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  #101  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:25 PM
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Never implied that it was common, just it happened to me and I had the unnecessary parts removed. If assembled wrong then the PC would have corrected it. If the PC was at fault it would be incompetence. I watched the plates come off, the spring was in the correct place confirmed by the armorer and by me. Backed up by manual. Nothing was broke that could be seen, was a failure of the lock to remain unlocked. Future guns with locks will continue to be de-locked before even firing from here on out.
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Old 07-09-2018, 06:44 PM
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Never implied that it was common, just it happened to me and I had the unnecessary parts removed. If assembled wrong then the PC would have corrected it. If the PC was at fault it would be incompetence. I watched the plates come off, the spring was in the correct place confirmed by the armorer and by me. Backed up by manual. Nothing was broke that could be seen, was a failure of the lock to remain unlocked. Future guns with locks will continue to be de-locked before even firing from here on out.
It's too bad both guns couldn't have been returned to the company for examination. Let them test-fire both guns to experience and confirm improper functioning, and then start trouble-shooting.

If the both ends of the lock springs were properly secured in both the little slots in the locking arm (retained by a molded "nub" at the front of the slot, past which the top end of the spring must be shoved during assembly) and in the frame recess at the other end of the spring, then the common factor might be the torque lock springs. That means checking to make sure they were within the required spec. (Springs that are batch-sourced might be shipped and received up to 10,000 at a time, according to a spring maker I spoke with about out-sourced springs used by gun companies.)

If improperly assembled? Hey, improper assembly is improper assembly, no matter who does it. If it can be identified and attributed, then subsequent issues might be prevented. Same thing can be said for all assembled equipment made in production lines/cells.

Maybe someday the corporate will decide to ease away from the ILS, even if against advice of their legal team. Dunno. I've heard it said that as long as a new model revolver has an externally accessible hammer that some unauthorized person might be able to thumb-cock into SA (meaning it can now be fired with a short & light trigger press, having as little as a 3 1/2lb trigger pull), the legal minds think the ILS is still a good feature. Sigh.
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  #103  
Old 07-09-2018, 06:59 PM
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As litigious a society we have become, the lock will never be a lawsuit. The odds of it failing are remote, and if it DOES happen, the odds of it happening during a self defense shooting where a death or injury were the result are even MORE remote. Like winning the Powerball remote. No lawyer is gonna take the case of a guy at the range who had a lock-up. No damages to award and no payout to the lawyer.

As for why they continue to make no-lock for the hammerless models, I always wondered why they would for those but not the exposed hammer models, 18DAI’s reason makes sense. My kids can’t pull the trigger on my 640. They can on a cocked revolver. And cocking they hammer is pure instinct. I remember when my son was about 3 I was putting my Mkdel 36 away. He asked to see it. I unloaded it and handed it to him, cylinder open. He closed the cylinder, thumbed back the hammer, and pulled the trigger. I never taught him to do that. A single action pull on a revolver is super light.

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  #104  
Old 07-09-2018, 07:03 PM
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As litigious a society we have become, the lock will never be a lawsuit. The odds of it failing are remote, and if it DOES happen, the odds of it happening during a self defense shooting where a death or injury were the result are even MORE remote. Like winning the Powerball remote. No lawyer is gonna take the case of a guy at the range who had a lock-up. No damages to award and no payout to the lawyer.

As for why they continue to make no-lock for the hammerless models, I always wondered why they would for those but not the exposed hammer models, 18DAI’s reason makes sense. My kids can’t pull the trigger on my 640. They can on a cocked revolver. And cocking they hammer is pure instinct. I remember when my son was about 3 I was putting my Mkdel 36 away. He asked to see it. I unloaded it and handed it to him, cylinder open. He closed the cylinder, thumbed back the hammer, and pulled the trigger. I never taught him to do that. A single action pull on a revolver is super light.
From what I've heard said during discussions ... pretty much.
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  #105  
Old 07-09-2018, 07:09 PM
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It's too bad both guns couldn't have been returned to the company for examination. Let them test-fire both guns to experience and confirm improper functioning, and then start trouble-shooting.

