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Old 07-05-2018, 11:19 AM
Paper Clip Paper Clip is offline
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Default Misconceptions about .38 J Frames for women

Forgive me for this may be a long post. Also, this is just my opinion, I am sure many disagree with me.

I have recently been making some headway in convincing my significant other to get her ccw permit and start keeping a gun with her. I plan on letting her shoot every handgun I own, autos and revolvers, (starting with .38 wadcutters in my 686) and go from there as to what she would like to train with and carry. I have also recently bought a J frame (for myself, not her. Secretly though, I wanted her to be able to shoot one to practice/try it out in a holster, purse, etc). While researching, reading reviews, etc on different J frames/lcrs, I have come across the same thing over and over again that has irked me to the point that I feel the need to post about it.


"J Frames are not for women," "J frames are a terrible choice for your wife," etc...


I am sure all of us know the reasons given for this. More recoil, light gun, heavy trigger pull sums it up for the most part. The part that all of these reviewers and armchair commandos are not acknowledging is that many (probably the vast majority) of women, including my girlfriend, have no interest in guns, shooting, or trying to dress around a gun for concealment. If it is not comfortable, they absolutely will not carry it. Also, there is little interest from many women in extensive training for malfunctions, etc that should be done with an autoloader. My girlfriend will most likely need the simplest thing possible. No slide to rack, no magazine to insert, no safety to disengage, and definitely not a light trigger pull. Lets face it, many of us do not practice as much as we would like. Why in the world would I expect someone not interested in firearms to do so?! If she has to defend herself, it will be at very close range. She will not be running into combat with an active shooter or firing at someone any farther than say, 10 feet away, and that's probably being generous. If I can not get her point-shooting good enough at that distance with a J frame, there is something wrong with me as her teacher, not with the gun. You can always put crimson trace grips on the gun to help too. Yes, let her start with something that is easy to shoot first and gradually let her try the J frame, but there is nothing wrong with a woman carrying a J frame. I would much rather my girlfriend carry a revolver than an automatic, and I know that she will only carry the smallest, lightest thing I can get her. Why should I try to get her to carry something else that is going to end up left at home or in the car? I shouldn't. If she ends up choosing to carry a revolver (which she probably will for simplicity), I feel much better with her having 5 low recoil 148gr wadcutters in an air-weight on her than 7 rounds in an all steel L frame in the car.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:27 AM
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Years ago bought my wife a Sig 232 because of its simplicity and reliability. She could barely use it, even after training.

Moved to a Model 36 with 3" heavy BBL. Added Wolfe springs, touched up the rebound slide, replaced stocks. Much mo betta. Now it's her daily carry... and I pack the Sig.
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Old 07-05-2018, 11:27 AM
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My #1 complaint is first timers buy an airweight and shoot 38s.
I always always always say shoot 22 first. Or even a bb gun.
My wife and kids went from 22 (m63), to mouse fart 38 handloAds (m60) to regular 38. You want to keep them in the game and have fun? Go small first.
Going for the 686 with 38 is a great idea. But my wifes hands are small and even a k frame is too big for her. My kids are not recoil sensitive, they are noise sensitive and I dont like in a supressor friendly state. Subsonic loads and private land shooting were the only way to go for me at first

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Old 07-05-2018, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper Clip View Post
Forgive me for this may be a long post. Also, this is just my opinion, I am sure many disagree with me.



I have recently been making some headway in convincing my significant other to get her ccw permit and start keeping a gun with her. I plan on letting her shoot every handgun I own, autos and revolvers, (starting with .38 wadcutters in my 686) and go from there as to what she would like to train with and carry. I have also recently bought a J frame (for myself, not her. Secretly though, I wanted her to be able to shoot one to practice/try it out in a holster, purse, etc). While researching, reading reviews, etc on different J frames/lcrs, I have come across the same thing over and over again that has irked me to the point that I feel the need to post about it.





"J Frames are not for women," "J frames are a terrible choice for your wife," etc...





I am sure all of us know the reasons given for this. More recoil, light gun, heavy trigger pull sums it up for the most part. The part that all of these reviewers and armchair commandos are not acknowledging is that many (probably the vast majority) of women, including my girlfriend, have no interest in guns, shooting, or trying to dress around a gun for concealment. If it is not comfortable, they absolutely will not carry it. Also, there is little interest from many women in extensive training for malfunctions, etc that should be done with an autoloader. My girlfriend will most likely need the simplest thing possible. No slide to rack, no magazine to insert, no safety to disengage, and definitely not a light trigger pull. Lets face it, many of us do not practice as much as we would like. Why in the world would I expect someone not interested in firearms to do so?! If she has to defend herself, it will be at very close range. She will not be running into combat with an active shooter or firing at someone any farther than say, 10 feet away, and that's probably being generous. If I can not get her point-shooting good enough at that distance with a J frame, there is something wrong with me as her teacher, not with the gun. You can always put crimson trace grips on the gun to help too. Yes, let her start with something that is easy to shoot first and gradually let her try the J frame, but there is nothing wrong with a woman carrying a J frame. I would much rather my girlfriend carry a revolver than an automatic, and I know that she will only carry the smallest, lightest thing I can get her. Why should I try to get her to carry something else that is going to end up left at home or in the car? I shouldn't. If she ends up choosing to carry a revolver (which she probably will for simplicity), I feel much better with her having 5 low recoil 148gr wadcutters in an air-weight on her than 7 rounds in an all steel L frame in the car.


