Can we show Revolver's are not as reliable as today's Semi-Autos

Paper Clip · #**101** 07-05-2018, 11:32 AM

Many problems with semis in my experience are caused by user error such as limp-wristing and not inserting a mag fully, not chambering a round with enough force. A revolver's operation makes things like that much less likely. Also, I have had the grip of one of my semi's bust open during firing, never happened with one of my revolvers.

Chubbo · #**102** 07-05-2018, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zogger52

Awhile back I did this analysis:

Revolver vs Semi-Automatic Handgun Reliability Using FMECA Approach

Summary of Results:

Modern handguns are extremely reliable. They are capable of firing many thousands of rounds with no malfunctions. In evaluating the difference in reliability between revolvers and semi-automatic handguns, the primary difference is the dependence of the gun on external factors such as user, ammo, and magazine (if a semi-automatic).
The user’s ability to properly manipulate and hold a semi-automatic is a key to semi-automatic reliability. Revolvers have less dependency upon the user than semi-automatics.

After the gun user, a gun system is most dependent upon the ammunition. Since ammunition is used once and an individual bullet can't be tested without "consuming" it, it is not possible to know with absolute certainty if a specific bullet will perform properly in a gun before using it.

Semi-automatics are more dependent than revolvers upon properly functioning ammunition since the stripping the bullet from the magazine, inserting the round into the chamber, discharge of the round, extraction of the used round, ejection of the used round, movement of the slide rearward due to ammunition discharge has significant dependences on the ammunition for properly functionality.

Semi-autos also require that magazines function properly for the gun to operate properly.

Semi-automatics have higher "first shot" reliability assuming a round has been properly inserted in the chamber.

Revolvers generally have slightly higher accuracy repeatability due to the barrel and sights being mechanically fixed.

Semi-automatics are generally less susceptible to fouling due to gun powder residue than revolvers. Hence semi-automatics generally do not need to be cleaned as often.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

System Description:
The handgun system consists of the following components:
-Gun
-Ammunition
-Magazine for semi-automatics
-User

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assumptions:
1) The gun is being maintained properly. Proper cleaning, lubrication, tightening of screws, and replacement of parts that wear (like recoil springs) are performed at recommended intervals.
2) Proper ammunition is being used.
3) The magazines used in semi-automatics are compatible with the gun.
4) The gun has been "broken in" by firing the recommended number of rounds of the recommended type.
5) The user is familiar with the gun, ammunition, magazine, etc. and handles it per the instruction manual.
6) Revolver is being shot in Double Action mode

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Operation:

Revolver: The user opens the cylinder, inserts the rounds, and closes the cylinder. He then points the gun at the target and squeezes the trigger. The action of squeezing the trigger rotates the cylinder to align a round to the barrel and retracts the hammer. Once the trigger has be moved back far enough to release the hammer, the gun discharges the round.

Semi-Automatic: The user loads the magazine with the ammunition and inserts the magazine into the gun. He then cycles the slide to load a round in the chamber which cocks the hammer/firing pin/striker priming the firing mechanism. He then points the gun at the target, releases any safety mechanisms, and squeezes the trigger. The gun discharges the round and then cycles the slide to load another round into the chamber. The cycling of the slide re-cocks the hammer/firing pin/striker re-priming the firing mechanism.

Note that in a semi-automatic that as long as there was a round in the magazine to load into the chamber, the gun is ready to shoot the next round. After discharge in a revolver, the discharged round remains aligned with the barrel hence squeezing of the trigger (or cocking of the hammer in a single action revolver) is needed to move a live round into firing position.

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Definition of Critically Levels:

Low: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel but the gun is capable of discharging on next trigger squeeze.

Medium: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Manual action is required to set the gun for next use.

High: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Gun system will no longer operate.

Severe: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Damage occurs to the gun system or injury to user.

Note: Normally a probability is given for each failure mode. However there are little statistics available on these failures, hence no probabilities are used in the analysis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A High Level Listing for Credible Failure Modes for Each Component:

The high level credible failures for reach component of the gun system (gun, ammunition, magazine, and user) are detailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun:
The high level credible failures for revolvers and semi-automatics are detailed.

Revolver:
-Failure to properly align the cylinder to the barrel.
Results in bullet not discharging or not properly going into the barrel. Possible damage to user and gun.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if cylinder aligns properly on next trigger pull. Severe if injury to user or damage to gun.

-Failure to strike the primer with sufficient force to cause it to discharge the round.
Results in bullet not going into the barrel (light primer strikes)
Criticality: Low to High. Low if next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if gun will no longer strike primer with enough force.

Semi-Automatic:
-Failure to properly strip a round from the magazine and insert it into the chamber.
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. Severe if jam cannot be cleared.

-Failure to strike the primer with sufficient force to cause it to discharge the round
Results in a non-discharge.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can cycle the slide to eject the unfired round and insert a new round into the chamber. High if unfired round cannot be cleared and new round inserted.

-Failure to eject the discharged round properly
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if jam cannot be cleared.

-Failure to prime the firing mechanism for the next shot.
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if after user manually cycling the slide, the next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if gun will no longer strike primer with enough force (light primer strikes)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammunition
The high level failures of ammunition and its effect on each type of gun are detailed.

-Failure of the primer to discharge even when the primer is struck with sufficient force (dud)

Revolver: Same as a light primer strike.
Criticality: Low to High. Low if next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if all subsequent rounds also do not discharge.

Semi-Automatic: Same as a light primer strike.
Criticality: Medium to High. Low if after the user manually cycles the slide, the next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if all subsequent rounds also do not discharge.

-Failure of the bullet to travel fully out of the barrel due to insufficient force (squib)
Revolver: Results in cartridge discharging with bullet entering the barrel but does not exit.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round or bullet is lightly
lodged and will exit if next round pushed it through the barrel. Severe if bullet is tightly lodged and next bullet causes barrel to explode.

Semi-Automatic: Results in cartridge discharging with bullet entering the barrel but does not exit.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round or bullet is lightly lodged and will exit if next round pushed it through the barrel. Severe if bullet is tightly lodged and next bullet causes barrel to explode.

-Failure of the primer to discharge immediately (hang fire)
Revolver: Bullet still in shell casing
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round. Possible severe if user squeezes trigger for subsequent round and round discharges when cylinder is not aligned to the barrel causing injury to user or damage to gun.

Semi-Automatic: Bullet still in shell casing
Criticality: Medium if after user manually cycling the slide, the hang fire round is ejected, new round is inserted into the chamber properly, and the gun is ready for next use.

-Backing Out of Bullet from Shell Casing
Revolver: Can cause cylinder not to rotate
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if bullet back out des not interfere with cylinder rotation. Possible severe if bullet backs out far enough to stop cylinder from rotating.

Semi-Automatic: Bullet stuck in magazine
Note: All most not possible because of the way the rounds are held in the magazine.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low as long as there is not issue with feeding the backed out round. Severe if the next round cannot be fed from the magazine.

-Failure to present the round properly so it can be stripped off and inserted into the chamber.
Revolver: Not applicable
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if jam cannot be cleared.

-Not allowing the slide to lock back after the last round in the magazine has been fired.
Revolver: Not applicable
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: No Impact
Criticality: Low as user can eject magazine, insert a new one, and manually cycle the slide.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User
The high level failures of due to the user and its effect on each type of gun are detailed.

-Not properly holding the gun so as to inhibit semi-automatic from recycling properly (limp wrist)
Revolver: No Impact
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Gun fires but does not cycle the slide properly causing a jam.
Criticality: Medium after user manually cycles the slide.

-Not properly loading rounds into a magazine
Revolver: No Impact
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if user must eject magazine, insert a new one, and manually cycle the slide.

-”Short Stroking” trigger (not pulling the trigger all the way)
Revolver: Gun does not fire but the cylinder rotates.
Criticality: Low as gun fires on next trigger pull

Semi-Automatic: Gun does not fire nor does the slide cycle.
Criticality: Low as gun fires on next trigger pull

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Factors to Consider:

"First shot" Reliability
A semi-automatic has an advantage over a revolver when firing its first shot (or subsequent shots if the gun has cycled properly after firing a round). The advantage for the semi-automatic is that to discharge a round, only the trigger release mechanism and the round have to function properly for the gun to discharge. This is because a round is in the chamber and the firing mechanism is "primed". In a revolver, the cylinder must cycle to align a fresh round to the barrel in order for the gun to function properly. If a revolver is being fired in “single action” mode, then this factor is negated.