If the both ends of the lock springs were properly secured in both the little slots in the locking arm (retained by a molded "nub" at the front of the slot, past which the top end of the spring must be shoved during assembly) and in the frame recess at the other end of the spring, then the common factor might be the torque lock springs. That means checking to make sure they were within the required spec. (Springs that are batch-sourced might be shipped and received up to 10,000 at a time, according to a spring maker I spoke with about out-sourced springs used by gun companies.)

If improperly assembled? Hey, improper assembly is improper assembly, no matter who does it. If it can be identified and attributed, then subsequent issues might be prevented. Same thing can be said for all assembled equipment made in production lines/cells.

Maybe someday the corporate will decide to ease away from the ILS, even if against advice of their legal team. Dunno. I've heard it said that as long as a new model revolver has an externally accessible hammer that some unauthorized person might be able to thumb-cock into SA (meaning it can now be fired with a short & light trigger press, having as little as a 3 1/2lb trigger pull), the legal minds think the ILS is still a good feature. Sigh.
You know, It didn't even cross my mind about returning them. Just didn't think about it. I should have thinking back on it.
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  #106  
Old 07-09-2018, 07:18 PM
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Sorry fastbolt. I meant you heard about the DA external revolvers. Always get you and 18 confused, S&W gurus that you are.
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  #107  
Old 07-09-2018, 07:34 PM
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You know, It didn't even cross my mind about returning them. Just didn't think about it. I should have thinking back on it.
No biggie. It's just that customer complaints and warranty returns can give a company important and useful feedback, as well as an opportunity to figure out why something may be occurring.

I remember being told about a 4006/3 mag spring issue many years ago, after a few LE agencies apparently reported some feeding issues that could be attributed to reduced mag spring strength. The company didn't realize that a batch of springs received from one of their vendors apparently contained a small number of springs which were later identified as being slightly out-of-spec in some manner (heat treat?), and they prematurely weakened. It wasn't thought to involve many of the springs, and they quickly sent out new springs to anyone who reported an issue.

Kind of like when the heat treat problem with some of the early mag catches in the '06 M&P's was identified after customer complaints and warranty returns. It didn't involve all (or even many) of the early units, but they sent our new mag catches to anyone who called and reported a problem with mags not being properly retained.
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  #108  
Old 07-09-2018, 07:44 PM
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Sorry fastbolt. I meant you heard about the DA external revolvers. Always get you and 18 confused, S&W gurus that you are.
Not an issue.

I thought 18DAI had mentioned it, too, and I just missed seeing it in this thread. I seem to recall we've discussed it during previous calls/conversations.
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  #109  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:22 PM
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There is no point in arguing against the lock to those who think they are harmless. Many people don't even carry a gun in the first place. Do you argue with all of them? it makes much more sense to spend one's time learning self defense by watching professional wrestling.
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  #110  
Old 07-09-2018, 08:32 PM
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There is no point in arguing against the lock to those who think they are harmless. Many people don't even carry a gun in the first place. Do you argue with all of them? it makes much more sense to spend one's time learning self defense by watching professional wrestling.
Don't be dissin' the wrassling now! :P
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  #111  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:32 AM
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Most revolvers are NOT suitable for LEO or serious self-protection use. They are NO longer Police guns but are consumer grade products. The engineering that goes into them does NOT warrant trusting them as much as an Semi-Auto designed for LEO use.


Here we go again.

Is this based in the YouTube video with the out-of-spec ammo, or did you find another one?

The “consumer grade” label you apply to revolvers is nothing but your own speculation, and you present it as though it’s common knowledge in the industry.

Tool manufacturers who make professional and consumer grade tools can tell you exactly what separates the two.

Has Smith & Wesson let you in on a secret of how they make “consumer grade” revolvers?

