed. Stopping power is more based on bullet type and placement of shot. The 357 is much better used in a full sized service revolver for 99.99% of shooters regardless of what is claimed.Much more controllable and vastly increased power from longer barrels.
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Old 05-13-2018, 01:09 AM
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I carry a snub by in 357 sometimes with a 2 3/4” barrel. But I carry the 44 mag more.
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Old 05-13-2018, 07:41 AM
HamHands HamHands is offline
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Originally Posted by Firesticks View Post
What you get by stepping up to 357 form 38 in a snubby is an increase in muzzle energy. You also gain dazzling muzzle flash. The recoil is uncomfortable in a steel frame and down right painful and nerve damaging in an airweight design. Recovery for follow up shots are slowed. Stopping power is more based on bullet type and placement of shot. The 357 is much better used in a full sized service revolver for 99.99% of shooters regardless of what is claimed.Much more controllable and vastly increased power from longer barrels.
Agreed! For carrying my "J" frames... I feel a 150grain hard cast full wad-cutter and/or a 158grain soft cast LHP moving @ 850fps out of the 1 &7/8th inch barrel to be the happy spot for shoot-ability while having the right amount of punch on the other end for "Urban/Suburban Carry."
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Old 05-13-2018, 01:02 PM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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Perceived recoil is subjective; like some, I prefer the .44 special in a medium sized snubby (296) over a J frame with any typical duty load in .38 or 9mm (my sole J frame now is a 940). I found that only the WC target load or standard velocity 158 grain SWC is a good choice in a J frame. YMMV, but I'll bet a lot that for the vast majority (98+%) of shooters, if tested with a shot timer and held to a reasonable standard, the .357 in a J frame is simply not a good choice.

To me, a J frame is almost NEVER a sole carry gun, but is only a BUG, and to be used more or less at contact range. As such, I am looking for decent penetration and controllability, not maximum potential performance that is almost certainly wasted. In my 940, I carry 147 grain gold dot at standard pressure and velocity, because it is a proven load and the least obnoxious to shoot.
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Old 05-13-2018, 03:46 PM
Kifaru Kifaru is offline
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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I agree that perceived recoil is subjective. What seems unbearably punishing for one person, another might find invigorating. In order to get an objective sense of recoil, put it on the clock. How do your split times differ between standard pressure .38 Special, +P, and 357 Magnum in your carry gun? Secondly, does that difference matter? If you can put 5 rounds into 5" at 5 yards in 5 seconds or less from low ready consistently, you can build from there.

Discomfort is indeed highly subjective, but physics is not. No matter how well you can shoot .357, you will be able to shoot .38 better. Remember that the goal is not the most possible velocity/energy, but enough velocity/energy for the bullet to do its job. And I think we all know that a solid hit from a .38 will always beat a marginal hit (or a miss) with a .357. No one can give the answer to anyone else. All I can say is test it for yourself, and be honest with yourself about the results.
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Old 05-13-2018, 05:35 PM
HamHands HamHands is offline
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
Perceived recoil is subjective; like some, I prefer the .44 special in a medium sized snubby (296) over a J frame with any typical duty load in .38 or 9mm (my sole J frame now is a 940). I found that only the WC target load or standard velocity 158 grain SWC is a good choice in a J frame. YMMV, but I'll bet a lot that for the vast majority (98+%) of shooters, if tested with a shot timer and held to a reasonable standard, the .357 in a J frame is simply not a good choice.

To me, a J frame is almost NEVER a sole carry gun, but is only a BUG, and to be used more or less at contact range. As such, I am looking for decent penetration and controllability, not maximum potential performance that is almost certainly wasted. In my 940, I carry 147 grain gold dot at standard pressure and velocity, because it is a proven load and the least obnoxious to shoot.
I certainly prefer my 696 filled with 200gr Gold Dot .44Specials for sure for around town; for Woods, 255 grain Underwood HC Keith's are the ticket. But for nighttime neighborhood walks with dogs, and CVS runs before it closes... It's much easier to pocket (2) "J" frames; strong side front pocket and rear pocket in pocket holsters and/or a Bianchi M58 Holster.

As to the emboldened/highlighted... you are correct in regards to both of those loadings at being very effective; there are others too though! Heavy hard cast full wad cutters are absolutely devastating. I only thought they were good for punching paper until I contacted Tim Sundles and he recommended them for J frames. Then I read a couple dozen instances/first hand experiences from ex-cops that carried this load in the 60's, 70's, and 80's that swore by them to be a fight stopper. Other similar accounts were with the semi-wad cutter HP's made of soft cast lead, no jacket, again, pushed to about 850fps from a 2" J frame Smith or D frame Colt. So when I carry my J's, one is loaded with Buffalo Bore full wads and the other is with the "BB" semi-wad HP soft casts. And like you said, split times are very good with both loads.

Good job on the 147 standard pressure GD's. I've been carrying them for years in my CZ P-01. An equal load that I use interchangeably is the 147 grain, standard pressure, Federal HST's. Both are stellar!

Lastly, a pic is of an IDPA target @ 10 yards with the aforementioned M36 "J's", each loaded with the above mentioned loads.


Pic of my 12"x18" popper plate from a farm shoot day I organized last summer. 90% of these hits are at 20+ yards; with above mentioned loads out of both my J frame Smiths and my D frame Colt. Both my brothers "J" frames and two other friends with their J frame Smith...


Last pic is of my "Woods Carry" primary and back-up. My 629 with the 255 Keiths from Underwood and M36 with the Hard Cast full-wads from Buffalo Bore... makes for a great combo!

Last edited by HamHands; 05-13-2018 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 05-13-2018, 08:12 PM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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I carry .357 Silvertips in my nickel 19-3. They kick more because they are more powerful than .38 Specials. If the short barrel neutered them down to .38 level, they would kick the same, right?

I’ve read shooting reports where these old fashioned Silvertips worked just fine out of 2 1/2” and 3” barrels. Plus, they look cool.

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Old 05-15-2018, 12:23 PM
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Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ?? Snubbies....Do You Gain Anything by Jumping Up to 357mag over 38 Special and +P ??  
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Thoughtful post from HamHands. I bet he is younger than me, as I can't see the J frame fixed sights (or most typical revolver fixed sights) well enough to shoot to a reasonable standard of time and performance.
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