This is a great post, and you bring up a lot of excellent points... I have many EDC firearms that I choose from, but the one that gets the most love is my S&W 642 Airweight. When I first bought it and took it out to the range, I thought, what a miserable gun to shoot! With the factory grips, it was absolutely painful! So, I put on a set of Hogue grips, had a gunsmith do a trigger job for me, and now I absolutely LOVE it! You might try going this route when choosing an EDC for your girlfriend...it is SUPER light, easy to carry, and you can be a little more secure that she wonít have to worry about malfunctions, or clearing it if sheís in a bad situation. My wife, and my 12 year old daughter both shoot my 642 very well, and you might want to give it a try! Hope this helps!


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Old 07-05-2018, 11:57 AM
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My wife took her CHL test with a Sig p232. She’s carried a 60, 36 and a 637. Each one she liked better because they got lighter.
Due to hand surgery, recoil became a problem for her. She now carries a 651. I think that’s the model number. It disappeared in her purse and the only time I see it is when it needs to be cleaned. It’s a j frame 7 shot 22 Magnum. Probably not my first choice but it works for her.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:11 PM
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You would not want to put one dollar on a match against my wife and her M49. Just saying.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:46 PM
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Women (and men) will carry what they're comfortable shooting and carrying.
My Lady now carries the Shield 380 EZ in her purse. Being a retired LEO, she is no stranger to guns, and can and will shoot anything, and shoot it well. Recoil and noise isn't an issue she just shoots the EZ better then anything else in the safe and that selection runs from the lightweight Ti revolvers to 10mm semis all of which she shoots and shoots well.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:54 PM
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I agree with the OP. I started my wife with a 4” 357 shooting 38 special ammo. When she got comfortable with that we moved to the J-Frame. She handles a 442 well. For a hour of range time it is too light so she has been shooting my 2” 7 shot Taurus. Heavy gun, more fun. Now, if I could only get her to carry. Not happening. Oh well, I always have Two so, I can hand one off. Hope when I’m not there she doesn’t learn the hard way.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:54 PM
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I'm a guy, but frankly I think a lot of what is written about gun selection for, and by, women is sexist and wrong.

First the idea that women can't rack a slide. I believe all three of my grand daughters, my wife (over 70), our daughter-in-law, and even our DIL's mom who is over 80 could rack a slide.

The only one who can't is my sister in law. But it's not because she is weak, it's because she has a deformed hand with no fingers.

I believe any healthy woman can learn to rack a slide, and if not, then she should start doing some hand strength exercises and soon she will be able to.

On the recoil subject. Most men have trouble with the triggers on J frames and need a lot of practice to become proficient.

And many men carry J frames because they aren't willing to put up with dressing around (and lugging around) a big gun.

I'm in this category.

On the other side, women who are interested in becoming proficient with guns can learn to shoot a J frame just as well as men can.

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Old 07-05-2018, 12:55 PM
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I don't know who you are talking to. Lots of cops & others carry them themselves & arm their SOs with just that sort of gun.
I'd suggest a DAO J frame. There are lots of choices in these popular guns... because they are popular guns! I'd consider 32s & 38s. I wouldn't care if it's rated for magnums... I'd not go above +P 38s. A 3" is more shootable if the weight isn't an issue.
My 3" 36-1 is a great shooter... though I think a concealed hammer gun would be better. I found the 3" was not an impediment to concealment in a proper holster.
A J frame 22 is a great range gun & trainer.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:10 PM
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Lightweight j frames are the most difficult handguns to learn to shoot well.

That said, a professional trigger job (not a DIYS job) is the first step in making them manageable.

The second step is adding a Tyler t grip to factory magnas. Other aftermarket grips help too, but add bulk that may interfere with concealability.

Stay away from laser grips: they add an additional gizmo that complicates operating the gun, they slow you down in sd settings and they teach the shooter bad shooting habits: to look at the wrong thing. Remember: front sight, front sight, front sight!!