If you’re so convinced of the superiority of autos, please stick to those forums and quit trolling in the revolver forums.

I have plenty of anecdotes and opinions I could share about why autos are junk, but I don’t invade the M&P forum with them.
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  #112  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:36 AM
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Here we go again.

Is this based in the YouTube video with the out-of-spec ammo, or did you find another one?

The “consumer grade” label you apply to revolvers is nothing but your own speculation, and you present it as though it’s common knowledge in the industry.

Tool manufacturers who make professional and consumer grade tools can tell you exactly what separates the two.

Has Smith & Wesson let you in on a secret of how they make “consumer grade” revolvers?

If you’re so convinced of the superiority of autos, please stick to those forums and quit trolling in the revolver forums.

I have plenty of anecdotes and opinions I could share about why autos are junk, but I don’t invade the M&P forum with them.
Well said and spot on.

The statement that Practical made about revolvers being unsuited is only personal bias and isn't based in truth at all.

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  #113  
Old 07-10-2018, 02:59 PM
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Your saying the failure of a safety lock on a firearm wouldn't attract legal attention in our day and age? Turn on the TV. Gun issues are kinda a big deal right now. Some days it's all they talk about.

That lock is there to protect children from evil dangerous guns, and everyone knows guns can just "go off" by themselves. Failure of that lock puts children at risk!

Get that in front of a jury in the right venue and make millions off a wicked Gun Merchant. Where are all the millionaires? In 20 years, not even one?


Plaintiffs attorney or prosecutor:

“So, you deliberately removed the safety mechanism from your revolver before shooting the deceased? Why is that? Is a deadly weapon not deadly enough for your tastes? You were so anxious to kill someone, you removed the safety?”

It doesn’t matter if any of it is accurate or true. There’s probably no one in the courtroom who understood anything, except that you shot someone with a gun you had removed a safety device from. A jury has heard it. Had the hole been left alone, you may not be there in the first place.

“Oh, so it’s not a safety but a storage lock? What purpose does it serve? To prevent unauthorized persons from using the weapon? That sounds like children. So you endangered children so you could use your gun to kill someone quicker? Is that a true statement, Mister Killer?”
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  #114  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:18 PM
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Plaintiffs attorney or prosecutor:

“So, you deliberately removed the safety mechanism from your revolver before shooting the deceased? Why is that? Is a deadly weapon not deadly enough for your tastes? You were so anxious to kill someone, you removed the safety?”

It doesn’t matter if any of it is accurate or true. There’s probably no one in the courtroom who understood anything, except that you shot someone with a gun you had removed a safety device from. A jury has heard it. Had the hole been left alone, you may not be there in the first place.

“Oh, so it’s not a safety but a storage lock? What purpose does it serve? To prevent unauthorized persons from using the weapon? That sounds like children. So you endangered children so you could use your gun to kill someone quicker? Is that a true statement, Mister Killer?”
Mr. KILLER!
-classic

Yea. I bet they'll hang all of us up pretty quickly. And say, "good riddance! We got those lawfully abiding gun owners outta here! Don't need them....."

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  #115  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:45 PM
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If someone wants to get some relevant legal advice, you can pay someone to receive an opinion from a practicing attorney who is familiar with your area, and this particular area of the law.

S&W does offer some DAO revolvers with and without the ILS. Obviously, they (their legal team) doesn't feel it's a potential risk for them to sell those models without it.

It's unpredictable whether anyone involved in any particular case is going to possess sufficient information about some particular firearm.

I remember when we got a call from a DDA for a jury trial one afternoon where the defense claimed a rifle involved in the case wasn't actually an assault weapon, under the law, because the magazine was fixed and couldn't be removed. I wasn't interested, but another instructor agreed to go. Apparently, both the DDA and the investigating officer were unable to remove the magazine for the jurors, and they just wanted an expert witness to confirm it couldn't be removed.

