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  #51  
Old 06-30-2018, 10:59 PM
Paul105 Paul105 is offline
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I promised myself not to reply to this thread – can’t help myself. I’ve had at least four lock failures. Not a lock gun hater, on the contrary, I have multiple S&Ws and only one is a pre lock gun. The failures were directly related to the lock – the first two were on a S&W 329, and the latter two were on a 6” half lug 629 (a range only gun) – yes, they were lock related and occurred twice and when the lock was removed never happened again. The 329s had 9,000 +- of hi intensity rounds and the 629 5,000 +. These are unnecessary parts that can fail. If you use these guns for personal protection then make your choice wisely. My all day, every day carry gun for the better part of a decade was a 329 (without the lock). The “I’ve never been hit by lightning, so it can’t happen crowd” is ubiquitous on the internet, so make your choice wisely. One last thing – replacing the lock with the plug, or removing just the flag still leaves unnecessary parts that can fail. Here’s a picture of the lock cam that failed on a 329.

Yeah, it may never happen, but it can and Murphy is always with us.

FWIW,

Paul
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  #52  
Old 07-01-2018, 12:57 AM
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It feels like we have this thread conversation once a year. Yes it can lock up. Even if it's a .099% chance of it happening, only you can determine if that's enough to do something about it. There are two members on this forum who sell a classy looking plug if you decide to remove the lock. Yes it will void warranty, but if anything happens to your revolver you just put it back in and send it off and no one will ever know. Also let's stop the fear mongering. Removing the lock isn't going to land you in jail. Seriously has anyone ever heard of a case where this happen? That lock has been around now for almost 20 years and I've yet to hear it. It's an accessory that was added to the gun and can be removed without changing how it functions. No different than replacing your front sight, changing out your grips, or having a gunsmith port a barrel.
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Old 07-01-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul105 View Post
I promised myself not to reply to this thread – can’t help myself. I’ve had at least four lock failures. Not a lock gun hater, on the contrary, I have multiple S&Ws and only one is a pre lock gun. The failures were directly related to the lock – the first two were on a S&W 329, and the latter two were on a 6” half lug 629 (a range only gun) – yes, they were lock related and occurred twice and when the lock was removed never happened again. The 329s had 9,000 +- of hi intensity rounds and the 629 5,000 +. These are unnecessary parts that can fail. If you use these guns for personal protection then make your choice wisely. My all day, every day carry gun for the better part of a decade was a 329 (without the lock). The “I’ve never been hit by lightning, so it can’t happen crowd” is ubiquitous on the internet, so make your choice wisely. One last thing – replacing the lock with the plug, or removing just the flag still leaves unnecessary parts that can fail. Here’s a picture of the lock cam that failed on a 329. [IMG]https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/329LockParts.jpg[/IMG]

Yeah, it may never happen, but it can and Murphy is always with us.

FWIW,

Paul
I admire your affinity for .44mag and your round count/dedication to the caliber. I'm a .44nut now too. But there is one thing I have to ask... When removing the lock and flag... and replacing it with the lock delete/plug; exactly what part(s) are still present mechanically that are still present and prone to failure related to, "the lock"???
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  #54  
Old 07-01-2018, 06:53 PM
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HamHands

If you don’t want to watch the entire disassembly procedure, skip to about 5:40 – 6:00 on the video. There are four lock components, “the flag”, flag cam, cam retainer (little fork) and cam retainer spring. With this version of the plug you are still using two of the original lock parts (retainer & spring) to secure the plug.


I believe there was another version that substituted a clip for the lock retainer/spring to secure the plug.

Just seems to me you are substituting one potential problem for another.

For me, these are all unnecessary parts that could be subject to “Murphy’s” influence. Probability is low for sure, but if it’s mechanical, it’s subject failure. Again, it’s an individual choice.

FWIW,

Paul
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:11 PM
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My 586-7 with the 'Plug'... works for me.



Here are the removed parts.



A done deal. And on a second 686 gun...


