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Old 07-09-2018, 08:42 PM
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Default Question about Revolvers Chambered for .44 Special

Does a revolver chambered for .44 Special, like a Model 24, offer any advantage above a similar revolver chambered in .44 Magnum, like the Model 29, which can shoot both .44 Special and Magnum?

I am more of a .38/.357 guy but a 3" Model 24 with combats caught my eye. Got me thinking...what if I want to shoot .44 Magnum too? Should I just buy a 3" Model 29 and cover the bases? Is there any reason that the 24 would be better at launching .44 Special than the 29?

Why build a gun that large today that is not capable of handling both loads? is it just tradition, because revolvers chambered in .44 Special existed before the .44 Magnum load?



Ryan

Last edited by NCBeagle; 07-09-2018 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:46 PM
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I think it’s tradition if we’re talking N frames. Heck, even the 44mag L frame makes more sense than the .44spcl 696.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:50 PM
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Lighter weight.streamlined barrel. No red insert front sight.More of a classic revolver look in my opinion .
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:51 PM
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Yep, unless you downsize the frame and cylinder I see no advantage to a 44 special. Some will complain that shooting 44 SPL in a 44 mag makes it hard to load a 44 mag later. True, unless you clean it. But cleaning will never make a 44 spl revolver accept a 44 mag! So in my book the mag is better.

Now a 44 SPL with a correctly downsized frame might be neat, but I have no experience with one.

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Old 07-09-2018, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pondoro View Post
Yep, unless you downsize the frame and cylinder I see no advantage to a 44 special. Some will complain that shooting 44 SPL in a 44 mag makes it hard to load a 44 mag later. True, unless you clean it. But cleaning will never make a 44 spl revolver accept a 44 mag! So in my book the mag is better.

Now a 44 SPL with a correctly downsized frame might be neat, but I have no experience with one.
Ditto all that. A 5-shot L-frame sized 44 mag is just the ticket.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laketime View Post
Lighter weight.streamlined barrel. No red insert front sight.More of a classic revolver look in my opinion .
The mountain gun has that same tapered barrel and classic look.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:22 PM
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Ryan
If you’ve never owned a .44 Special, you won’t understand.
I have three Model 29 .44 Magnums and five .44 Specials.
Buy the 624, shoot it for a while and you’ll begin to understand what makes those of us who own them - own them!
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:22 PM
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No advantage.

If you want a traditional blued firearm, then go for the 3" M24 -- classic. I personally prefer the S&W M69 2.75" L Frame 5 shot 44 Mag. Here's a 4.25" (w/S&W X Frame 500 grips) and a 2.75" (w/S&W X Frame 500 grips modified to remove finger groves and round butt.



Better Pic of 2.75" w/Modifed S&W X Frame grips (shown with 460 Rowland conversion)


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Old 07-09-2018, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. F. View Post
Ryan
If you’ve never owned a .44 Special, you won’t understand.
I have three Model 29 .44 Magnums and five .44 Specials.
Buy the 624, shoot it for a while and you’ll begin to understand what makes those of us who own them - own them!
You nailed it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:55 PM
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Since I bought a 44 special I really don't care for the 38 or 357 much now. If I had the 44 mag I still would seldom ever shoot it with 44 mags. The 44 special IMO is the cats meow in handguns. The caliber is up to the job with a good punch yet it doesn't have the noise or recoil of the 44 mag. I am not in bear country so I don't need a 44 mag. A 44 special revolver can be bought for much less money than 44 mag. No mine isn't a S&W but a Charter Bull Dog that has yet to show any flaws in it.

44 special revolver is my main carry after many years carrying 38/357. I agree with the above that after shooting the 44 special you will have a fondness for it.

Bottom line is if you plan on shooting 44 mag as well as 44 special then by all means get the 44 magnum. I shot one 44 mag and no I didn't enjoy the loud boom or the recoil.