I'm told they were quite surprised when our instructor inspected the rifle on the witness stand, and removed the magazine by using the mag catch lever.
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  #116  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:51 PM
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Some will say "I told you so." But not me. I will stifle myself and I will not...

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Old 07-10-2018, 10:24 PM
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1) The lock serves no legitimate purpose, and should not be there. I do not care about the esthetics of its presence; I am moderately bothered by the politics, but the lack of utility, combined with the small but not zero chance of failure makes it a no-go for me. Note that at least one poster other than I has pointed out being aware of LE agencies prohibiting S&W revolvers with the lock. That's called a clue.

2) The fact that other flaws have resulted in failures is not relevant. That just means that mechanical devices can have flaws, and have to be properly examined before shipping (*cough*), sale (*cough*) and being put in service. I saw plenty of failures of 3rd gen semi-auto pistols on the range (a staggering number, in fact), including brand new, taken out of the box in my presence, 4566s. There were agencies that bought the 2 piece barrel L frames and had an awful time with them (one comes to mind in particular, a state corrections system in the SE, IIRC). There is an agency right now suing a manufacturer for fraud due to changes in the models delivered from what was tested (NJSP and Sig, IIRC, but don't quote me), and of course, there was the EoTech debacle with their fraud settlement after at least a decade of hard use folks pointing out their excremental nature. (IMHO, people should have gone to prison.)

I recall seeing problems with Glocks (good idea fairy and stupid specs, badly built), and as a rule I would not have a Sig that I had not tested a lot, and then only one of their traditional DA/SA models (I have a 239). I ordered a new Sig some years ago and it was so poorly made when it arrived the dealer refused it without even calling me first.

3) The line of questioning posited hypothetically above (about removing a safety device) is grossly improper. I have never seen a real lawyer actually propose or advocate for such questioning. It would violate evidence rules (not relevant); require having had a qualified expert firearms examiner testify incorrectly or falsely, would require a prosecutor to violate ethics rules, require a defense attorney to be a lazy buffoon (any decent qualified defense attorney would get pre-trial rulings prohibiting that), and would result in a reversal on appeal if anyone had a clue. (I'll admit there are a lot of really crummy lawyers out there; I beat them regularly and I scream bloody murder about their actions when they are allegedly fellow prosecutors. As a use of force litigation consultant, I see utterly awful work and my opinion of that would cause collective heart failure in the mods if I expressed it.) I do get questions from other prosecutors, in and out of my office on gun stuff, and help them do it right.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:34 PM
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Hey Doug,

Just curious, how would a firearms examiner be testifying falsely if he said a “safety device” had been removed? Is that because it’s technically a storage device? And that would not be considered relevant in an SD shooting?

If that’s so, I may be getting rid of a couple of locks. But you might ought to send me your card.

I have witnessed firearms expertise first hand in the courtroom while on jury duty.
The “assault weapon” was a 1903 Springfield. I watched frustrated as one person after the other couldn’t close the bolt. Finally the “expert” brought it in front of the jury box. He still couldn’t close it till I told him to push down on the magazine follower.

When the trial was over, the prosecutor asked me what I thought of their expert. She didn’t seem too happy that a juror had to tell him how to operate a rifle.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:39 PM
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I don't have a private practice (pretty much prohibited due to my employment) but I do have a private consulting business in which I am willing to work with attorneys in addressing the needs of their (generally LE) clients. That way, I am not representing clients. Just started it, so it's a fledgling.

That expert should not have been qualified under ER702. I used one from the WSP lab, and he was squared away. In fact, both of us had to work hard to not drift into shooter lingo/slang, and in the appellate brief, I had to footnote the correct nomenclature just be safe.