Accuracy Repeatability
Assuming a gun is sighted in properly and the ammunition is consistent with what was used to sight in, there can be different point of impact based on the gun design.
Revolver: In most revolvers the sights (front and back) are structurally lined to the barrel. However the cylinder chambers are moved to alight with the forcing cone and the barrel. The alignment of the cylinder chamber to barrel varies with each chamber in the cylinder. This difference in alignment can affect the accuracy.

Semi-Automatic: Except for designs that have the barrel fixed to the frame, barrels on semi-automatics move after each shot and return to position for the next shot. Since the barrel and sights are not structurally fixed together, there can be variability from shot to shot with the barrel to sight alignment. However since the bullet is inserted snugly into the chamber which is part of the barrel, the bullet to barrel alignment is consistent from shot to shot.

Effect of gun powder residue on functionality (fouling)

When the cartridge is discharged, residue from the gun powder is propelled forward and out of the shell casing. This residue adheres to various parts of the gun mechanisms. The effect of the residue is different on a revolver versus a semi-automatic. Different ammunition produces different amount of gun powder residue. So the amount and effects of residue varies considerably between different ammunition.

Revolver:
In a revolver, the bullet is housed in the cylinder where it is discharged. The bullet and any gun powder residue are propelled forward thru the front of the cylinder, across the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, and into the barrel. Gunpowder residue is built up in the inside of the front of the cylinder starting at the top of the shell casing, on the front of the cylinder, on the forcing cone, around the forcing cone (and frame) and in the barrel. The effect can result in the inability to eject shell casing from the cylinder, inability to insert new bullets into the cylinder, opening of the cylinder, and the cylinder not rotating properly. This effect can be observed when firing a revolver that can use both .357 Magnum and 38 Special ammunition. Since the 38 Special bullet is shorter than the .357 Magnum, if it is shot before the .357 Magnum and causes built up inside the cylinder, then issues can occur when .357 Magnum ammunition is inserted into the cylinder-it may not go all the way into the cylinder. Hence the functionality of a revolver is significantly more affected by gun powder residueand more frequent cleaning is needed.

Semi-Automatic:
Since the bullet is discharged in the chamber which is part of the barrel in a semi-automatic, the majority of the gunpowder residue goes down the barrel and ejects out the gun. Some residue comes back into the slide, magazine, and frame. Some also comes out of the barrel and adheres to the front of the barrel plus the front and sides of the slide. The amount of gunpowder residue that adheres to critical parts of a semi-automatic is significantly less than in a revolver. Hence the functionality of a semi-automatic is significantly less affected and it can function reliability for more rounds before cleaning is needed.

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nachogrande · #**103** 07-05-2018, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zogger52

Awhile back I did this analysis:

Revolver vs Semi-Automatic Handgun Reliability Using FMECA Approach

Summary of Results:

Modern handguns are extremely reliable. They are capable of firing many thousands of rounds with no malfunctions. In evaluating the difference in reliability between revolvers and semi-automatic handguns, the primary difference is the dependence of the gun on external factors such as user, ammo, and magazine (if a semi-automatic).
The user’s ability to properly manipulate and hold a semi-automatic is a key to semi-automatic reliability. Revolvers have less dependency upon the user than semi-automatics.

After the gun user, a gun system is most dependent upon the ammunition. Since ammunition is used once and an individual bullet can't be tested without "consuming" it, it is not possible to know with absolute certainty if a specific bullet will perform properly in a gun before using it.

Semi-automatics are more dependent than revolvers upon properly functioning ammunition since the stripping the bullet from the magazine, inserting the round into the chamber, discharge of the round, extraction of the used round, ejection of the used round, movement of the slide rearward due to ammunition discharge has significant dependences on the ammunition for properly functionality.

Semi-autos also require that magazines function properly for the gun to operate properly.

Semi-automatics have higher "first shot" reliability assuming a round has been properly inserted in the chamber.

Revolvers generally have slightly higher accuracy repeatability due to the barrel and sights being mechanically fixed.

Semi-automatics are generally less susceptible to fouling due to gun powder residue than revolvers. Hence semi-automatics generally do not need to be cleaned as often.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

System Description:
The handgun system consists of the following components:
-Gun
-Ammunition
-Magazine for semi-automatics
-User

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assumptions:
1) The gun is being maintained properly. Proper cleaning, lubrication, tightening of screws, and replacement of parts that wear (like recoil springs) are performed at recommended intervals.
2) Proper ammunition is being used.
3) The magazines used in semi-automatics are compatible with the gun.
4) The gun has been "broken in" by firing the recommended number of rounds of the recommended type.
5) The user is familiar with the gun, ammunition, magazine, etc. and handles it per the instruction manual.
6) Revolver is being shot in Double Action mode

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Operation:

Revolver: The user opens the cylinder, inserts the rounds, and closes the cylinder. He then points the gun at the target and squeezes the trigger. The action of squeezing the trigger rotates the cylinder to align a round to the barrel and retracts the hammer. Once the trigger has be moved back far enough to release the hammer, the gun discharges the round.

Semi-Automatic: The user loads the magazine with the ammunition and inserts the magazine into the gun. He then cycles the slide to load a round in the chamber which cocks the hammer/firing pin/striker priming the firing mechanism. He then points the gun at the target, releases any safety mechanisms, and squeezes the trigger. The gun discharges the round and then cycles the slide to load another round into the chamber. The cycling of the slide re-cocks the hammer/firing pin/striker re-priming the firing mechanism.

Note that in a semi-automatic that as long as there was a round in the magazine to load into the chamber, the gun is ready to shoot the next round. After discharge in a revolver, the discharged round remains aligned with the barrel hence squeezing of the trigger (or cocking of the hammer in a single action revolver) is needed to move a live round into firing position.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of Critically Levels:

Low: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel but the gun is capable of discharging on next trigger squeeze.

Medium: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Manual action is required to set the gun for next use.

High: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Gun system will no longer operate.

Severe: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Damage occurs to the gun system or injury to user.

Note: Normally a probability is given for each failure mode. However there are little statistics available on these failures, hence no probabilities are used in the analysis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A High Level Listing for Credible Failure Modes for Each Component:

The high level credible failures for reach component of the gun system (gun, ammunition, magazine, and user) are detailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun:
The high level credible failures for revolvers and semi-automatics are detailed.

Revolver:
-Failure to properly align the cylinder to the barrel.
Results in bullet not discharging or not properly going into the barrel. Possible damage to user and gun.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if cylinder aligns properly on next trigger pull. Severe if injury to user or damage to gun.

-Failure to strike the primer with sufficient force to cause it to discharge the round.
Results in bullet not going into the barrel (light primer strikes)
Criticality: Low to High. Low if next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if gun will no longer strike primer with enough force.

Semi-Automatic:
-Failure to properly strip a round from the magazine and insert it into the chamber.
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. Severe if jam cannot be cleared.

-Failure to strike the primer with sufficient force to cause it to discharge the round
Results in a non-discharge.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can cycle the slide to eject the unfired round and insert a new round into the chamber. High if unfired round cannot be cleared and new round inserted.

-Failure to eject the discharged round properly
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if jam cannot be cleared.

-Failure to prime the firing mechanism for the next shot.
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if after user manually cycling the slide, the next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if gun will no longer strike primer with enough force (light primer strikes)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammunition
The high level failures of ammunition and its effect on each type of gun are detailed.

-Failure of the primer to discharge even when the primer is struck with sufficient force (dud)

Revolver: Same as a light primer strike.
Criticality: Low to High. Low if next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if all subsequent rounds also do not discharge.

Semi-Automatic: Same as a light primer strike.
Criticality: Medium to High. Low if after the user manually cycles the slide, the next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if all subsequent rounds also do not discharge.

-Failure of the bullet to travel fully out of the barrel due to insufficient force (squib)
Revolver: Results in cartridge discharging with bullet entering the barrel but does not exit.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round or bullet is lightly
lodged and will exit if next round pushed it through the barrel. Severe if bullet is tightly lodged and next bullet causes barrel to explode.

Semi-Automatic: Results in cartridge discharging with bullet entering the barrel but does not exit.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round or bullet is lightly lodged and will exit if next round pushed it through the barrel. Severe if bullet is tightly lodged and next bullet causes barrel to explode.

-Failure of the primer to discharge immediately (hang fire)
Revolver: Bullet still in shell casing
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round. Possible severe if user squeezes trigger for subsequent round and round discharges when cylinder is not aligned to the barrel causing injury to user or damage to gun.