I have maybe four 38 special revolvers and five 357 revolvers yet I have shot many boxes of 38 special in all the guns buy maybe only a box or so of 357 magnums. The 357 is much like a 44 magnum in loudness and recoil. For a self defense gun the loudness and recoil doesn't fit the need for me. I wouldn't ever want to shoot a 357 or 44 magnum without hearing protection on. The 44 special isn't as loud as a 9mm.

Last edited by gman51; 07-09-2018 at 11:10 PM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. F. View Post
Ryan
If you’ve never owned a .44 Special, you won’t understand.
I have three Model 29 .44 Magnums and five .44 Specials.
Buy the 624, shoot it for a while and you’ll begin to understand what makes those of us who own them - own them!
Came here to post this....except that I have five .44 Specials and one .44 magnum.

An elegant weapon of a more civilized age.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:41 PM
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Ryan—give this a read:

10. SKEETER RESURRECTS THE 44 SPECIAL
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:28 AM
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I've wanted a .44 Special for many years. If I had the money and came across a Smith or Charter Arms, I be on it like ugly on a baboon's butt.

I don't live in bear or moose country. A .44 Special would be more than adequate for my handgun needs.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:41 AM
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I have a S&W M29-2, haven't shot it in many years.
I have 6 .44 Specials from a M696 to M 24 I shoot all the time.
From my 1923 44 Spl target to my M21-4 I just prefer less recoil now.
Maybe I still am living in the 20th Century....
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:11 AM
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Becase as indicated above, one can do 95% of what needs to be done with a Big Bore revolver with a .44 Special.

The .44 Special was my #1 cartridge back in the mid to later 1980s before going over to .41 Magnum. Had all six of the 24s/624s and a Charter Arms Bulldog. With the right powder and bullets it was no problem at all getting well beyond factory velocities of the time into what Buffalo Bore and several other manufacturers make today.

To me the slim barrel and short cylinder of the 24/624 Combat Special balances MUCH better than the Magnum versions...

Try it...you'll love it....Bob
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:19 AM
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I have several 44mags from different manufactures. I shoot mostly 44 specials in them. I want/need to get a 44 special.

Walt
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:58 AM
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The 44 special always needs a companion like his big brother.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:18 AM
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Since I don’t hunt, I have never felt the need for a .44 Mag ... but I love .44 Special, and have been looking for more! Could be the perfect cartridge.

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Old 07-10-2018, 08:14 AM
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I like the 44 Special, because it's different. Everybody and his brother has a 44 Magnum, but a 44 Special...well...that's special.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:40 AM
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I have a few,a 696, three 624’s, a1926 Wolf And Klar, a USFA single action,and a 24.
None of them are going anywhere, I like them all.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:28 AM
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Lets see I own a triple lock, Wolf & Klar 3rd model, 24-3 6 1/2 inch, 24-3 4 inch and a Lew Horton 24-3 3 inch yep I like .44 spls.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:22 AM
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If the world was to have only one 44 AMMO, please make it a 44 Special.
Having written that, I have only 44 Magnum handguns.
There are two topics here you shouldn't confuse: the ammo and the handgun that shoots it.


I'm always on the lookout for a early SAA in 44 special. They are lighter and handier than a corresponding 44 Mag of today.

I've been looking for 10 years without finding one that was nice and affordable. I think when you get to why on the 44 special, it is about weight. If you're not concerned about weight, the 44 special handgun offers nothing over the 44 mag handgun (opinion). The 44 special guns of today seem to be as heavy as the 44 mag guns.

44 Specials command a premium in both weapons and ammo. The Special ammo is more expensive and much harder to find than magnums.

I must add that I am a handloader. That changes everything.
I make my 44 mags do exactly what I want. I make mine just above a hot 44 special. I define that as 1050fps and up. I find 1200fps delightful.

Yes, I do try to turn my 44 mags into 44 specials. Real Magnums at 1400fps are too much for me.