And yes, your theory as to why it would not be relevant is sound. As a general rule, the firearm itself is not evidence, as long as there is no question that the round came from it (which does not require the firearm to be introduced, just the test results) and that it was an intentional discharge, which only requires that the examination and testing once the firearm is taken into custody is completed. In an OIS, unless there are some really odd questions, the examination, etc. should be completed and the firearm returned within a couple of hours. Member "Nyeti" has written some really good stuff about this in another setting.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:56 PM
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I still find it rather ridiculous, when some people say "ive shot hundreds of rounds through mine and it hasn't locked up yet". Great, have you been struck by lightening yet? No?,...care to wave this metal rod around during a lightening storm? Or, the old ones locked up sometimes too...so stop worrying about a lock. Well, the new ones are at least twice as likely to lock by mistake....so why would you want to up your odds of an accidental locking? Just remove the lock si it'll never be an issue. This outs you ahead.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:03 PM
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Thanks for clarifying, Doug.

Like most of us, most of what I know about law is from TV. Even having sat several days on a criminal jury, I’m sure what I saw was the tip of the legal proceedings iceberg.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:32 PM
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I had my pre lock model 10 lock up a few times but it wasn't the lock. because it had none. What caused it to "lock up" were the primers backing out on some of my handloads.

I wasn't there with the OP. So I have no idea of the cause was because of the lock or not. But he did mention he was shooting his handloads.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:37 AM
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One of my duties at work is being our public records officer, and I spend a lot of time helping people understand what we do or don't have in terms of records, the nomenclature, etc. It makes the office look good, and makes my life easier when I help them make more informed requests. Very few people outside the system are sophisticated/knowledgeable, and terminology varies from state to state.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Macinaw View Post
The IL is a "storage device" not a "safety"! How would a legal issue arise?
A prosecutor bent on making an example will find anything to nitpick. Jurors are not experts and it can be damaging to your case when they hear a "lock" being removed. They may not know any better.

Dont be so sure that what you know as being legal will hold up in court.



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  #125  
Old 07-13-2018, 01:21 PM
Chipperxd Chipperxd is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJFlores View Post
I still find it rather ridiculous, when some people say "ive shot hundreds of rounds through mine and it hasn't locked up yet". Great, have you been struck by lightening yet? No?,...care to wave this metal rod around during a lightening storm? Or, the old ones locked up sometimes too...so stop worrying about a lock. Well, the new ones are at least twice as likely to lock by mistake....so why would you want to up your odds of an accidental locking? Just remove the lock si it'll never be an issue. This outs you ahead.
Get out of here with this nonsense. Waving a pole in a lightning storm is what uou compare to having an IL in a gun?

2 times as likely to fail? How exactly are you calculating this? Please, enlighten us.

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Last edited by Chipperxd; 07-13-2018 at 01:22 PM.
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  #126  
Old 07-13-2018, 02:21 PM
0311INF 0311INF is offline
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I've owned 9 S&W revolvers; not one with a lock.
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  #127  
Old 07-13-2018, 09:31 PM
dogdoc dogdoc is offline
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Taking my lock would be the least of worry’s if I survived a gun fight.
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  #128  
Old 07-15-2018, 08:19 PM
rogerwnuss rogerwnuss is offline
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muddoktor, if your lovely bride is using a j frame for a house gun, I would suggest you get her a nice model 10. if it is a house gun, and not being carried, the size/weight difference doesn't matter. the reduced recoil and extra round might. just a thought.....
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  #129  
Old 07-18-2018, 10:33 AM
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Doug M. Doug M. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerwnuss View Post
muddoktor, if your lovely bride is using a j frame for a house gun, I would suggest you get her a nice model 10. if it is a house gun, and not being carried, the size/weight difference doesn't matter. the reduced recoil and extra round might. just a thought.....
*
And, for good measure, the ergonomic differences make it easier to shoot well. Very few people will ever wring out the last bit of accuracy of any given handgun to the extent that it might matter, especially for defensive use. To that extent, the J frame is as capable of accuracy as the K/L/N in terms of the mechanical construction of the revolver. The sights, trigger pull, and small size of the J frame when holding it against the trigger pull will make it harder to shoot well. I concur in general with the above advice, except that an M15/67 might be better just because aging eyes will have probably do better with the more visible sights.
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