Semi-Automatic: Bullet still in shell casing
Criticality: Medium if after user manually cycling the slide, the hang fire round is ejected, new round is inserted into the chamber properly, and the gun is ready for next use.

-Backing Out of Bullet from Shell Casing
Revolver: Can cause cylinder not to rotate
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if bullet back out des not interfere with cylinder rotation. Possible severe if bullet backs out far enough to stop cylinder from rotating.

Semi-Automatic: Bullet stuck in magazine
Note: All most not possible because of the way the rounds are held in the magazine.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low as long as there is not issue with feeding the backed out round. Severe if the next round cannot be fed from the magazine.

-Failure to present the round properly so it can be stripped off and inserted into the chamber.
Revolver: Not applicable
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if jam cannot be cleared.

-Not allowing the slide to lock back after the last round in the magazine has been fired.
Revolver: Not applicable
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: No Impact
Criticality: Low as user can eject magazine, insert a new one, and manually cycle the slide.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
User
The high level failures of due to the user and its effect on each type of gun are detailed.

-Not properly holding the gun so as to inhibit semi-automatic from recycling properly (limp wrist)
Revolver: No Impact
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Gun fires but does not cycle the slide properly causing a jam.
Criticality: Medium after user manually cycles the slide.

-Not properly loading rounds into a magazine
Revolver: No Impact
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if user must eject magazine, insert a new one, and manually cycle the slide.

-”Short Stroking” trigger (not pulling the trigger all the way)
Revolver: Gun does not fire but the cylinder rotates.
Criticality: Low as gun fires on next trigger pull

Semi-Automatic: Gun does not fire nor does the slide cycle.
Criticality: Low as gun fires on next trigger pull

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Factors to Consider:

"First shot" Reliability
A semi-automatic has an advantage over a revolver when firing its first shot (or subsequent shots if the gun has cycled properly after firing a round). The advantage for the semi-automatic is that to discharge a round, only the trigger release mechanism and the round have to function properly for the gun to discharge. This is because a round is in the chamber and the firing mechanism is "primed". In a revolver, the cylinder must cycle to align a fresh round to the barrel in order for the gun to function properly. If a revolver is being fired in “single action” mode, then this factor is negated.

Accuracy Repeatability
Assuming a gun is sighted in properly and the ammunition is consistent with what was used to sight in, there can be different point of impact based on the gun design.
Revolver: In most revolvers the sights (front and back) are structurally lined to the barrel. However the cylinder chambers are moved to alight with the forcing cone and the barrel. The alignment of the cylinder chamber to barrel varies with each chamber in the cylinder. This difference in alignment can affect the accuracy.

Semi-Automatic: Except for designs that have the barrel fixed to the frame, barrels on semi-automatics move after each shot and return to position for the next shot. Since the barrel and sights are not structurally fixed together, there can be variability from shot to shot with the barrel to sight alignment. However since the bullet is inserted snugly into the chamber which is part of the barrel, the bullet to barrel alignment is consistent from shot to shot.

Effect of gun powder residue on functionality (fouling)

When the cartridge is discharged, residue from the gun powder is propelled forward and out of the shell casing. This residue adheres to various parts of the gun mechanisms. The effect of the residue is different on a revolver versus a semi-automatic. Different ammunition produces different amount of gun powder residue. So the amount and effects of residue varies considerably between different ammunition.

Revolver:
In a revolver, the bullet is housed in the cylinder where it is discharged. The bullet and any gun powder residue are propelled forward thru the front of the cylinder, across the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, and into the barrel. Gunpowder residue is built up in the inside of the front of the cylinder starting at the top of the shell casing, on the front of the cylinder, on the forcing cone, around the forcing cone (and frame) and in the barrel. The effect can result in the inability to eject shell casing from the cylinder, inability to insert new bullets into the cylinder, opening of the cylinder, and the cylinder not rotating properly. This effect can be observed when firing a revolver that can use both .357 Magnum and 38 Special ammunition. Since the 38 Special bullet is shorter than the .357 Magnum, if it is shot before the .357 Magnum and causes built up inside the cylinder, then issues can occur when .357 Magnum ammunition is inserted into the cylinder-it may not go all the way into the cylinder. Hence the functionality of a revolver is significantly more affected by gun powder residueand more frequent cleaning is needed.

Semi-Automatic:
Since the bullet is discharged in the chamber which is part of the barrel in a semi-automatic, the majority of the gunpowder residue goes down the barrel and ejects out the gun. Some residue comes back into the slide, magazine, and frame. Some also comes out of the barrel and adheres to the front of the barrel plus the front and sides of the slide. The amount of gunpowder residue that adheres to critical parts of a semi-automatic is significantly less than in a revolver. Hence the functionality of a semi-automatic is significantly less affected and it can function reliability for more rounds before cleaning is needed.

LONGEST POST WINNER. Even longer than my wife's answer to a yes/no question.

texmex · #**104** 07-05-2018, 01:38 PM

A revolver will handle light loads or heavy loads without any change or trouble.
There is no safety to work and you don’t have to worry about whether a round is in the chamber or not.
A revolver doesn’t depend on a box magazine. Most magazines are flimsy sheet metal and easily damaged.
The revolver will fire if pressed hard against an adversary. Many autos will be pushed out of battery from such pressure and will not fire.
An auto can have the safety accidentally disengaged or have the magazine accidentally released. This makes it more likely to fire when you don’t want it to or not fire when you want it to.
A dud cartridge in an auto means you have to eject that cartridge and chamber another round. On a revolver, you just pull the trigger again.
Revolvers handle cartridges from 22 short to 500 magnum.

AUTOS ARE A PASSING FAD.

Paper Clip · #**105** 07-05-2018, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texmex

A REVOLVER WILL HANDLE LIGHT LOADS OR HEAVY LOADS WITHOUT ANY CHANGE OR TROUBLE.
THERE IS NO SAFETY TO WORK AND YOU DON’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHETHER A ROUND IS IN THE CHAMBER OR NOT.
A REVOLVER DOESN’T DEPEND ON A BOX MAGAZINE. MOST MAGAZINES ARE FLIMSY SHEET METAL AND EASILY DAMAGED.
THE REVOLVER WILL FIRE IF PRESSED HARD AGAINST AN ADVERSARY. MANY AUTOS WILL BE PUSHED OUT OF BATTERY FROM SUCH PRESSURE AND WILL NOT FIRE.
AN AUTO CAN HAVE THE SAFETY ACCIDENTALLY DISENGAGED OR HAVE THE MAGAZINE ACCIDENTALLY RELEASED. THIS MAKES IT MORE LIKELY TO FIRE WHEN YOU DON’T WANT IT TO OR NOT FIRE WHEN YOU WANT IT TO.
A DUD CARTRIDGE IN AN AUTO MEANS YOU HAVE TO EJECT THAT CARTRIDGE AND CHAMBER ANOTHER ROUND. ON A REVOLVER, YOU JUST PULL THE TRIGGER AGAIN.
REVOLVERS HANDLE CARTRIDGES FROM 22 SHORT TO 500 MAGNUM.

Autos are a passing fad.

Don't know if it was intended this way or not, but I read the entire post in an angry, screaming voice.

DonD · #**106** 07-05-2018, 03:35 PM

All I would say is that I believe that if you compared a mixture of 100 revolvers each from Ruger and S&W with 100 semi autos each from those same manufacturers, my bet would be on the revolvers, particularly if you factored in the issue (however that could be done) of defensive uses where nerves could likely induce limp wristing in a semi with nothing comparable from the revolver.

Revolvers require little if any break in, unlike semis. I don't think knowledgeable shooters would use a semi for CCW unless it had 100-200 flawless rounds through it.

A revolver should be "good to go" if it has a flawless cylinder full through it. Don

bmcgilvray · #**107** 07-05-2018, 04:04 PM

The automatics get an alibi for poor function when "limp-wristing" is inserted in a forum discussion. How well will an alibi stop an assault? Do we want to rely on handguns that have the capability of failure due to limp-wristing?

Nanuk · #**108** 07-05-2018, 05:20 PM

Depends on the revolver. I have a Ruger Single Six I bought new in 1975 and has 10's upon 10's of thousands of rounds fired and never a malfunction. I have never seen a semi do that but several revolvers.

Practical · #**109** 07-05-2018, 05:24 PM

I am going to discuss this with the Mechanical guys at work that calculate our MTBF for some of our products. One of them is a gun guy.