The third step is using 148 gr wadcutter ammo exclusively: it’s great sd ammo and encourages practice and skill development. Resist the silly urge to stoke your j frame with +p ammo, boutique stuff or expanding bullets. It goes without saying that 357 mag in a lightweight j frame is to be avoided at all costs.

Fourth: select a handgun that can be fired single action as well as double action. While sd shooting is likely a double action task, learning to shoot with the option of single action shooting makes learning sighting and trigger control much easier and quicker.

Fifth, don’t try to teach a beginner to point shoot. Teach them to see the sights. Always.

Finally, let her pick her own gun and GET SOMEONE ELSE to do the shooting instruction. She’s much more likely to carry a gun she’s picked than what you pick for her. Having someone else do the instruction will improve your relationship and is much more likely to be retained.

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Old 07-05-2018, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I'm a guy, but frankly I think a lot of what is written about gun selection for, and by, women is sexist and wrong.

First the idea that women can't rack a slide. I believe all three of my grand daughters, my wife (over 70), our daughter-in-law, and even our DIL's mom who is over 80 could rack a slide.

The only one who can't is my sister in law. But it's not because she is weak, it's because she has a deformed hand with no fingers.

I believe any healthy woman can learn to rack a slide, and if not, then she should start doing some hand strength exercises and soon she will be able to.

On the recoil subject. Most men have trouble with the triggers on J frames and need a lot of practice to become proficient.

And many men carry J frames because they aren't willing to put up with dressing around (and lugging around) a big gun.

I'm in this category.

On the other side, women who are interested in becoming proficient with guns can learn to shoot a J frame just as well as men can.
I am not saying that women are not able to rack a slide and shoot well with an automatic. I am sure 99% of women can rack a slide and have the ability to deal with all the moving parts if they decide that they want to. I am saying that the majority of them in my experience (my girlfriend included) are not interested in training enough to be proficient with racking a slide and dealing with a separate magazine and a safety (and yes, if you carry an automatic you should be training in this, however basic it may seem.) A revolver is just simpler for the operator. There are of course exceptions. There are many women who love guns! but that's not what this post is about. I am talking about women who do not have an interest in shooting. I am not trying to be sexist. In my personal experience, more men like guns than do women. More men are interested in practicing with guns than are women. More men are willing to carry a gun than are women. Your personal experience may be different.
The trigger issue is an issue, but not at point-blank range, and not at 5-10 feet with a little bit of practice. We are not talking about bullseye shooting here, just center of mass.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper Clip View Post
I am not saying that women are not able to rack a slide and shoot well with an automatic. I am sure 99% of women can rack a slide and have the ability to deal with all the moving parts if they decide that they want to. I am saying that the majority of them in my experience (my girlfriend included) are not interested in training enough to be proficient with racking a slide and dealing with a separate magazine and a safety (and yes, if you carry an automatic you should be training in this, however basic it may seem.) A revolver is just simpler for the operator. There are of course exceptions. There are many women who love guns! but that's not what this post is about. I am talking about women who do not have an interest in shooting. I am not trying to be sexist. In my personal experience, more men like guns than do women. More men are interested in practicing with guns than are women. More men are willing to carry a gun than are women. Your personal experience may be different.
The trigger issue is an issue, but not at point-blank range, and not at 5-10 feet with a little bit of practice. We are not talking about bullseye shooting here, just center of mass.
My post wasn't met as a criticism of you.

I've read the "women can't rack the slide" comment from other Internet posters so often, the I just decide to rant on the subject.

No insult intended.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
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My post wasn't met as a criticism of you.

I've read the "women can't rack the slide" comment from other Internet posters so often, the I just decide to rant on the subject.

No insult intended.
I took your post in the wrong way. I thought that you were saying that I was being sexist in my post. My apologies!!
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:31 PM
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The American Rifleman did a story this past year about this very subject and women when given a choice overall didn't choose a j frame. I carry and like my air weight but my wife hates it on the other hand she doesn't like an auto either her favorite is a k frame 3 inch ,she shoots pretty good but she isn't a gun person .i say give women a choice just like us guys they are individuals and each makes different choices but kudos to you for at least giving the subject serious thought.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:41 PM
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The beauty of a .38 J Frame is you can pick everything from standard pressure stuff under 100 grains to 158gr +P wadcutters that get your attention out of an alloy framed gun.