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  #56  
Old 07-01-2018, 07:45 PM
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I delocked my 642 which was easy as pie when I dod the trigger job on it. Not only was it comforting to have the lock gone, but the trigger was SWEET when I finished.
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  #57  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:58 PM
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Lock still works..... So does the MIM trigger and hammer, LOL
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  #58  
Old 07-01-2018, 09:59 PM
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Lock still works..... So does the MIM trigger and hammer, LOL
Model 66 or 69?
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  #59  
Old 07-01-2018, 10:16 PM
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Some time ago, I bought an M-642 that an LGS had taken in trade. It looks like it was carried in a metal toolbox with a bunch of loose tools and in the back end of a truck bed that only travelled on really rough roads. Took me an while but I finally made a deal for it for less than $200. I took it home and removed all the IL parts, cleaned and lubed it, and found it to have a really decent action and function. Took it to the range and was well pleased with its accuracy. What’s not to like? Yeah, it has a small hole in the frame but so what? I bought a kit to fill the hole, but while waiting on it to arrive, it ocurred to me that those replacement parts could come loose as easily as the OEM lock parts, so I didn’t install them.

This lightweight revolver that says its +P rated right on the barrel has ridden in a good pocket holster as well as in both IWB and OWB holsters for quite a few miles now. Anytime I choose to carry a lightweight J frame, that’s the one I carry, and I have no worries about it. Can’t hurt it, but I can depend on it! If I were to buy another revolver with a lock that I intended to carry and depend on, I’d remove the IL completely and not worry about the hole in the frame. If I ever decided to sell the 642, I’d reinstall the IL and not look back. This is my personal decision about the IL, FWIW to anyone reading this. You decide for yourselves!
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul105 View Post
HamHands

If you don’t want to watch the entire disassembly procedure, skip to about 5:40 – 6:00 on the video. There are four lock components, “the flag”, flag cam, cam retainer (little fork) and cam retainer spring. With this version of the plug you are still using two of the original lock parts (retainer & spring) to secure the plug.

S&W lock delete - YouTube

I believe there was another version that substituted a clip for the lock retainer/spring to secure the plug.

Just seems to me you are substituting one potential problem for another.

For me, these are all unnecessary parts that could be subject to “Murphy’s” influence. Probability is low for sure, but if it’s mechanical, it’s subject failure. Again, it’s an individual choice.

FWIW,

Paul
Paul the video for one you show is the Lock Delete parts. They are a machined interlocking slug and retainer set. The only part that is reused is the spring.

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Old 07-02-2018, 07:19 AM
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ONE RAMIFICATION IS THAT IT WILL VOID YOUR FACTORY WARRANTY ! ! !
No, they just just put it back in place when you send it in. My 329 pd locked up due to the lock one time so I just removed it. Later I sent the gun in for a new blast shield and they replaced the lock. I just take out again
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:37 AM
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Can't you just add a G to your lock and fix your CCW by making it a ... wait for it ...
GLOCK!?!

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  #63  
Old 07-02-2018, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul105 View Post
HamHands

If you don’t want to watch the entire disassembly procedure, skip to about 5:40 – 6:00 on the video. There are four lock components, “the flag”, flag cam, cam retainer (little fork) and cam retainer spring. With this version of the plug you are still using two of the original lock parts (retainer & spring) to secure the plug.

S&W lock delete - YouTube

I believe there was another version that substituted a clip for the lock retainer/spring to secure the plug

Just seems to me you are substituting one potential problem for another.

For me, these are all unnecessary parts that could be subject to “Murphy’s” influence. Probability is low for sure, but if it’s mechanical, it’s subject failure. Again, it’s an individual choice.

FWIW,

Paul
I know the exact parts you speak of Paul. I understand the removal and install process of the lock delete in detail. I believe that is J.D.'s (the owner of Original Precision's), video and I used it extensively the first lock delete/plug I installed. I've since done about a half dozen more for myself and family, (all of us "Woodsmen/Woodswomen.) The fork and the spring that are left over after the plug delete is properly installed aren't going to cause any problems under recoil or any other situation though. Its that damned flag and the rotation of the "lock" that causes unwanted lock-up, (both of which are removed during the plug delete install.)

I do fully agree with you on the spring and fork (as left-over-parts), being just as unnecessary as the original lock design itself is though. But to reiterate; with the plug/delete installed properly, (there is only one way it will work/install)... there is nothing for the fork and spring to do but "stay seated" in their proper channel in the frame and into the plug channel itself.