I don't think he will think I am killing a sacred cow as he is shotgun guy first.

texmex · #**110** 07-05-2018, 05:32 PM

Here is a quote from Hilton Yam. "You really need to shoot the gun for 1000-1500 rounds, to include about 500 or more rounds with duty ammunition to have a good feel for what the gun is doing. Do not just put "200 flawless rounds" through the gun and declare that it is "completely reliable." That is not a statistically significant cycle of service."
The platform in this instance was the 1911. When you think about auto pistols in general, there is some concern about it being reliable with different brands or types of ammunition. It may work fine with some brands or styles of hollow point ammo but not another. They are obviously sensitive to different power levels of ammo (hardball vs. wadcutters or other target loads). Revolvers are not sensitive to bullet shape. Ball, wadcutter, semi-wadcutter or hollow point, if it goes into the chambers and the cylinder will turn when you close it, it will probably work. One of the few concerns would be bullets jumping the crimp when fired in lighter weight revolvers such as a 357 model 340 or 44 Magnum model 329. Also, anything interfering with slide movement (such as a barricade) may cause a malfunction. Autos probably are not reliable when fired from inside a coat pocket. Revolvers usually work fine but it is pretty hard on the coat.

500SNW · #**111** 07-05-2018, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister X

What gun and what ammo?

Oops, sorry I never answered until now, but I'm not getting my notifications lately. The revolver is a 2.625" 627 PC. I seem to have trouble with the Hornady XTP's pulling crimp, but never my cast bullet loads. It happened (for the third time) a couple weeks ago and I just pressed down on the bullet nose with my thumb and it eased back down into the case enough to allow the cylinder to rotate. It only happens with the short barreled 627...yet I don't think I am "limp wristing" it. I think it is just a case of a short, sharp recoil impulse causing bullets to pull crimp. The same bullets work fine in my 4" barrel 586. It is only a problem because I concealed carry the 627 fairly often. The fix is to stick with my cast bullet loads...they work flawlessly. I suppose I could work on getting a better crimp on my handloads, but TBH after 3 lockups I just don't trust JHP's.

JDinAZ · #**112** 07-06-2018, 10:41 AM

Revolvers

Don't forget that if you HAD to you can discharge that centennial or bodyguard J frame from inside your pocket or thru the side of a purse for the ladies that carry. Without showing what's coming and without snagging. Give that a whirl with a semi and you'll probably wind up with a tangled up mess by the time the slide snags something and binds up.

3rdgeargrndrr · #**113** 07-06-2018, 06:25 PM

I believe

This thread would have gone in a completely different direction...

In the Taurus forum

3rdgeargrndrr · #**114** 07-06-2018, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinAZ

Revolvers

Don't forget that if you HAD to you can discharge that centennial or bodyguard J frame from inside your pocket or thru the side of a purse for the ladies that carry. .

EXACTLY. Your sick children/wife/mother will ONLY ask for cough medicine at 3Am and the ONLY pharmacy open is that one across the train tracks with multiple thugs hanging around the entrance.
Either flash the grip from the 1911 in your waistband

or walk to the door with your hands in your sweatshirt pockets

.
I always keep a "RESOLVER" in the carry rotation

Beemer-mark · #**115** 07-09-2018, 10:25 PM

Back on track as to reliability - I think we can agree it's the ammo that isn't reliable. I reload and don't really shoot much factory ammo but in a revolver there are numerous issues with ammo that can cause a the cylinder to bind. A lot of older hand guns (Colt SAA) have chambers that don't meet SAMMI specs. So rounds don't always chamber. An ever so slight high primer will bind the gun. One of the worse is insufficient crimp causing one of the unfired the bullets to jump out slightly binding the cylinder. Most of these issues are found when attempting to load. Once in a great while, for reasons unknown, a cartridge will not go BANG when the hammer hits the primer. Doesn't disable the gun and usually goes BANG on the next go around.

Same ammo issues in a semi will usually ties the gun up until you drop the mag, pull the slide and clear the bullet. You also have issues with failure to feed if the round is slightly out of spec. For carry guns I test every single round. Factory or not. Put it in the gun. In a revolver make sure the cylinder turns freely. Inspect the crimp. In my 1911 I load the magazine and pull the slide repeatably until all the rounds have cycled thru and then put them back in the magazine.

Guns are pretty reliable. People and ammo isn't.

Ziggy2525 · #**116** 07-10-2018, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Practical

I am going to discuss this with the Mechanical guys at work that calculate our MTBF for some of our products. One of them is a gun guy.

I don't think he will think I am killing a sacred cow as he is shotgun guy first.

I don't think the approach you're considering will work like you're expecting. Even through pistols are simple machines, reliability calculations would be different for a pistol than something that's in continuous use like an air conditioner or a pump motor.

I think you'd be looking at the number of cycles (shots) between failures and the mean time to return the pistol to service (MTTR). Plus you'd need to consider the duty cycle of the pistol. e.g. how close together the shots are together - the effects of expansion/contraction due to heating and cooling could impact wear and tear (and reliability). e.g. shooting 1,000 rounds, one round a month will probably create less wear and tear than shooting 100 rounds in 15 minutes, each day for 10 days.

Too many variables. I suspect pistol manufacturers have a small number of different usage profiles set up they test against when they design a pistol. Maybe one for casual use, one for competitive use, one for military/police use. They have some proprietary algorithm they use to evaluate the failures in each of those categories, then modify those calcs with empirical data from repair returns.

Since as consumers we don't have access to any of that info, about all we can do is look at ad hoc info from users. Certain pistols and revolvers have a reputation for exceptional reliability. Others don't. No guarantee for a specific pistol/revolver though.

gunsmithalot · #**117** 07-10-2018, 10:56 AM

Thank you all for the great input, I am learning all the time I am here. Hope to contribute good info to this forum.

zogger · #**118** 07-10-2018, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Practical

I am going to discuss this with the Mechanical guys at work that calculate our MTBF for some of our products. One of them is a gun guy.

I don't think he will think I am killing a sacred cow as he is shotgun guy first.

I will be interested to see what they have to say about my very long post on reliability. I used to do those things for a living.

mpc · #**119** 07-10-2018, 02:28 PM

Personally, I have never had any issues with my revolvers. My semi-autos on the other hand, I've had to perform many immediate action drills, thankfully at the range. I am also a stickler on keeping my weapons clean. Maybe it's the magazines, the ammo or what not, but at the end of the day, I feel more comfortable with a revolver, even if it's a slower reload for me

uncleted327 · #**120** 07-10-2018, 02:44 PM

By their very operation revolvers will ALWAYS be more reliable than a semiautomatic, given we are talking about quality firearms on both sides. The ammo in a semi needs to have a good magazine, seated properly, a flawless transfer from the mag to the chamber, fire and propel the bullet, move the slide to reset the trigger and load the next round, eject cleanly despite any issues with the gun itself or the shooters grip and actions and then do that every time you pull the trigger. The ammo in the revolver needs to fire and propel the bullet...and that's it. Only then can we start talking about possible issues with the mechanical parts of the guns themselves...

Ziggy2525 · #**121** 07-10-2018, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zogger52

I will be interested to see what they have to say about my very long post on reliability. I used to do those things for a living.

Back in the old days, when I was working as a dishwasher at the local diner, I used to moonlight in the evenings at the local nuclear power plant doing some equipment reliability calcs and FMEA analysis do determine the probability of equipment failure if a loss of coolant accident occurred. Back in those days it wasn't very highly thought of work so was mostly limited to the unemployables.

The one thing I'd say about your post based on my limited experience is no matter how well you try to conceptualize the various modes of failure, without some basis to quantify the actual failure rates of the various components, the assessment will be off. But then again, I was just washing dishes for a living.

jtcarm · #**122** 07-10-2018, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncleted327

By their very operation revolvers will ALWAYS be more reliable than a semiautomatic, given we are talking about quality firearms on both sides. The ammo in a semi needs to have a good magazine, seated properly, a flawless transfer from the mag to the chamber, fire and propel the bullet, move the slide to reset the trigger and load the next round, eject cleanly despite any issues with the gun itself or the shooters grip and actions and then do that every time you pull the trigger. The ammo in the revolver needs to fire and propel the bullet...and that's it. Only then can we start talking about possible issues with the mechanical parts of the guns themselves...

After seeing other posts from the OP, it’s obvious he’s not interested in a real discussion and is just trolling to get a rise out of revolver shooters.

He’s not getting any more of my bandwidth.

muddocktor · #**123** 07-10-2018, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jtcarm

After seeing other posts from the OP, it’s obvious he’s not interested in a real discussion and is just trolling to get a rise out of revolver shooters.

He’s not getting any more of my bandwidth.