If someone (regardless of gender) can't handle something like the Hornady 90gr pink tip out of a J frame, they're not going to do any better with a small .380 or 9mm. You're getting into Beretta tip barrel or .22 revolver territory at that point. Better than nothing by far. Remember the thread about the gal who stopped her daughter's stalker with a Walter .22? I doubt she loses sleep wondering if she should upgrade to a bigger gun. It did its job.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:18 PM
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I HIGHLY recommend anyone shopping for their wife check out a .327. It's the perfect round for someone who hasn't shot much, because it uses any .32 variant of ammo (even the semi-rimmed.32 ACP supposedly). I'd start her off with .32 Long (Fiocci is fairly cheap and available if you order online), they try .32 H&R, then full tilt .327 Mag if she does well with that. If all else fails you could even fall back to .32 Short for training. The .327 round is a monster. Anyone at the business end of a 327 is going to rethink their life choices if just from the blast and noise. That said, it's far more manageable to the shooter than .357 and feels more like shooting .38 SPL in an airweight.

For carry, I'd get a LCR327 rather than a SP101 - I have the LCR and love it. I love SP101s also, but I think the LCR327 is the perfect weight for folks who want an easy and unobtrusive gun to carry.

I own several S&W revolvers, but IMO the LCR327 is the perfect gun for this situation. It's light so she can easily transition the gun from her purse to her waistband if she is in a bad situation and thinks the gun might be needed. After its broken in, the trigger pull is very light (much lighter than a J frame) and the grip is well designed to absorb some recoil. And like I said, it's the most ammo flexible gun I have ever seen.

The only downside is they are spendy - I paid $500 at my LGS; they are $515+transfer fee at Buds. Not cheap, but that is one gun I don't think I'll ever sell. In 20 years when my arthritis is in full bloom, I have a feeling that LCR327 will be my primary CCW.

Finally, when is Smith going to reintroduce the 632!!!!
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:27 PM
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I HIGHLY recommend anyone shopping for their wife check out a .327. It's the perfect round for someone who hasn't shot much, because it uses any .32 variant of ammo (even the semi-rimmed.32 ACP supposedly). I'd start her off with .32 Long (Fiocci is fairly cheap and available if you order online), they try .32 H&R, then full tilt .327 Mag if she does well with that. If all else fails you could even fall back to .32 Short for training. The .327 round is a monster. Anyone at the business end of a 327 is going to rethink their life choices if just from the blast and noise. That said, it's far more manageable to the shooter than .357 and feels more like shooting .38 SPL in an airweight.

For carry, I'd get a LCR327 rather than a SP101 - I have the LCR and love it. I love SP101s also, but I think the LCR327 is the perfect weight for folks who want an easy and unobtrusive gun to carry.

I own several S&W revolvers, but IMO the LCR327 is the perfect gun for this situation. It's light so she can easily transition the gun from her purse to her waistband if she is in a bad situation and thinks the gun might be needed. After its broken in, the trigger pull is very light (much lighter than a J frame) and the grip is well designed to absorb some recoil. And like I said, it's the most ammo flexible gun I have ever seen.

The only downside is they are spendy - I paid $500 at my LGS; they are $515+transfer fee at Buds. Not cheap, but that is one gun I don't think I'll ever sell. In 20 years when my arthritis is in full bloom, I have a feeling that LCR327 will be my primary CCW.

Finally, when is Smith going to reintroduce the 632!!!!
I have been interested in the LCR .327 for the exact reason you say here. I am just worried that the ammo will all be gone a few years from now. From my perspective, the .327 Mag does not seem to have caught on as much as Ruger would have liked when they chambered the LCR for it. It is an interesting round, however and I would love to shoot one one day.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:29 PM
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You are so right. Those new ones weigh nothing and will kick the mess out of you. My wife has one loaded with wadcutters which is doable. She also has a Terrier made in 1970. . .38S&W which I call the 38 Short. Handles about like a 22. That's the perfect handgun for backyard snakes and pests. Wish they still made them.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:20 PM
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I've read a few posts which share my opinions on the matter (Posts 9, 11, 12, and others). I'm concerned about the initial post with "convincing" someone to get a CCW. For many people, male or female, getting a CCW is a big/major decision right there.

At this point, it may be enough to stop right there.

Depending on the state or locale, it may or may not be necessary to commit to a specific make/model/caliber. Choosing a specific carry-gun just adds to a person's time-money-stress. If a commitment to a specific handgun doesn't need to be selected up-front, then don't go there, yet.

If a specific handgun does need to be selected, perhaps just initially use something to pass any required qualification course. Some locales may have minimum caliber requirements, too.

The situation in this thread seems to be different from a female significant other who says, "I'm interested in guns, too. Help me get my CCW as it's something I decided I want. Secondly, I'm open to revolvers, semiautos, or both (some folks will already want a specific type and brand), and want to be as proficient as possible with this huge commitment, responsibility, and lifestyle change."