I used to run from the locks until I discovered Original Precision. Now the only time I won't purchase a new(er) Smith is because I want something nostalgic or an option that Smith doesn't offer on a newer model with the lock. To each his own and I fully support someone who won't buy or carry a Smith with a lock. I had a 625 lock up from recoil shooting 255grain Hard Cast Buffalo Bore's which were my go to "Woods-Carry" rounds before moving on to .44Magnum as our primary woods defense; of one is a 629 with the lock deleted and now a Lew Horton M29 before the lock was "dreamed-up".
Pic below of the M625 that locked up under recoil after just 23 rounds of the aforementioned BB Hard Casts... pic after the plug delete of course.


Pics of both mine and the wifey's 629 & M29 we now "Woods Carry" but with Underwood Hard Cast 255gr, .44Special for the wife, 255gr .44Mag Hard Cast for me.


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Old 07-02-2018, 12:02 PM
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Paul the video for one you show is the Lock Delete parts. They are a machined interlocking slug and retainer set. The only part that is reused is the spring.

Correct, with JD's plug delete the only thing reused is the OEM lock cam fork spring. I can vouch for the quality of J.D.'s parts as I've installed a half dozen now for myself, brother(s), and wife. They install only one way, the correct way and totally eliminate any kind of unintentional "Lock-Up" once installed. The plus is you can either perfectly match the slug up to the frame finish or as I did on my wifes 629, make the plug delete to match the trigger, hammer, front sight finish to accent against the stainless steel. Your parts are legit JD!
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:14 PM
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So, to recap: S&W finds it vitally necessary to install a "Locking, storage, safety device" on double action revolvers, most with a fully functional exposed hammer, while Glock sells a "Safe action" single action only auto, without anything remotely capable of "locking" anything. Hmm. Joe
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Old 07-02-2018, 03:41 PM
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So, to recap: S&W finds it vitally necessary to install a "Locking, storage, safety device" on double action revolvers, most with a fully functional exposed hammer, while Glock sells a "Safe action" single action only auto, without anything remotely capable of "locking" anything. Hmm. Joe
For entertainment, search the web and take note of how many "accidental" discharges - by well trained people no less - have happened with Glock as opposed to late model revolvers. It will give your post a whole different meaning.
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Old 07-02-2018, 04:34 PM
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The absence of internal locks doesn't seem to be a problem for Ruger, Taurus, or Colt, why is that?
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Old 07-02-2018, 04:47 PM
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The absence of internal locks doesn't seem to be a problem for Ruger, Taurus, or Colt, why is that?
Because they are owned by Safe-T-Hammer, a lock company
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Old 07-02-2018, 04:50 PM
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For entertainment, search the web and take note of how many "accidental" discharges - by well trained people no less - have happened with Glock as opposed to late model revolvers. It will give your post a whole different meaning.
I felt bad for the officer giving a demonstration while reholstering his Glock during a classroom visit. But I instantly think of this exact video as the quintessential "Glock Leg" definition.

I carried a G27 for 5 years, every day. Then an M&P40c (sans the safety) for the next 5 years before I got turned onto the wonderful CZ "P-01" and "SP-01" series... both decocker models. I carry the P-01 for when I'm at my downtown Atlanta office in an area the FBI stats say you have a 1 in 11 chance of being a victim of violent crime. Real Estate... who woulda thought? Around home in the suburbs and in the woods it's 3" 629 (now the wife's) or more recently a 3" M29. Just don't wear clothing or jackets with draw strings attached to zippers. Finger placement during the draw and holstering is paramount; of which we all know; or at least should know... But you are right... Cops and Civi's have been carrying without safeties for centuries!
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:03 PM
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Because they are owned by Safe-T-Hammer, a lock company
I sure hope a tampon company doesn't buy Colt Mfg.
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:27 PM
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I sure hope a tampon company doesn't buy Colt Mfg.
LOL! True..
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:35 PM
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my 629-1 has never "locked up", and I shoot "real" magnums from it.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:15 PM
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I agree that the owner of a gun should remove the lock if they feel it's unsafe and it makes them feel more confident in the gun they are using.

