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Old 05-11-2018, 11:59 AM
sniper sniper is offline
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Smile Some opinions, please!

I have owned guns most of my life, and tend to keep them a loooong time, so, I am by no means an expert!

I just sold a S&W 586 no dash with the M thing done. I had used it since I got it...mid-80's, with my standard load, a smidge higher than
+P handloads/Unique/cast lead/some jacketed bullets when I could afford them. Very few factory Full Magnums. When I sold it, the gunsmith showed me the forcing cone was eroded significantly! That was amazing to me. I thought since I had bought it in the Bangor-Punta days, it may have been a case of lower QC.(?) No way I could have shot it that much, I tell myself! (O really?)

Nowadays, I hear of various "problems"...MIM parts breaking, sights tilted, and "THE LOCK" tying the gun up solidly, and other concerning issues, not only with Smith, but all major manufacturers. There must be some basis to the complaints, but are the majority of "problems" just internet "discussion" and complaint sessions, not amounting to much?

I guess that is a sign of the times we live in. Am I just being Uber picky in my old age? IMO,the new Model 66 looks FAT, compared to the ones I remember from the days of yore, and the finish! I wish it looked more like the 686 or 60s I have seen!
I look with enthusiasm to the day I can see and fondle ...uhmmm...HANDLE...I mean handle... a new Model 19! I will probably buy one, once the first year manufacturing bugs get worked out, and just live with whatever "problems" there may be, and let Mother Smith fix it, should it break!
Thanx!
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:10 PM
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Is there a question in there? If you used your 586 as indicated I find it hard to believe that you had much, if any, forcing cone erosion. Are you sure you weren't looking at carbon and lead deposit build-up in the FC area? It could also depend on the powder and bullet weight you used - fast burning powders and light bullets can increase the rate of erosion.

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Old 05-11-2018, 12:16 PM
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Ball powders like 231 will cause a lot of forcing cone erosion with anything above target loads. The +P and magnums will do it. The ball powder grains are like a sandblaster and will make grooves in the forcing cone similar to water making gullies in the dirt.
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Old 05-11-2018, 12:40 PM
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Pictures would help to allow us to make more meaningful comments. Still, you had the gun for 30+ years. Shot it with high pressure +P+ rounds, and had some top strap erosion. Doesn't sound too unusual to me. Lose of metal will progress to a point, then practically stop after it reaches a certain point. It's normal.

Truth is, you don't really know for certain how hot your handloads were. Many common recipes that were commonly shared between handloaders in the '70's and '80's were later found in the '90's, when better pressure testing equipment became available, to be much higher. Sometimes even to unsafe levels.

Regarding the look of the new Smiths, I agree with you entirely. Perhaps it takes a measured eye, but they sure don't look as perfectly proportioned as the guns from the 90's and before. In my view, the extra metal they added to the frame to cover the lock and the lock-flag mechanism destroyed a large part of their inherent gracefulness.

It's a pity S&W didn't just adopt a Taurus style simple hammer lock.
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Old 05-11-2018, 01:27 PM
RGVshooter RGVshooter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post

Nowadays, I hear of various "problems"...MIM parts breaking, sights tilted, and "THE LOCK" tying the gun up solidly, and other concerning issues, not only with Smith, but all major manufacturers. There must be some basis to the complaints, but are the majority of "problems" just internet "discussion" and complaint sessions, not amounting to much?
Unless I see it for myself I'll chalk it up to just internet rumors, trolls, and unsubstantiated hearsay. Let's start with MIM parts. "metal injection molding" which is a process of powdered metal is mixed with a binder material and is used as a feedstock to be molded or injected under pressure to create complex parts in mass production. After molding the part goes under a process to remove the binder & densify the powders.

The only time I've personally seen a MIM part break in all my years was on a old Snapper lawn mower when I changed the blade. A $4 part.