I have to agree with you, jtcarn. Just trolling the revolver forums to get a rise out of the revolver shooters.

I have revolvers (quite a few) and semi auto handguns in metal frame and also polymer plastic fantastics. I have had mechanical malfunctions with both, but there is just more to malfunction with a semi auto, in my opinion. To each their own. If you like the plastic bottom feeders then good for you. I happen to like something more substantial in hand, but that is what I feel best with. The added weight mitigates recoil and lets me get back on target a bit quicker, but that is my experience. But I don't go into the bottom feeder forums and troll them with statements about my revolvers being more reliable than their bottom feeders.

fortyshooter · #**124** 07-10-2018, 07:04 PM

Well my only two plastic fantastic semi-autos would laugh and run circles around my new Model 69 Combat Magnum 4 shooter right now!

WC145 · #**125** 07-10-2018, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Practical

I like revolver's. I enjoy shooting the and just looking at them, however, I no longer believe they are as reliable as a well designed Law Enforcement Semi-Auto.

I KNOW this is an opinion. I would like to back it up with facts but without an employee leaking information or a analysis of a revolver or long term tests we can't prove it.

It's not the lock in Smith & Wesson or the changing of manufacturing processes to MIM with all major manufacturers.

I still think they better serve a gun owning population that need a gun to stored in a home and ready for use but used seldom and given little attention.

However, I think the reliability of carried often and shot often Semi-Auto design used for LEO use is more reliable for a more active an well trained user.

The issue is basically the engineering and manufacturing processes used in today's semi-autos and their widespread use ensure manufacturers compete to win these markets and put their best products forward.

In contrast, Revolvers aside for security use in some cities in the US are consumer grade products. The LOCK demonstrates this. Even on competition models like the Competitor or Performance Center guns.

What pushed me to this post was watching a youtube video of a 7 Shot GP100 which could not close it's cylinder because some brass specs were a little too large. Maybe the rims expanded or were out of spec, but when a revolver can't be closed because of it's design when loaded the manufacturer has reached a new low. Unfortunately this is not new, I had a new Colt double action revolver fail to function with almost all brands of ammo 20+ years ago. It only held 6 rounds. Just before they stopped making revolvers. I can see why they stopped. Why ruin your reputation.

I no longer believe in revolvers...

The problems with opinions is that they are just that, opinions, and many, such as this one, have no basis in fact. And, no matter how much you want such an opinion to be true, it just isn't.

And, the example you cite as pushing you to this post is not a failure of the revolver in question but the ammunition. If you had ammunition that one would use in an auto that suffered from the same issue would not chamber properly in an auto nor allow the slide to close.

Good luck in your quest to prove your opinion but I'm afraid it's doomed to failure.

Nanuk · #**126** 07-11-2018, 12:36 PM

[QUOTE=Kiwi cop;140088721
Revolvers are good for those who shoot and train little, provided they are properly maintained.

Semi autos are good for those who shoot and train a lot, given the more varied ways they can malfunction.

[/QUOTE]

But what about the revolver shooter that trains alot? I carried a 357 mag for decades on duty and shot on the pistol team. Now that I am retired I still carry a 357 mag and shoot competitively.

What you mean is more training is required to run a semi well.

Fchewy · #**127** 07-12-2018, 06:31 AM

I have one of the new 7 shot GP100's with 2.5" barrel and have ran across only one brand of ammo thats "tight" when loaded with 7, 6 is fine in it, the ammo is cheap WWB target rounds, all of my defense loads from multiple brands work fine.
IMO really ain't any different than a Semi that won't feed certain brands or hollow points and then you also have the magazine problems to deal with like the Shield that double over own themselves and quit working, I own a 9mm Shield and like it though, or like the Sig P365 that seems to have multiple issues.

Engieman · #**128** 07-12-2018, 08:54 AM

Further testing is required. Only way to be absolutely sure is to buy as many S&W revolvers possible and see if they all shoot. Can’t be too careful when scientifically testing theories.

MightyMouse4466 · #**129** 07-14-2018, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clang444

I never saw a revolver fail to fire due to limp wristing.

I have had my 629 fatally jam due to limp wristing by a friend, it was cheap factory reload ammo, and the bullet slid forward in it's case and jammed the revolver to the point it would not fire, would not rotate at all, could not open cylinder, had to push the bullet into the case for it to rotate, complete catastrophic failure to function.

This type of failure turned the revolver into a club.

I love revolvers, but prefer to carry autos, for more capacity, and for the ease of correcting malfunctions, just replace mag and rack.

JayFramer · #**130** 07-14-2018, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Practical

I like revolver's. I enjoy shooting the and just looking at them, however, I no longer believe they are as reliable as a well designed Law Enforcement Semi-Auto.

I KNOW this is an opinion. I would like to back it up with facts but without an employee leaking information or a analysis of a revolver or long term tests we can't prove it.

It's not the lock in Smith & Wesson or the changing of manufacturing processes to MIM with all major manufacturers.

I still think they better serve a gun owning population that need a gun to stored in a home and ready for use but used seldom and given little attention.

However, I think the reliability of carried often and shot often Semi-Auto design used for LEO use is more reliable for a more active an well trained user.

The issue is basically the engineering and manufacturing processes used in today's semi-autos and their widespread use ensure manufacturers compete to win these markets and put their best products forward.

In contrast, Revolvers aside for security use in some cities in the US are consumer grade products. The LOCK demonstrates this. Even on competition models like the Competitor or Performance Center guns.

What pushed me to this post was watching a youtube video of a 7 Shot GP100 which could not close it's cylinder because some brass specs were a little too large. Maybe the rims expanded or were out of spec, but when a revolver can't be closed because of it's design when loaded the manufacturer has reached a new low. Unfortunately this is not new, I had a new Colt double action revolver fail to function with almost all brands of ammo 20+ years ago. It only held 6 rounds. Just before they stopped making revolvers. I can see why they stopped. Why ruin your reputation.

I no longer believe in revolvers...

Poppycock.

I've had out-of-specification brass keep my Glock slide from going into battery.

You think that's only a revolver problem? It's not, period. And malf you can name with a revolver can be had with an auto. The reverse is NOT true.

Revolvers are more reliable. They are more durable and dependable, they are not outdated. The men that shoot them, true shootists that grew up in times when men were men, know how to shoot more than most of today's pray and sprays with their bucket of bullets under the gun blasting.

A fightsman so armed with a wheelgun of his chosing is today no less a foe than when Sammy Colt whipped up the first one in his shop over a century ago. I'd take one in a gun fight ANY DAY over the new jamomatic tupperware. WOOD AND STEEL rule the day. Plastic don't belong in no guns no how that's what ma daddy taught me.

Struckat · #**131** 07-14-2018, 08:33 AM

The revolver is not at fault for a crimp jump stoppage, that is an ammunition issue.

I reload and take great care in my process which results in better quality control than factory ammo. I feel that is a big part of the reliability of my Sigs and CZs. The only stopages I have had were due to poor quality factory ammo.

I have had crimp jump in a revolver. That was part of the learning process as a new reloader. That was an ammo issue.
If your revolver stops due to crud, that is a maintenance issue. If it crud’s up after only a small number of rounds, that is an ammo issue.

I have had only one firearm actually break, that was a revolver. The hand that turns the cyl broke inside the gun during normal operation. I can only assume that was a bad part.

My gut tells me that the revolver is more reliable, but there is a lot required to prove such a point. A point that no one will spend the time and money required to prove scientifically.

I carry both, and trust both equally.

If the OP is indeed a troll, then wow, that was quite a post just to get rise out of some old bones.

Nanuk · #**132** 07-19-2018, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyMouse4466

I have had my 629 fatally jam due to limp wristing by a friend, it was cheap factory reload ammo, and the bullet slid forward in it's case and jammed the revolver to the point it would not fire, would not rotate at all, could not open cylinder, had to push the bullet into the case for it to rotate, complete catastrophic failure to function.

This type of failure turned the revolver into a club.

I love revolvers, but prefer to carry autos, for more capacity, and for the ease of correcting malfunctions, just replace mag and rack.

That was an ammo failure, not a gun failure.

500SNW · #**133** 07-20-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nanuk

That was an ammo failure, not a gun failure.