I only have one lock gun, and I won't be removing the lock, mostly because I don't see the failure of a lock as more or less catastrophic than any other parts failure that kept my gun from firing. I've had strain screws come loose or be adjusted improperly by previous owners, and they've kept the gun from firing (light strikes.) True, with a light strike you can go to the next cylinder on a revolver, but it may or may not fire.

I had a N frame lock up because the ejector rod came loose. Had to take the gun all apart because it had gotten wedged so tight. Tightened everything up and put on locktite. No problems since. Haven't sworn off guns with strain screws or ejector rods yet.
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:33 AM
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I see it far too often in many fields - people afraid to express reality to the delusional for fear of being considered "mean". We need a lot more R. Lee Ermey and a lot less Dale Carnegie.
Opinions are like other parts of the body. Everybody has one.

But they are not all that useful.

Dale Carnegie is also a LOT more generally useful then R. Lee Ermey in most of life's pursuits.

I don't understand why the Locks generate such emotion. Most revolvers are NOT suitable for LEO or serious self-protection use. They are NO longer Police guns but are consumer grade products. The engineering that goes into them does NOT warrant trusting them as much as an Semi-Auto designed for LEO use.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:51 AM
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I've heard rumors that if you alter your carry gun in any fashion (removing the lock) and use it for defense, they will try to chew you up in court. Any truth to this rumor?
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:38 PM
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I've heard rumors that if you alter your carry gun in any fashion (removing the lock) and use it for defense, they will try to chew you up in court. Any truth to this rumor?
in some jurisdictions the prosecutors are very anti-constitutional 2nd Amendment, and they will try anything to feather their own nest for political purposes. in other jurisdictions something like that wouldn't get a second look because it has no bearing on whether lethal force was justified.

know the political winds of your area.
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:23 PM
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in some jurisdictions the prosecutors are very anti-constitutional 2nd Amendment, and they will try anything to feather their own nest for political purposes. in other jurisdictions something like that wouldn't get a second look because it has no bearing on whether lethal force was justified.

know the political winds of your area.
I would like to see a case of where removing the storage device canceled the right to use your weapon in self defense. Internet bs
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:08 PM
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I would like to see a case of where removing the storage device canceled the right to use your weapon in self defense. Internet bs
he mentioned altering the gun in any fashion. I guess you missed that part.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:43 PM
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Think I'm going to buy one.

S&W Lock Delete - ORIGINAL PRECISION

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Old 07-03-2018, 11:37 PM
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Opinions are like other parts of the body. Everybody has one.

But they are not all that useful.

Dale Carnegie is also a LOT more generally useful then R. Lee Ermey in most of life's pursuits.

I don't understand why the Locks generate such emotion. Most revolvers are NOT suitable for LEO or serious self-protection use. They are NO longer Police guns but are consumer grade products. The engineering that goes into them does NOT warrant trusting them as much as an Semi-Auto designed for LEO use.
I think revolvers are out-dated for LEO use only because of capacity.

So, you're saying a brand new, well-maintained modern SW (a no-lock model) or Ruger revolver that's been proven reliable after 4-5 hundred rounds fired is not as trustworthy as modern pistols of the same circumstances?

Subtly
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Old 07-04-2018, 05:19 AM
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There are so many new Smith & Wesson revolvers that I would buy if it were not for the lock. I simply do not trust them. If S&W announced tomorrow that they would no longer install the lock in new production models, I would buy one every payday. Until then, I will look for older models without the lock, or buy Ruger revolvers. I would even be happy if they simply made the lock an option, much like the thumb safety on the M&P autos.
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Practical View Post
Opinions are like other parts of the body. Everybody has one.

But they are not all that useful.

Dale Carnegie is also a LOT more generally useful then R. Lee Ermey in most of life's pursuits.

I don't understand why the Locks generate such emotion. Most revolvers are NOT suitable for LEO or serious self-protection use. They are NO longer Police guns but are consumer grade products. The engineering that goes into them does NOT warrant trusting them as much as an Semi-Auto designed for LEO use.
Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see where the OP said anything about LEO use, and stating that revolvers have no use for "serious self protection" is absurd and nothing more then an uneducated opinion, unfounded in fact.

As to opinions, I suggest you follow your own advice "Opinions are like other parts of the body. Everybody has one.
But they are not all that useful."