I'll add. Solid steel milled parts are more expensive to produce and in the case of older guns with hand fitted parts being "better"? Better than what? A part that has to be "hand fitted" basically means that all the parts are not within the same tolerances and have to be filed/stoned in order for the product to function as designed. Expensive in the end and a indicator of inconsistent manufacturing. MIM parts are mass produced and have much tighter tolerances, cheaper to produce and do not need any final "fitting" by hand for the product to function.

Hand fitting does not mean it's made better.

The Internal lock? S&W was not the first manufacturer that has them. They've been around for over 35 years I think with either Rossi or Taurus. There is no credible evidence that a internal lock failed in a civilian self defense shooting. None whatsoever.

Lucky Gunner is the only online source that unbiasedly discusses the story of the S&W internal lock. To me personally it is a non issue. I own 3 revolvers with it and it's like they're not even there. Personally I think internal lock on a revolver is silly as modern revolvers with frame mounted firing pins & transfer bars prevent any accidental discharges. They're ugly but in the end, is not a deal breaker to me. I'll buy a S&W that has one in a heartbeat.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/s...internal-lock/
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Old 05-11-2018, 02:18 PM
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Default ????

Was the "gunsmith" that showed you the "corrosion" also the same person wanting to buy it?
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Old 05-11-2018, 03:00 PM
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Default YES/NO, & IT DEPENDS, AFAIC.

[

Solid steel milled parts are more expensive to produce and in the case of older guns with hand fitted parts being "better"? Better than what? A part that has to be "hand fitted" basically means that all the parts are not within the same tolerances and have to be filed/stoned in order for the product to function as designed. Expensive in the end and a indicator of inconsistent manufacturing. MIM parts are mass produced and have much tighter tolerances, cheaper to produce and do not need any final "fitting" by hand for the product to function.

Hand fitting does not mean it's made better.

It don't mean it's made worse either.
Sure CNC machining will cut to closer tolerances, BUT in MY non expert opinion a good steel, hand fitted by someone that really knows what they are doing & has pride in their work is hard to beat for strength & smoothness. Simply functioning, is a far cry from working very well- as well as possible. Having less tradesman that are able to perform that kind of work and less consumers willing to pony up the $ to pay for that kind of material/craftsmanship, may have much to do with why it's faded away, & the only "real" affordable way to get it, may be to hope to find a good deal on an older gun, IMO. Can a new gun shoot better than the vast majority of the owners, IMO YES! There's also more to life than group size as well.

Last edited by nachogrande; 05-11-2018 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 05-12-2018, 11:47 AM
sniper sniper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
Was the "gunsmith" that showed you the "corrosion" also the same person wanting to buy it?
Nacho;
Funny you should mention that...as a point of fact, it was. It looks like he saw me coming! But...it is what it is. Done and done...Live and Learn!

Lucky Gunner's article regarding lock failure was balanced, and apparently well-researched, but BOY! The flood of guys responding with personal, sometimes multiple failure stories was amazing! Definitely something to consider, imo.

Despite it all, I LOVE Smith & Wesson revolvers, and IF the filler plugs I have seen mentioned on the forum will remove both the lock and the lock-up problem, then, I am game!

BUT maybe, just maybe...one day, I will find the Unicorn of a 686-3,4,or 5 in great shape, for a reasonable price (less than new) and live happily ever after!

You think?
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:23 PM
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So where are all the guys with their million dollar civil settlements litigated due to failed locks? Seems like there should be thousands of them rolling in the dough. Funny, I don't know of a single one.

The MIM parts are unarguably better in every respect. The great thing about the old hand fitter parts was it put another set (or sets) of expert eyeballs on the gun before it went in the box.

Now days it seems like the whole thing is made by robots with very little human involvement whatsoever. Hence all the numerous well documented and glaring QA failings.
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Old 05-12-2018, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper View Post
...but BOY! The flood of guys responding with personal, sometimes multiple failure stories was amazing! Definitely something to consider, imo.
You, of course, are entitled to your opinion, but the Kernel makes a very valid point. Internet lore is just that - lore, and even if you read about a thousand instances of this happening, consider that it's thousands out of millions of guns. Do I believe that it happens? Yes, but far less than the anecdotal evidence suggests and I don't think I've ever heard of a failure at a critical juncture. The Internet is king of making mountains out of mole hills. Don't let the lock stop you from buying the Smith that you want.