That's true, but the point was that "limp wristing" a revolver enhances the centrifugal forces on the bullets and makes crimp jump more likely...whereas a very rigid grip keeps muzzle flip down to a minimum and reduces the "whiplash" on the bullets.

mdf9183 · #**134** 07-20-2018, 02:10 PM

I was always a wheel gun guy when I was a LEO. Even when the dept. went to autos in the late 80s I kept my Mod 19. I was plainclothes by then but a lot of the investigators went to autos but I was not comfortable with them. I did get a S&W 915 but never carried it. I still mostly shoot revolvers but I do have several autos that I shoot also. There is just something about a revolver that it will go bang every time along as you keep it clean and use good ammo.

kci-mia · #**135** 07-20-2018, 02:39 PM

I took a 3 day revolver self-defense course years ago with a well known instructor. There were 16 students in our class and most of us had 4" service revolver from S&W (K&L frame and one N frame) and Ruger (GP100). I don't remember any Colt revolver in that class. I fired about 1,100 rounds in 3 days using my 4" S&W model 19 (I brought a pair of 4" model 10 as back up) which was about what everybody else fired. I was firing my handload of Winchester 158gr JHP with enough Winchester 231 to get average of 875 fps from 4" barrel so it was not a mild load. By end of the class 4 revolvers had mechanical failures which made it unusable. More importantly 3 could not be repaired at the range (one Ruger revolver failed on first day but was repaired and back on line on second day). I was told by the instructor that in an average class 2 or 3 revolvers will have mechanical failure during the course.

I believe revolvers are more reliable than service pistols but revolvers are not as durable as service pistols.

153 · #**136** 07-20-2018, 05:31 PM

In my experience Murphy visits revolvers and semi-autos, he is very open minded.

A clean, well maintained firearm and good quality ammo are the best insurance.

shawn mccarver · #**137** 07-20-2018, 05:57 PM

In the mid-70s, I had the opinion that revolvers were more reliable for LE and defense that semi-autos. I am not sure why I thought that in light of the military's adoption of the 1911 in, well, 1911.

That said, one day, I was on the range, and my Model 27 locked up tight. At home, on the bench, under a bright light, I carefully disassembled, and after taking out almost everything, a tiny sliver of lead fell loose from the area near the frame window for the cylinder stop. After a careful wipe down, light oil, and reassembly, everything worked like brand new.

It then became apparent to me that a tiny piece of almost anything could lock up a revolver, and that it takes special tools and a work bench to disassemble and to reassemble.

That day, the Model 27 was put away in its box. A range toy Colt Government Model .45 Model 1911A1 Series 70 replaced it as my every day carry. Ball ammo is so reliable as to be monotonous, and it does nicely, and the 5 inch 1911 carries easier because it is flatter, and a new-fangled "Summer Special" became the holster of choice (Mexican carry does nicely also). Carried in Condition One (and only), that day is the day I realized that Uncle Jeff had it right.

From that point on, the revolver was the range toy (K22), at least until it was replaced by Bill Ruger's 22 Auto. They are nearly impossible to clean, so I just don't - at least I haven't really, for all these years. So, the beautiful S&W works of art are now put away, to be enjoyed more for their beauty than for their practicality. The self-loaders have become the work horses.

When I discovered that the 1911 and the Ruger can go thousands of rounds without much more than keeping them lubed, I pretty well came to the conclusion I had been wrong.

S&Ws are still the go to revolvers of choice (when I want to go to one), but I find that the semi-auto pistol does nicely for me. And, there is nothing more handsome than a heavy S&W revolver. That said, for me anyway, the revolver has been replaced as a defense weapon so long ago that the idea that self-loaders are just being discovered in the last couple of decades is a source of endless amusement.

Don't get me wrong - a heavy Magnum is a source of comfort if that is all you have. That said, the 1911 seems to have been the correct answer to a question asked over a hundred years ago, and it is only in the last 40 to 50 years, give or take, that the rest of us are getting it.

While it may seem quaint, a pair of 1911s and a few cases of its big 230 grain cartridges are very comforting to have around - for that day.

Practical · #**138** 08-13-2018, 10:20 PM

Ziggy2525 had the best response I heard. My coworker felt there could be a statistical model of reliability based on number of rounds shot and parts replaced in the manufacturers testing regimen. Some 3d modeling might show motion and predicted wear as well he thought.

I think a usage profile for a product best likely indicates expected reliability.

And honestly this fits my preconceived notion of buying guns designed for heavy competition for reliability for number of rounds fired matching that type of game or buying a handgun for self defense which was designed for the LEO market to benefit.

Maybe this explains the popularity of the certain S&W models and dash numbers like the 686-4 with forged parts being a preferred model. It is peak S&W production material and methods for the model, the model is designed for the LEO market and it has all features that the market demanded before the 686 moved to a consumer handgun with the Lock, MIM materials to keep costs down by reducing labor. The gun product category is now a consumer product.

This is my reasoning why certain models though having high reliability now have risks of having 'potentially' lower reliability than former models.

This does not mean they are not highly reliable, but they as a product category are not as reliable as other guns.

Whether or NOT you and I need that 'degree' of quality is up to us as purchasers.

Practical · #**139** 08-13-2018, 10:23 PM

I have formed my opinion on this subject. the guns I trust will be ones designed for the application I performing with them and will be leaders in their product category.

Which means I will own at least ONE glock and one S&W J-Frame that is either new and broken in or will be a higher quality one like an M&P revolver.

Elkins45 · #**140** 08-13-2018, 11:22 PM

An auto shooter has no idea if the 17 rounds of ammo in his magazine will feed without firing them. You can’t really hand cycle them because that doesn’t simulate the forces involved, and because of possibly inducing bullet setback. The plonk test is about the best you can do.

The revolver shooter can load his six rounds before firing and can hand rotate the cylinder to make sure they clear. Once that has been determined the only stoppage might be something like a primer flowing into the firing pin hole...and that would likely have happened when the gun was sighted or otherwise previously fired with the same batch of ammo.

My point is that a revolver shooter can know in advance if his rounds are going to function in his particular gun.

Others have said it before that revolvers are more tolerant of neglect while autos are more tolerant of abuse. I plan to do neither.

Chubbo · #**141** 09-09-2018, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zogger52

Awhile back I did this analysis:

Revolver vs Semi-Automatic Handgun Reliability Using FMECA Approach

Summary of Results:

Modern handguns are extremely reliable. They are capable of firing many thousands of rounds with no malfunctions. In evaluating the difference in reliability between revolvers and semi-automatic handguns, the primary difference is the dependence of the gun on external factors such as user, ammo, and magazine (if a semi-automatic).
The user’s ability to properly manipulate and hold a semi-automatic is a key to semi-automatic reliability. Revolvers have less dependency upon the user than semi-automatics.

After the gun user, a gun system is most dependent upon the ammunition. Since ammunition is used once and an individual bullet can't be tested without "consuming" it, it is not possible to know with absolute certainty if a specific bullet will perform properly in a gun before using it.

Semi-automatics are more dependent than revolvers upon properly functioning ammunition since the stripping the bullet from the magazine, inserting the round into the chamber, discharge of the round, extraction of the used round, ejection of the used round, movement of the slide rearward due to ammunition discharge has significant dependences on the ammunition for properly functionality.

Semi-autos also require that magazines function properly for the gun to operate properly.

Semi-automatics have higher "first shot" reliability assuming a round has been properly inserted in the chamber.

Revolvers generally have slightly higher accuracy repeatability due to the barrel and sights being mechanically fixed.

Semi-automatics are generally less susceptible to fouling due to gun powder residue than revolvers. Hence semi-automatics generally do not need to be cleaned as often.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

System Description:
The handgun system consists of the following components:
-Gun
-Ammunition
-Magazine for semi-automatics
-User

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assumptions:
1) The gun is being maintained properly. Proper cleaning, lubrication, tightening of screws, and replacement of parts that wear (like recoil springs) are performed at recommended intervals.
2) Proper ammunition is being used.
3) The magazines used in semi-automatics are compatible with the gun.
4) The gun has been "broken in" by firing the recommended number of rounds of the recommended type.
5) The user is familiar with the gun, ammunition, magazine, etc. and handles it per the instruction manual.
6) Revolver is being shot in Double Action mode

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
General Operation:

Revolver: The user opens the cylinder, inserts the rounds, and closes the cylinder. He then points the gun at the target and squeezes the trigger. The action of squeezing the trigger rotates the cylinder to align a round to the barrel and retracts the hammer. Once the trigger has be moved back far enough to release the hammer, the gun discharges the round.

Semi-Automatic: The user loads the magazine with the ammunition and inserts the magazine into the gun. He then cycles the slide to load a round in the chamber which cocks the hammer/firing pin/striker priming the firing mechanism. He then points the gun at the target, releases any safety mechanisms, and squeezes the trigger. The gun discharges the round and then cycles the slide to load another round into the chamber. The cycling of the slide re-cocks the hammer/firing pin/striker re-priming the firing mechanism.