I'll leave it at that.............
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:29 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
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It was definitely the lock. Got the key, turned it and it worked fine.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:31 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
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Thanks for your kind offer to talk me through "dehorning" the lock. I found a good youtube video and "got 'er done."
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:37 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
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GLOCK????
That's sacrilege on Smith and Wesson forum
Life's too short to carry an ugly gun, but they are functional.
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Old 07-05-2018, 10:44 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
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Thanks for the kind words Doc. Us gun guys do seem to love a good debate, but no offense taken from anyone. I'll be 70 in a couple weeks--too old to fight
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:14 PM
Ralph G. Briscoe Ralph G. Briscoe is offline
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Thanks for your knowledgeable comments. As I said, I was always skeptical about the reports of Smith revolvers locking up. I have 6 that have the locks and have shot most of them a lot. The 432 that locked up was fired the least, and always with light loads. Until I removed the lock it had never been open up. Just reporting the facts....do with them what you may. I can't go along with those who say "I'll never buy a Smith with the lock." It's a simple matter to remove the lock if you desire, and to replace it if necessary. I also have quite a few pre-lock Smiths which I prefer for aesthetic reasons, but the modern lightweight plus p guns fit my bill for CC guns.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:11 PM
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Due to this thread and many other related threads on various forums, I finally bought to plugs and installed them today. One in my 627 Pro and the other in my 586 L-Comp.

I took no photos but everyone can find pics as to how they look.
I bought them from here, although there are likely other sources or retailers of this same company's products:
S&W Lock Delete - ORIGINAL PRECISION

My installation issues.

The 627 Pro went well installing the plug. Unfortunately, my prior rear sight blade mod/replacement I did on this gun had the parts fall out, as the captured/staked on nut fell off somewhere at some time and the sight parts fell out right on my workbench. I must not have adequately staked the nut onto the adjustment screw. I already ordered replacement parts.

With the 586 L-Comp. It was just a bit more frustrating as I had trouble getting out the original "trident" lock retainer and launched the spring. I found the spring but it probably took me an hour more to do this gun. The replacement "trident" didn't quite fit as well but I stoned both sides of it as it either came a bit rough or I put a burr on it myself as, otherwise, the "trident" wouldn't fit into the frame's slot. This is a fairly small part, by the way.

Next, I could only get the plug in from the inner direction, whereas the plug on the 627 Pro would go in from either the outside or the inside. Putting the plug in from the inside was fine, however, as it's really just the reverse of the disassembly process.

For anyone who loses that little "trident" spring, a Glock firing pin safety spring could work, but it is just a bit larger than the lost S&W trident spring. As previously mentioned, I subsequently found the S&W spring on the floor and the Glock spring wasn't needed.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmer View Post
So, to recap: S&W finds it vitally necessary to install a "Locking, storage, safety device" on double action revolvers, most with a fully functional exposed hammer, while Glock sells a "Safe action" single action only auto, without anything remotely capable of "locking" anything. Hmm. Joe
Apples and oranges. A storage lock isn't going to stop Glock leg or any other NG while holstering.
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Old 07-08-2018, 11:38 PM
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I couldn't get on board with the plug system, and having a decade of micro-tig welding experience on exotic alloys molds and tooling..my MP340 found its way onto my welding table. Scandium welds beautiful...one more alloy under my helmet, and the holes are gone for good.

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Old 07-09-2018, 01:05 AM
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I couldn't get board with the plug system, and having a decade of micro-tig welding experience on exotic alloys molds and tooling..my MP340 found its way onto my welding table. Scandium welds beautiful...one more alloy under my helmet, and the holes are gone for good.
I like it, but permanently altering the frame this way likely would void the S&W warranty.
I have thought about Silver brazing a piece of stainless rod in the hole, trimming and polishing to match the frame. Also voiding the warranty.

Best,
Rick

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Old 07-09-2018, 04:30 AM
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A lot of solutions for a problem that really doesn't exist.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:07 AM
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A lot of solutions for a problem that really doesn't exist.
The problem does exist and has happened. Pull your head out of the sand and read the thread of those it has happened to.

Don't make statements like that based only on your experience.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:52 AM
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The problem does exist and has happened. Pull your head out of the sand and read the thread of those it has happened to.