I'm wondering if the female is just saying yes to getting the CCW to avoid or end the discussion.
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Old 07-05-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Paper Clip View Post
I have been interested in the LCR .327 for the exact reason you say here. I am just worried that the ammo will all be gone a few years from now. From my perspective, the .327 Mag does not seem to have caught on as much as Ruger would have liked when they chambered the LCR for it. It is an interesting round, however and I would love to shoot one one day.
I have an LCR 327 and it's my most frequently carried gun.

I like the fact it's a 6 shooter. I have been carrying 327 Federal Hydra shok in it. That's a fairly low recoil round a little above 38 Special +P.

An LCR 327 might be a good choice for your girlfriend -- at least it's worth showing her one at a gun shop. And finding one to test fire at a range -- although that might be hard to find.

The trigger is a little easier that a typical J frame.

And you can load it with 32 S&W Long or 32 H&R Magnum and have a low recoil load.

Then as she gets more confidence, she can move up to the various 327 Federal SD loads -- or just stick with 32 Mag.

I think Ruger is doing well with 327 Federal and don't think there will be a problem with ammo companies abandoning the round any time soon.

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Old 07-06-2018, 12:45 AM
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I'm a woman with a CCW - I carry a 60 Pro or 640 Pro AIWB every time I leave the house. The few times my wardrobe won't allow for on body carry, I purse carry.

As a long time revolver shooter, carrying J frames was a simple choice. I shoot pistols also and racking the slide is not a problem. I obviously can't speak for your significant others, but for me, I love the simplicity of the revolver. The long, hard trigger pull is not an issue - I consider it an added safety feature.

In my opinion, a person (man or woman) should practice enough with their carry gun to become & stay proficient with it. Not just at 10 feet, but at 30 feet & beyond. To me, that takes the light weight guns out of consideration. My 640 Pro is probably as light as I would want to shoot. The extra 6 - 8 ounces on my belt are not noticeable, but you can bet I would notice the lack of those same ounces when on the range.

Starting a new shooter, whether man or woman, on a 617 or 686 is a great idea. Once they have the basics down, they should be encouraged to try as many makes and models as possible (yes that includes semi-autos). Somewhere along the line, I would have them try one of the light weight guns, so they know what they would be dealing with if they decide to carry one.

A woman should always chose her own carry gun. She needs to be able to envision how it will fit into her wardrobe and lifestyle.

Just my two cents....
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Old 07-06-2018, 07:37 AM
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I never really understood "women's" gun. Aside from possibly smaller hands, there really shouldn't be much difference. And some guys have small hands as well, so...

The first revolver I handed my wife, who has smaller hands than me, was a Ruger SP101 3". At 15 yards, she could fill your hand with 5 rounds, DA. SA wasn't much of an option, due to lack of strength, and I might argue technique, to cock the hammer. In hindsight, I should/need to reintroduce her to revolvers. I'm not a fan of the Shield she has. More importantly, I don't believe she's that comfortable with it.

My niece, who was in the police academy at the time, is 5 foot nothing, 100 and nothing. She was shooting through various guns I'd laid out for her. When she got to my full size 1911, it was love at first shot. Sadly, her department didn't feel the same ; )
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Old 07-06-2018, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by L-2 View Post
I've read a few posts which share my opinions on the matter (Posts 9, 11, 12, and others). I'm concerned about the initial post with "convincing" someone to get a CCW. For many people, male or female, getting a CCW is a big/major decision right there.

At this point, it may be enough to stop right there.

Depending on the state or locale, it may or may not be necessary to commit to a specific make/model/caliber. Choosing a specific carry-gun just adds to a person's time-money-stress. If a commitment to a specific handgun doesn't need to be selected up-front, then don't go there, yet.

If a specific handgun does need to be selected, perhaps just initially use something to pass any required qualification course. Some locales may have minimum caliber requirements, too.

The situation in this thread seems to be different from a female significant other who says, "I'm interested in guns, too. Help me get my CCW as it's something I decided I want. Secondly, I'm open to revolvers, semiautos, or both (some folks will already want a specific type and brand), and want to be as proficient as possible with this huge commitment, responsibility, and lifestyle change."

I'm wondering if the female is just saying yes to getting the CCW to avoid or end the discussion.


My only response to this comment is this: I am by no means forcing my girlfriend to carry a gun. I too believe that doing that is wrong. However, I do tell her that I think she should think about it. Why? Because I love her, and it is important to me that she have some sort of protection at all times. Where we live and spend much of our time, the police response time is somewhere around 30-45 minutes. There is also a new neighbor who has made it clear that he may be a danger. That is all of the detail I will go into on that.