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Old 05-12-2018, 05:09 PM
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Sorry Sniper,

But this forum does not traffic
in opinions. Only facts are
stated which are proven and
verifiable.

You want opinions, go to the
Colt Forum.

And those are my opinions.
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Old 05-12-2018, 06:03 PM
HOUSTON RICK HOUSTON RICK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kernel Crittenden View Post
So where are all the guys with their million dollar civil settlements litigated due to failed locks? Seems like there should be thousands of them rolling in the dough. Funny, I don't know of a single one. .

I am also wondering where the lock problems are. I have a couple guns with locks and have had no issues. I know there is a strong preference against the lock, but it is not a deal breaker for me.
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:43 PM
Capttjk1 Capttjk1 is offline
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Originally Posted by HOUSTON RICK View Post
I am also wondering where the lock problems are. I have a couple guns with locks and have had no issues. I know there is a strong preference against the lock, but it is not a deal breaker for me.
I agree. I have 20+ S&W revolvers with the lock. I have never had a problem with any of them with tens upon tens of thousands of rounds through them. From light .38 spl to full house .44 mags, never a problem. Of course, I wish present day S&W revolvers didnít have a lock but itís never been a problem for me and I really donít even notice it anymore.
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Old 05-13-2018, 06:15 PM
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There was a post years ago, I think somewhere on this forum, where a S&W engineer described the MIM process and S&W's development of parts using the process. IIRC, they refined the design and manufacturing process until Jerry Miculek couldn't tell the difference between a gun that used the old forged/fitted parts and one that had MIM parts. To me, that would be equivalent to "working as well as possible."

I've also read (elsewhere) that MIM parts have been used for years in the automotive industry, including for things like connecting rods and rocker arms inside motors. I don't read much about modern car engines dying because MIM parts are failing. And Ruger supposedly has been making MIM revolver frames for decades - don't hear about them breaking very often, either.

Now, do I like the idea of parts hand fitted by an expert? Sure, but not at what it would cost in today's industrial climate, especially given available alternatives that produce more consistent parts cheaper.
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Old 05-13-2018, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrangler5 View Post
I've also read (elsewhere) that MIM parts have been used for years in the automotive industry, including for things like connecting rods and rocker arms inside motors. I don't read much about modern car engines dying because MIM parts are failing. And Ruger supposedly has been making MIM revolver frames for decades - don't hear about them breaking very often, either.
I'm not a metallurgist but just FYI, while MIM may be used in the automotive industry (I don't know in what capacity) it isn't used for connecting rods. You are confusing MIM with sintered metal - another form of powdered metal technology.

Again, Ruger may also use MIM, but certainly not for revolver or other firearm frames. In this instance you are confusing MIM with investment or "lost wax" casting, which uses conventional molten metal.

MIM is a great technology which results in a win / win situation for manufacturers and consumers. It allows for the production of precision small parts that require minimal machining, at lower costs than than forging and machining the same part. MIM parts are more consistent in both dimension and quality -that is why you read about many parts being able to be "dropped-in" that once required fitting.

Adios,

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Old 05-14-2018, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capttjk1 View Post
I agree. I have 20+ S&W revolvers with the lock. I have never had a problem with any of them with tens upon tens of thousands of rounds through them. From light .38 spl to full house .44 mags, never a problem. Of course, I wish present day S&W revolvers didnít have a lock but itís never been a problem for me and I really donít even notice it anymore.
Slight thread drift here....

Just curious with your experience having so many revolvers and calipers.... what is your favorite round to shoot, and out of which gun, and why?
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Old 05-14-2018, 08:59 AM
nachogrande nachogrande is online now
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Angry THE LOCK

Make sure it is unlocked, then throw the key away, NO PROBLEM.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:38 AM
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Bangor Punta concerns ? Lear Siegler era more like it for concerns.
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