Don't make statements like that based only on your experience.
I worry about more likely things like a dud primer (only 6 sigma or 99.9997% reliable).

I've had 3 lock guns, turned the lock on all of them and decided that the the recoil pulse it would take to actuate the lock would be enough to stick the hammer spur through the front of my skull. Absolutely a non problem. IMO.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:02 AM
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I worry about more likely things like a dud primer (only 6 sigma or 99.9997% reliable).

I've had 3 lock guns, turned the lock on all of them and decided that the the recoil pulse it would take to actuate the lock would be enough to stick the hammer spur through the front of my skull. Absolutely a non problem. IMO.
Then explain how 2 locked revolvers of mine locked up when firing? I had to unlock them twice on one and 3 on another firing standard pressure ammo. One a 438 and the other a Model 25-13 Mtn. Gun. Removed the locks and no more problems since.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:46 PM
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The problem does exist and has happened. Pull your head out of the sand and read the thread of those it has happened to.

Don't make statements like that based only on your experience.
I'll make any statement I care to make.

I won't believe every statement "based only on your experience"
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:48 PM
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I'll make any statement I care to make.

I won't believe every statement "based only on your experience"
Then do your research. I can't help intentional ignorance.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:23 PM
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Then explain how 2 locked revolvers of mine locked up when firing? I had to unlock them twice on one and 3 on another firing standard pressure ammo. One a 438 and the other a Model 25-13 Mtn. Gun. Removed the locks and no more problems since.
The question can't be answered without examining the particular guns referenced, and determining how they'd been assembled at the time the problems occurred. The installation of the torque lock spring in the locking arm ("flag"), and how the bottom end of the spring was secured in the recess within the bolt channel, would have to be examined.

Also, whether either/both of them had ever been disassembled by you (or a previous owner, if you acquired them used) to the point where the hammer and bolt had been removed, or the locking arm allowed to "tip out" and pull on the spring's bottom leg upon removal of the hammer (which could've changed the correct installation, albeit without the owner's knowledge or intention to affect the spring being secure in the frame).

While I did have one of their long time customer service guys (who used to be in production, and now retired for several years) once tell me that for a short while it was wondered if some of the early production revolvers might've had the ILS springs incorrectly installed, he said he hadn't heard of any problems since the early days of it being used. He said he remembered a few problems reported (in-house) with the early ILS-equipped revolvers, but those had been during the development of the X-frame guns (.500/.460), and due to the horrific recoil.

I've talked to someone else from the factory who not only told me of some ILS-equipped revolvers being used by some competitors who racked up high round counts, and without experiencing any "lock failures". He was one of the competitive revolver shooters who used them.

Now, I tend to prefer my S&W revolvers without the extra safety lock, myself, being somewhat of a traditionalist. I only own one of the new model revolvers equipped with the ILS. As an armorer, the ILS-equipped revolvers mean there's 5 additional parts in the gun, but it's not like armorers are told it's suggested to keep extra parts for the ILS on hand. The only thing about the lock system even covered in the class was replacement of the locking arm and torque lock spring, if ever needed, and that was covered in a short few minutes.

In my class I had some armorers from agencies who were longtime revolver guys, and while they didn't care for the aesthetics of the ILS, neither they, nor any other armorers in the class, could think of any instances where a newer model J-frame (still popular as backup and off-duty weapons) had experienced an actual lock-related problem.

One of the guys said he'd fired more than 500 rounds of Magnum ammo through his PD , without any problems, and he was looking forward to ordering a M&P 340 (which was only offered with the ILS at that time). I thought he was probably a bit of a glutton for punishment, myself.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:30 PM
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The question can't be answered without examining the particular guns referenced, and determining how they'd been assembled at the time the problems occurred. The installation of the torque lock spring in the locking arm ("flag"), and how the bottom end of the spring was secured in the recess within the bolt channel, would have to be examined.

Also, whether either/both of them had ever been disassembled by you (or a previous owner, if you acquired them used) to the point where the hammer and bolt had been removed, or the locking arm allowed to "tip out" and pull on the spring's bottom leg upon removal of the hammer (which could've changed the correct installation, albeit without the owner's knowledge or intention to affect the spring being secure in the frame).