I donít think I put enough emphasis on the fact that she is going to be choosing her carry gun. She is going to shoot ALL of my guns, autos and revolvers, big and tiny. Whatever gun she decides she wants. I will pay for it. If she wants to switch later, I will pay for that one too. I am not trying to force her into a J frame, but I donít see anything wrong with a woman carrying a J frame, especially a woman who WANTS protection, but is not interested in learning the details of operating an auto. The original post was more in response to the online reviews and articles that say that women should never carry a j frame. I am not saying that I am forcing my girlfriend to carry one, I just donít think that it should be discouraged any more than any other gun.
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:22 AM
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My wife is 4' 9" and weighs around 100 lbs, so you know that she is small and small framed. But after trying out various semi auto pistols on her, I (and she) found that a 3" barrel model 60 shooting 38 Special +P rounds is perfect for her. A revolver doesn't care if you limp wrist and she has no problems opening the cylinder or loading new rounds in the cylinder and she hits the target with it in single or double action at 7 yards. I tried various 9 MM pistols and she had problems racking the slide and the only semi auto pistol I have that she shoots halfway decently without having extraction problems from limp wristing is an old Husqvarna m/1907, which is a license built version of the FN M1903 that was modified to shoot .380 ACP by installing a bushing in the chamber. I don't consider the .380 ACP to be a real good home defense round and that gun wasn't originally set up for that cartridge, but rather the 9 MM Browning Long and you sometimes get some failures to eject with .380 ACP. With the model 60, she knows how to load it and shoot it so for her it is a much better choice for the house for self defense.
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Old 07-06-2018, 11:57 AM
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The "limp wrist" thing is a very important consideration. When my grandkids were small (around 5 years old), I would let them shoot my Glock out behind their house. Never had to worry about "safety" after the first shot was fired because the gun was sure not going to fire again. That's a big safety feature when it comes to semi-autos. . .they all become single shots.
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:19 PM
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The best way to help a woman who is a new shooter and considering ccw is to find a range that rents guns. Have her try out several then pick what works for her. If that’s not an option then she will have to try out what you have on hand and go from there. When we would have a lady cop going into an undercover assignment we would provide her w/a J frame, and training b/c the J was much different than the issued 4” K frame. Most had a hard time qualifying w/the J and had to try more than once. I only carried a J as a back-up to my K frame service gun and never as a primary weapon while on the job. A J frame in retirement is different.
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:54 PM
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There is a huge chasm between shooting/being a "shooter" and armed personal defense. A lot of gun-centric folks talk about new shooters or the sport of shooting, but what most of these individuals practice and promote has very little in common with what is actually needed for self-defense. Add in the majority of instructors are/were competitive shooters or active/former military/law enforcement who view everything through that prism, it's easy to see why there is a disconnect. The J-frame is a really bad choice for many things, but civilian personal defense is definitely not one of them.
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Old 07-06-2018, 08:56 PM
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I have observed little difference between men and women when it comes to carrying a firearm. We all have our differences as well as preferences, and that should determine what is carried.
What I have noticed is that it seems fewer women carry a firearm. I have met many women that have been turned off by small light handguns that are packing a whollop to the wrist. Heck, I do not enjoy that either. If a man or woman carries, IMHO they should be proficient with their carry piece and well versed in firearm safety. If they are not, it is unlikely a firearm will provide much protection, and could actually become somewhat of a hazard. That takes more than one or two trips to the range. So, why make it a painful process? Get something that is comfortable to use and get good with. My wife tried a bunch and has a preference for a K-frame. She does not like my J-frames (too small), nor does she have any desire to carry a shorty 1911 (too big), but the K-frames "fit" (just right). .38 Spl. is her choice of caliber - she worked up from .22 LR. The whole ordeal is not an overnight process, and if things are forced, it makes it a unwelcome ordeal that never really works.
In my opinion it is not wise to 'convince' someone to carry. Simply point out that it is their right to do so (in many places), and if they are interested, they will pursue the issue. Making your own informed decisions about what and how to carry also goes quite a long way in the process of "making it work". None of us seem to like to be told what is best for us on this topic, do we?
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Old 07-06-2018, 09:11 PM
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Seems to me lotsa men want their wife/girlfriend to carry a gun much more than the wife/girlfriend wants to carry a gun.

If she shoots, takes a class and gets her carry permit just for you there's nothing gained except someone now carries a gun who doesn't want to and won't or can't or has no intention of using it.