Note that in a semi-automatic that as long as there was a round in the magazine to load into the chamber, the gun is ready to shoot the next round. After discharge in a revolver, the discharged round remains aligned with the barrel hence squeezing of the trigger (or cocking of the hammer in a single action revolver) is needed to move a live round into firing position.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Definition of Critically Levels:

Low: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel but the gun is capable of discharging on next trigger squeeze.

Medium: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Manual action is required to set the gun for next use.

High: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Gun system will no longer operate.

Severe: Round does not discharge and/or exits the barrel. Damage occurs to the gun system or injury to user.

Note: Normally a probability is given for each failure mode. However there are little statistics available on these failures, hence no probabilities are used in the analysis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A High Level Listing for Credible Failure Modes for Each Component:

The high level credible failures for reach component of the gun system (gun, ammunition, magazine, and user) are detailed.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gun:
The high level credible failures for revolvers and semi-automatics are detailed.

Revolver:
-Failure to properly align the cylinder to the barrel.
Results in bullet not discharging or not properly going into the barrel. Possible damage to user and gun.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if cylinder aligns properly on next trigger pull. Severe if injury to user or damage to gun.

-Failure to strike the primer with sufficient force to cause it to discharge the round.
Results in bullet not going into the barrel (light primer strikes)
Criticality: Low to High. Low if next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if gun will no longer strike primer with enough force.

Semi-Automatic:
-Failure to properly strip a round from the magazine and insert it into the chamber.
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. Severe if jam cannot be cleared.

-Failure to strike the primer with sufficient force to cause it to discharge the round
Results in a non-discharge.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can cycle the slide to eject the unfired round and insert a new round into the chamber. High if unfired round cannot be cleared and new round inserted.

-Failure to eject the discharged round properly
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if jam cannot be cleared.

-Failure to prime the firing mechanism for the next shot.
Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if after user manually cycling the slide, the next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if gun will no longer strike primer with enough force (light primer strikes)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammunition
The high level failures of ammunition and its effect on each type of gun are detailed.

-Failure of the primer to discharge even when the primer is struck with sufficient force (dud)

Revolver: Same as a light primer strike.
Criticality: Low to High. Low if next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if all subsequent rounds also do not discharge.

Semi-Automatic: Same as a light primer strike.
Criticality: Medium to High. Low if after the user manually cycles the slide, the next rounds discharges when user squeezes the trigger to fire the next round. High if all subsequent rounds also do not discharge.

-Failure of the bullet to travel fully out of the barrel due to insufficient force (squib)
Revolver: Results in cartridge discharging with bullet entering the barrel but does not exit.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round or bullet is lightly
lodged and will exit if next round pushed it through the barrel. Severe if bullet is tightly lodged and next bullet causes barrel to explode.

Semi-Automatic: Results in cartridge discharging with bullet entering the barrel but does not exit.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round or bullet is lightly lodged and will exit if next round pushed it through the barrel. Severe if bullet is tightly lodged and next bullet causes barrel to explode.

-Failure of the primer to discharge immediately (hang fire)
Revolver: Bullet still in shell casing
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if user does not fire next round. Possible severe if user squeezes trigger for subsequent round and round discharges when cylinder is not aligned to the barrel causing injury to user or damage to gun.

Semi-Automatic: Bullet still in shell casing
Criticality: Medium if after user manually cycling the slide, the hang fire round is ejected, new round is inserted into the chamber properly, and the gun is ready for next use.

-Backing Out of Bullet from Shell Casing
Revolver: Can cause cylinder not to rotate
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low if bullet back out des not interfere with cylinder rotation. Possible severe if bullet backs out far enough to stop cylinder from rotating.

Semi-Automatic: Bullet stuck in magazine
Note: All most not possible because of the way the rounds are held in the magazine.
Criticality: Low to Severe. Low as long as there is not issue with feeding the backed out round. Severe if the next round cannot be fed from the magazine.

-Failure to present the round properly so it can be stripped off and inserted into the chamber.
Revolver: Not applicable
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if jam cannot be cleared.

-Not allowing the slide to lock back after the last round in the magazine has been fired.
Revolver: Not applicable
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: No Impact
Criticality: Low as user can eject magazine, insert a new one, and manually cycle the slide.

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User
The high level failures of due to the user and its effect on each type of gun are detailed.

-Not properly holding the gun so as to inhibit semi-automatic from recycling properly (limp wrist)
Revolver: No Impact
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Gun fires but does not cycle the slide properly causing a jam.
Criticality: Medium after user manually cycles the slide.

-Not properly loading rounds into a magazine
Revolver: No Impact
Criticality: None

Semi-Automatic: Results in a jam.
Criticality: Medium to High. Medium if user can clear the jam and another round can be inserted into the chamber. High if user must eject magazine, insert a new one, and manually cycle the slide.

-”Short Stroking” trigger (not pulling the trigger all the way)
Revolver: Gun does not fire but the cylinder rotates.
Criticality: Low as gun fires on next trigger pull

Semi-Automatic: Gun does not fire nor does the slide cycle.
Criticality: Low as gun fires on next trigger pull

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Other Factors to Consider:

"First shot" Reliability
A semi-automatic has an advantage over a revolver when firing its first shot (or subsequent shots if the gun has cycled properly after firing a round). The advantage for the semi-automatic is that to discharge a round, only the trigger release mechanism and the round have to function properly for the gun to discharge. This is because a round is in the chamber and the firing mechanism is "primed". In a revolver, the cylinder must cycle to align a fresh round to the barrel in order for the gun to function properly. If a revolver is being fired in “single action” mode, then this factor is negated.

Accuracy Repeatability
Assuming a gun is sighted in properly and the ammunition is consistent with what was used to sight in, there can be different point of impact based on the gun design.
Revolver: In most revolvers the sights (front and back) are structurally lined to the barrel. However the cylinder chambers are moved to alight with the forcing cone and the barrel. The alignment of the cylinder chamber to barrel varies with each chamber in the cylinder. This difference in alignment can affect the accuracy.

Semi-Automatic: Except for designs that have the barrel fixed to the frame, barrels on semi-automatics move after each shot and return to position for the next shot. Since the barrel and sights are not structurally fixed together, there can be variability from shot to shot with the barrel to sight alignment. However since the bullet is inserted snugly into the chamber which is part of the barrel, the bullet to barrel alignment is consistent from shot to shot.

Effect of gun powder residue on functionality (fouling)

When the cartridge is discharged, residue from the gun powder is propelled forward and out of the shell casing. This residue adheres to various parts of the gun mechanisms. The effect of the residue is different on a revolver versus a semi-automatic. Different ammunition produces different amount of gun powder residue. So the amount and effects of residue varies considerably between different ammunition.

Revolver:
In a revolver, the bullet is housed in the cylinder where it is discharged. The bullet and any gun powder residue are propelled forward thru the front of the cylinder, across the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone, and into the barrel. Gunpowder residue is built up in the inside of the front of the cylinder starting at the top of the shell casing, on the front of the cylinder, on the forcing cone, around the forcing cone (and frame) and in the barrel. The effect can result in the inability to eject shell casing from the cylinder, inability to insert new bullets into the cylinder, opening of the cylinder, and the cylinder not rotating properly. This effect can be observed when firing a revolver that can use both .357 Magnum and 38 Special ammunition. Since the 38 Special bullet is shorter than the .357 Magnum, if it is shot before the .357 Magnum and causes built up inside the cylinder, then issues can occur when .357 Magnum ammunition is inserted into the cylinder-it may not go all the way into the cylinder. Hence the functionality of a revolver is significantly more affected by gun powder residueand more frequent cleaning is needed.

Semi-Automatic:
Since the bullet is discharged in the chamber which is part of the barrel in a semi-automatic, the majority of the gunpowder residue goes down the barrel and ejects out the gun. Some residue comes back into the slide, magazine, and frame. Some also comes out of the barrel and adheres to the front of the barrel plus the front and sides of the slide. The amount of gunpowder residue that adheres to critical parts of a semi-automatic is significantly less than in a revolver. Hence the functionality of a semi-automatic is significantly less affected and it can function reliability for more rounds before cleaning is needed.