While I did have one of their long time customer service guys (who used to be in production, and now retired for several years) once tell me that for a short while it was wondered if some of the early production revolvers might've had the ILS springs incorrectly installed, he said he hadn't heard of any problems since the early days of it being used. He said he remembered a few problems reported (in-house) with the early ILS-equipped revolvers, but those had been during the development of the X-frame guns (.500/.460), and due to the horrific recoil.

I've talked to someone else from the factory who not only told me of some ILS-equipped revolvers being used by some competitors who racked up high round counts, and without experiencing any "lock failures". He was one of the competitive revolver shooters who used them.

Now, I tend to prefer my S&W revolvers without the extra safety lock, myself, being somewhat of a traditionalist. I only own one of the new model revolvers equipped with the ILS. As an armorer, the ILS-equipped revolvers mean there's 5 additional parts in the gun, but it's not like armorers are told it's suggested to keep extra parts for the ILS on hand. The only thing about the lock system even covered in the class was replacement of the locking arm and torque lock spring, if ever needed, and that was covered in a short few minutes.

In my class I had some armorers from agencies who were longtime revolver guys, and while they didn't care for the aesthetics of the ILS, neither they, nor any other armorers in the class, could think of any instances where a newer model J-frame (still popular as backup and off-duty weapons) had experienced an actual lock-related problem.

One of the guys said he'd fired more than 500 rounds of Magnum ammo through his PD , without any problems, and he was looking forward to ordering a M&P 340 (which was only offered with the ILS at that time). I thought he was probably a bit of a glutton for punishment, myself.
Both revolvers purchased new, in the store range witnessed by on site armorer and range staff. Never been in the guns, opened up while there with the armorer and nothing was out of place as shown by video, armorer's manuals, or by myself looking at it. Parts removed and smooth operation afterwards. I wore these afterwards as a PT officer and as armed security as well. Both have had master revolver action jobs done by the PC prior to shipping to me as a custom order.
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Old 07-09-2018, 06:11 PM
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Both revolvers purchased new, in the store range witnessed by on site armorer and range staff. Never been in the guns, opened up while there with the armorer and nothing was out of place as shown by video, armorer's manuals, or by myself looking at it. Parts removed and smooth operation afterwards. I wore these afterwards as a PT officer and as armed security as well. Both have had master revolver action jobs done by the PC prior to shipping to me as a custom order.
Interesting.

So, you're saying that both guns had been worked on by the PC before you got them NIB?

Then, after the problems were experienced, the armorer at the shop removed both the hammers & bolts and found the locking arms secured, meaning the bottom leg was tucked within the recess in the upper surface of the bolt's channel (and would normally be prevented from shifting out of the recess by the presence of the bolt)? The bottom leg of the spring is itty bitty, though, and it might be easy to miss seeing something amiss until the parts were actually being removed by someone knowing what to look for.

When you consider the number of new model revolvers made with the ILS which have not had ILS-connected problems over the years since the design's been incorporated, the chances of 2 disparate models being bought by a single owner, and both having a "lock" problem, becomes mind-boggling.

Looking at it another way, when a single buyer ends up with 2 such "problem" guns, instead of looking at the guns, it's often better to look at any other common factors that have "touched" both guns. Not saying you did it (since you never removed the sideplates), but what else might've caused 2 randomly purchased NIB guns to suddenly exhibit "lock problems"? Were the springs defective in both guns NIB?

For example, did a single person produce both guns in the production cell (but then the guns both received tuning packages at the PC, which means parts were removed from the guns).

Dunno, but if the design were that defective and prone to failure, there would be many thousands and thousands of the guns being returned for the problem.

S&W's corporate legal team would have long since started losing their minds with all of the complaints, especially since many of the J-frames with externally accessible hammers have been, and continue to be, in-service with LE users.

From what we were told, it's the guns that have hammers which can be externally manipulated and thumb-cocked into SA that will always have the ILS system incorporated. You'll notice how it's some of the Centennial style models, which can't be thumb-cocked in SA because of the internal/shrouded DAO hammers, that have been offered sans the ILS.

Dunno what to say about your dismaying experience, but I wish I'd been present and able to examine them, at the bench, when the "locks" apparently unintentionally engaged.

Best regards.
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