I would no more suggest a type or style or caliber of gun for my wife than I would tell her what bra to buy. It's a pretty personal decision.
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Old 07-07-2018, 04:01 PM
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My wife learned to shoot using a Colt's Police Positive, she was more than capable enough at 7 yards. She has no issue shooting a steel J or K frame in .38 Special. She has never been comfortable with semi-autos of any kind.
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Old 07-07-2018, 04:25 PM
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I have a 431PD which chambers 32 long and 32 H@R mags. Wife really likes to shoot 32 longs. Very manageable for her. I won't however let her have it! Yes ...I know....I'm still not gonna part with it.....She will be getting a Charter Arms of her own soon chambered in 32 H@R mag so she can shoot the 32 long ammo.. I have 3 other Charter revolvers and i like them a lot....Yes i know - i know.....She still ain't gettin the 431PD so get over it! Thats what i told her too.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:00 PM
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J frames for ladies are fine but in my observation an airweight is not. And all steel j frame with standard target wadcutters and practice will work. Just because you can pull a trigger and hang on to the thing does NOT make it a good defense weapon. The fact is some skill and experience is needed to be proficient with a J frame revolver and even MORE SO with the airweight designs. The idea is to HIT what your aiming at and not to scare em to death with a loud bang. Yes there are exceptions and many women have experience and can shoot them but the majority DON'T and it makes a very poor choice until such time they do possess the skills. Hell that even goes for many guys.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hittman77 View Post
Seems to me lotsa men want their wife/girlfriend to carry a gun much more than the wife/girlfriend wants to carry a gun.
My wife didn't see the point until she started to meet buyers for either of her side businesses. While they tended to be nice middle-aged women like her, some were not, and being armed became SOP.

I let her shoot anything she wanted of mine and a few shootin' buddies and pick for herself. She ended up with a 1911 and a safety-equipped Shield. Grip and having a manual safety played into both choices. She couldn't care less about wheelguns so I'm trying to fix that with our progeny
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:52 PM
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I don't believe in babying women, seen enough of them at their best and worst to have a good idea of what they're capable of, plus women are all about equality these days, so I wouldn't presume to tell them what to carry any more than I would a man. (i.e. Not at all.)

So when my very own mother asked for my advice on a firearm, I asked first what she wanted... She was looking for a sort of all-purpose firearm which could be used for EDC, Home Defense, powerful enough to drop a Black Bear if necessary, and not too expensive. Based on her criteria, I suggested a Taurus 605 in .357 Magnum, showed her it, then on her birthday shortly afterwards, my brother and I took her to a gunshop to buy her it as a gift. She used to carry a Taurus TCP-738 in .380 ACP, so if she could handle .380 ACP out of a 12oz pocket pistol, (which I know for a fact that she's shot before with no trouble) then I have no doubt that she'd be able to handle .38 Special or even .357 Magnum out of a 24oz Revolver.

Personally, I feel that any man who truly cares for the wellbeing of a woman should be more concerned for her ability to adequately defend herself than her shooting comfort.
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:57 PM
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A J-Frame should not be given to a brand new shooter, regardless of gender. You have to work your way down to a J-Frame, especially an Airweight.

I also don't understand giving women the smallest gun possible that will fit in their purse. I disagree with this for so many reasons.

A carry gun should be a gun you train with A LOT. Who wants to train and shoot hundreds of rounds with a J Frame or a Glock compact?

A K-Frame, a Glock 19 or a Sig P228 are all much better options to start a female shooter on.
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Old 07-07-2018, 09:38 PM
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Iím with the OP on this one. A lot of people, not just women, are not going to go all in and change their lifestyle to accommodate carrying a gun. Just not gonna happen.

Sometimes the best you can hope for is to get them to the range once a year or so to blow out the cobwebs. Should they just be unarmed instead? Would the Mom who face-shot the guy who jumped in the driverís seat and took off with her kids have been better off with a tactical gun at home instead of the one she had?

We are all into guns here. Most people arenít. They have the right to be protected, too. A 442 full of wadcutters is just fine.
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:12 PM
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My saga in the world of handguns.....Probably not the usual female tale.

I believe the first handgun I ever shot was a Walter P38, due to the time frame, circumstances and pictures. Then on to revolvers. My then hubby
brought back 3 revolvers when he was stationed in Germany. 2 were 22's, kind unknown, the other was a 4" S&W .357. I had it for awhile but had to surrender it to LE in the midst of a messy divorce.

Then gunless for a few years, sometimes having the chance to "shoot cans" with friends. One of those happened to be a 41mag.
Late hubby had several handguns, I remember shooting a Ruger Mark I ,
a S&W 39, and a Ruger Blackhawk .357. ( still have the Blackhawk.)
When his health started going downhill I decided it has time for me to buy a gun for me. 1st was a Ladysmith 65, then a Model 66 2 1/2 in.
By then I was hooked.

Back to the 41mag, I just knew it had to be a S&W, I now own 2 Model 57s, and yes I shoot them. Along with 45acp, and 45 LC.

J frames? I own 1, a M36. Had to put bigger grips on it. I have long fingers. It is my nightstand gun or with me if traveling in the Mini.