Zogger52;
Drop everything, run, don't wast any time, get your application submitted to the finest, law school, of your choice! I feel sure that a scholarship awaits you at any law school. You have naturally, the required ability, needed by any fine lawyer to use 500 words to explain something, when 5 would suffice. You can be taught the other needed skills. Good fortune.
That's my 2¢ outlook on the matter.
Chubbo

Ribwizzard · #**142** 09-09-2018, 01:44 PM

A = quality revolver is always going to shine over a semi auto until you start talking about capacity. And that's because the semi auto is too reliant on the quality / condition of the ammo. You cant get around that.

EMP3 · #**143** 09-09-2018, 02:03 PM

Revolvers have more moving parts than semis, even double-action semis. Revolvers are more complex in operation. A semi is simplistic in operation. When a revolver fails -and revolvers will fail- it's usually catastrophic meaning it becomes a throwing weapon. While I've never had a good quality semi fail, drills I was taught to clear malfunctions took a few seconds and the semi was back in the fight. I have had S&W revolvers fail & were hopelessly useless until fixed/repaired.

I'd bet that the S&W Model 5904 was more reliable than ANY revolver EVER produced by S&W.

For self-defense, I'd take a Performance Center 3" Model 1911 9MM over ANY revolver.

I'd pit a Sig P229 against any revolver in competition of reliability.

Antiquated beliefs die very slowly. Some hand gunners, especially six shooters, refuse to believe that a semi is more reliable that their beloved revolvers. I'm good. It's their business, not mine.

The reality is revolvers are far more persnickety and vulnerable to catastrophic malfunction than are good-quality semis.

BTW, I Love J-Frame revolvers.

Birdgun · #**144** 09-09-2018, 07:10 PM

You're going into a life or death duel. There are two of the best handguns you can think of on the table; one is your ideal double-action revolver, the other is your ideal semi-auto pistol. You have first choice. Your opponent, who is as equally skilled as you, will use the other.

Result of the duel: you're both dead. ;-)

PS.
No man can whip me in a fair fight.

That's because it's not fair to chase a man down and then whip him.

God bless,
Birdgun

5 iron · #**145** 09-12-2018, 10:55 AM

For full size semis intended for professional use, I would agree that semis in this class are very reliable. For small concealed carry handguns, I don’t think semis are as reliable as revolvers, especially when you get down to pocket size handguns.

typetwelve · #**146** 09-12-2018, 11:30 AM

I'll make this short/sweet. A VERY knowledgable firearms instructor once told me this:

"Look at nearly any situation where a good guy failed to stop a bad guy during a shootout and you'll find it's most often a lack of marksmanship, not equipment failure."

Are there exceptions to this rule? You bet. Is lack of marksmanship often the failure though? Yup.

I don't focus on the variables...I just can't. Modern day, well known manufacturers of firearms and ammo make great products. The ONLY way to sort out the few lemons is to spend tons of time with the product. When it comes to ammo, this is a complete and unpredictable variable...you pick the best you can find and hope you don't get the 1:1,000,000 dud round. Even data about "stopping power" is all over the place...there are tons of shootings where a typically lethal hit will not stop someone for some reason or another. Again...I cannot focus on this as is is just another variable.

After that, once I cycled a single firearm enough to be relatively sure I don't have a lemon in my hands...the only constant is me and my lack of shooting ability.

gman51 · #**147** 09-12-2018, 01:08 PM

Reading the comments I see people are not looking at how often does a semi auto have a malfunction versus a revolver. I have a Rossi clone to the S&W 36 that in the 30 years I have had it I have never had the gun malfunction.

If a round doesn't fire in a semi auto then it has to be racked to clear the dud round where as the revolver same scenario just take another pull of the trigger for it to go bang. Yeah if you don't have both hands available then racking a SA slide to clear a misfire or jam can be quite a problem.

How about a safety malfunction? Much more prone to that with a SA than a revolver. Why? Revolvers basically don't have a safety to fail or get moved out of position.

SA are known for feeding problems and having a stove jam. How often does that happen with a revolver?
Okay a revolver can have a jam due to the bullet coming forward from the casing due to recoil and jamming the cylinder to the frame but how often does that happen? I shoot mostly just revolvers and in the past 30 years I have had that happen only once. The casing had a hair line crack in it.

HMMM A SA having a jam due to a magazine feed problem, Oh yeah I have experienced that more than a few times. How many times I have read where the magazine release button got hit and dropped the magazine. If the magazine doesn't get locked into position then what happens? Gee I have yet to read of that happening with a revolver.

Sorry but from my experience the revolver scores a nine for being safer and more reliable than a semi auto reliable/safety rating of a six in my book of experience.

Funny how some perspectives don't look at the whole picture. From my experience over many years the revolver is still the most reliable.

People say a Glock goes bang every time. From experience I know that is a myth.

I will continue to carry my revolver and the SA can sit in the safe.

HCH · #**148** 09-12-2018, 01:27 PM

If automatics were not as reliable as revolvers, the military and police never would have switched over to them.

gman51 · #**149** 09-12-2018, 01:36 PM

I believe why the military chose the SA over the revolver was because of capacity and reliability in bad conditions. I believe that also applies to police forces. But that's my opinion.
Then again there is a big difference between a military or police application versus a citizen protecting themselves where there is probably less than a 1% chance of the citizen having to use their gun of choice. Granted a semi auto very possibly could function better in very dirty military situations.

ggibson511960 · #**150** 09-12-2018, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Practical

No this is not spam.

I was hoping for a more 'engineering' based answer. I am not a mechanical engineer, but have electrical and software engineering experience. My knowledge of mechanical reliability is basically none.

The comments here agree with my experience. I have found Glocks, Pre-lock J-Frames and N Frame competition models with Locks to be extremely reliable. I have only had ONE J-frame fail due to a broken part and I have had my glocks fail in competition due to me breaking off a adjustible rear site.

However, other brands and firearm types have failed me right out of the box or shortly after. Colt's including double action revolvers and 1911s, Kahr's, and a Beretta.

I tend to watch reviews closely and am disheartened when I see brand new guns failing regularly or having minor issues that preclude their use in competition or self defense. The issue of the GP100 7 shot is an example of why I don't think most new revolver's can be trusted based on the engineering processes that bring them to us.

I am not saying all the guns today are bad, I am saying SOME of the processes used to make them are NOT suitable for creating a competition gun or self defense product. I think MOST revolvers today are relegated to the 'consumer' side of the house where the assumption is that these guns may require a customer service call at a rate higher than the Semi-Autos used in LEO.

For the record, I am a mechanical engineer, albeit not a specialist in mechanisms, but a firearms enthusiast, nonetheless, familiar and experienced in many of these issues of comparative reliability and durability. All of the recounts on this thread are anecdotal with zero control. I will confess to say that it is intuitively obvious that the simpler revolver mechanism is inherently more reliable in most situations, but that is my subjective opinion. This argument can never be resolved, for there are many classes of comparison. The one I see neglected is how reliable is the firearm to be drawn and fired six or eight times without reloading and not stop, the charging bear scenario. I wish somebody would sponsor me to evaluate this scenario. For most of us civilians I would assert that this case is the one that matters. We are not fighting a war (yet), battling street criminals (yet), or firing thousands of rounds in a competition without cleaning. Too many of these reliability assertions are predicated on one of these scenarios. Militaries and police forces need high capacity repeaters, which overwhelmingly bends the preference to semi-automatics.

Here's my controlled test. Pick a revolver and semi-automatic from similar price points (very important) with similar downrange ballistics from a similar caliber (no .22's against .45's). Procure five samples of each from a retail outlet, pre-qualify each break in each piece with ammunition that each will feed properly (important for the semi). Then bang away in an environment without variables that influence outcome like snow or mud. Five shots, reload, clean up with a simple wipe down. Repeat until a statistically significant number of failures occur, but a minimum of 1,000 rounds from each pistol, a total of 10,000 rounds. Count all the failures including stupid human mistakes like hitting a mag release in the middle of a string. From this data one can easily calculate the mean number of shots between failure. If you think this scenario is biased in favor of revolvers, I guess it is because there is virtually nothing that can go wrong, especially if you decided the scenario was to be single action only. Complexity is the enemy of reliability. Maybe double action only for the revolver is more valid if you define the scenario to be reasonably rapid fire, i.e. at the charging bear.

Any scenario could be evaluated that would have validity if properly controlled to eliminate extraneous variables. This will likely never happen because manufacturers don't want hard data out there to be used against them in their competitors' ad campaigns.

In the end the real statistical differences in reliability are probably de minimus for we civilians, which leaves us choosing pistols for reasons of personal preference, familiarity, suitability for the mission, emotion or whatever. Those reasons are more valid and pertinent than hard statistics that show up beyond the second decimal place of standard deviation.