I have tried several of the newer J frames including the 642.
No love for any of them. I can shoot my 66 in single action quicker and maintain accurarcy than I can shoot any J frame DOA. But it is not the best for me for CC. I don't often on-body carry, if I do it is the 36.

The Ruger 327 does look interesting to me, appears to have a slightly larger grip than the J frames and it is also available in SA/DA.

My point is, every woman is different. Not many shoot recreationaly, I do. Does the woman want to carry? Or just be able to defend herself at home? You guys need to know what she wants and what she is willing to do. And most of all, SHE MAKES THE FINAL DECISION ON THE ON THE GUN!

ps. I can't shoot a semi-auto worth a dang!
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Old 07-08-2018, 02:51 PM
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If a woman has the same problems I have with racking the slides of a great many autopistols, it's best to let her tell you what she likes. It'll probably turn out better in the long run.
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Old 07-08-2018, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper Clip View Post
My only response to this comment is this: I am by no means forcing my girlfriend to carry a gun. I too believe that doing that is wrong. However, I do tell her that I think she should think about it. Why? Because I love her, and it is important to me that she have some sort of protection at all times. Where we live and spend much of our time, the police response time is somewhere around 30-45 minutes. There is also a new neighbor who has made it clear that he may be a danger. That is all of the detail I will go into on that.

I don’t think I put enough emphasis on the fact that she is going to be choosing her carry gun. She is going to shoot ALL of my guns, autos and revolvers, big and tiny. Whatever gun she decides she wants. I will pay for it. If she wants to switch later, I will pay for that one too. I am not trying to force her into a J frame, but I don’t see anything wrong with a woman carrying a J frame, especially a woman who WANTS protection, but is not interested in learning the details of operating an auto. The original post was more in response to the online reviews and articles that say that women should never carry a j frame. I am not saying that I am forcing my girlfriend to carry one, I just don’t think that it should be discouraged any more than any other gun.
Might want to consider getting her some pepper spray and then stop pushing the CC permit and just get her doing some target practice.....go slow. I would look at the M60 pro with the 3 inch barrel and some mouse fart 38 wad-cutters. Get her doing single action and having fun with it. Don't talk tactical training...just talk fun target shooting. {pepper spray ...go slow} Buy the 60 pro for yourself and leave it stock. If she eventually likes it , you can gift it . Take all the pressure off this. {it will get you nowhere but getting her pissed off and digging in her heels} She is more likely to use the pepper spray than to use a gun anyway. The gun takes a lot more conviction.

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Old 07-08-2018, 04:47 PM
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My wife decided to get a concealed carry permit, so I signed up and took the courses with her to keep her company. She wanted a 637-2 (my Hi-Power and 1911 Commander were too bulky for her taste, and she couldn't rack the slides), so we got one, and I liked it so much I got another for myself. Put titanium cylinders in both for weight reduction, and I converted mine to 9mm. She likes that enough to do hers too. We don't see anything wrong with the light weight 1-7/8" j-frames. Should we rethink it? We were expecting severe recoil, but it isn't bad at all.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:57 PM
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3rdgeargrndrr 3rdgeargrndrr is offline
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Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
My wife decided to get a concealed carry permit, so I signed up and took the courses with her to keep her company. She wanted a 637-2 (my Hi-Power and 1911 Commander were too bulky for her taste, and she couldn't rack the slides), so we got one, and I liked it so much I got another for myself. We were expecting severe recoil, but it isn't bad at all.
carry what you can shoot accuratley under stress.
If you want to go back to the browning design,
Have you checked out the fun size 1911’s?
sig P938/238 or the kimber micro/micro 9

My oldest kid has moved on to 380 from 38spl.

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Old 07-10-2018, 12:20 PM
The Maxx The Maxx is offline
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One more thought to consider in favor of a revolver.

Women more than men are targeted to be subdued for the purpose of rape, kidnapping, etc.

If the target has someone on top of her and she sticks a gun in his side, it doesn't take much for the pistol slide to be pushed out of battery and the gun unable to fire. Training can also minimize this possibility.

The revolver has no issue with this situation, and with the muzzle jammed hard into the attackers body the gasses propelling the bullet are also directed into the wound channel increasing the damage. A revolver with a shrouded hammer is better able to be fired from inside a purse or pocket with fewer moving parts to snag, and no issues of slide interference.

I would classify this as a secondary consideration. Finding a gun that someone is comfortable with that they like to practice with and carry is primary.
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Old 07-10-2018, 03:02 PM
Weimar Weimar is offline
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I was going to write profound statements of letting your loved one pick out their own firearm, try a large number instead of some loving but misguided husband picking out what THEY thought was best for them, but its been covered above!

I do think its all about individuals, as I know many women and men who can't rack a slide and others who are petite who sure as heck can! All depends on the person and training.
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