The 44 mag handguns are much less expensive than the 44 Specials. Most folks who buy the 44 mag handgun shoot a cylinder and put it away. Without experience shooting big bore, the recoil is punishing and the sound is intense. Conversely, the 44 Special handguns get shot continually for enjoyment.
I think the 44 mag is the Best Buy of revolvers today. Like I said, most have had one cylinder fired and then put up for sale. I prefer buying the beautiful, strong 44 mag handgun cheap and then shooting soft 44 mag ammo that is real close to a 44 special.
I use 44 mag brass and so there is no cleaning the cylinder ring involved.

Of course, if a Colt New Frontier in 44 special came along, I'd jump in a flash. That and the triple lock are the real 44 special handguns to me.


Prescut

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Old 07-10-2018, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCBeagle View Post
Does a revolver chambered for .44 Special, like a Model 24, offer any advantage above a similar revolver chambered in .44 Magnum, like the Model 29, which can shoot both .44 Special and Magnum?
Someone already mentioned the cleaning issue, but in theory the shorter 44 special cylinder has a slight accuracy advantage potential over firing 44 specials in the longer 44 magnum cylinder. Not enough to matter for my intended uses, but the potential advantage is there.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:58 PM
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'Cause they're just plain fun to shoot.

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Old 07-11-2018, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pondoro View Post
Yep, unless you downsize the frame and cylinder I see no advantage to a 44 special. Some will complain that shooting 44 SPL in a 44 mag makes it hard to load a 44 mag later. True, unless you clean it. But cleaning will never make a 44 spl revolver accept a 44 mag! So in my book the mag is better.

Now a 44 SPL with a correctly downsized frame might be neat, but I have no experience with one.

Uh, a .44 special still a.44.

You can’t downsize the frame or cylinder, correctly or otherwise. A model 24 cylinder is already shorter than a magnum. That plus the tapered barrel make it lighter than a standard M-29 (excluding Mountain variants, scandium, etc.)

Why are there still .38s built on the same frame as .357s?
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:07 PM
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A lot of those .357s are made on frames that started with .38s (the K frame, in particular). I don't often carry revolvers, so my opinion will not be as valuable as some others. My reason for getting the guns that are chambered for the more powerful rounds is simply that if there is a shortage or other problem, I can use the lighter load in the gun that can shoot either.

That is a very different value from the goals expressed by several here, and their goals are valid. In my world, the .44 special would do all I ever need, and I admit I have little .44 magnum ammo. I just value the flexibility enough to make the magnum models more useful FOR ME.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug M. View Post
A lot of those .357s are made on frames that started with .38s (the K frame, in particular).

My question was rhetorical, but you are correct, and it’s the same with the N-frame revolvers. The frame size began life as a .44 Special in the Triple Lock.

Some earlier posts suggest that the Model 24 is built on an oversized frame designed for the .44 Magnum, when, in fact, it’s the exact opposite.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:32 PM
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I shoot .44 Mag and Special. But the trick to enjoying .44 Mag is to load your own. My favorite is 240 gr.bullet over 9 gr. of Unique which gives you a "tweener"...between a .44 Special load and start level of .44 Mag.
A nice round out of my 629 or Ruger SBH and also my new Model 69 when it comes back from SW.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:58 PM
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My first revolver was a 6" 586ND, my second was a 6.5" 29-2 S s/n.

After that, I started collecting 44mags.

Later in life, I got the bug for a 44Spl specific revolver, now I have 4.

I also have a lot of 357's, but they are my eco friendly revolvers - they feel like the 44's, but use less powder and lead.

44Spl is a hand loader's proposition. Ammo cost for the anemic as well as the high end is unreasonable.

I loaded my magnum cases to Spl velocities to avoid the carbon ring and keep the bullet further forward in the chamber, but once you get a Spl, it's a whole new world. Nothing is as smooth as a 44Spl N frame with a bullet @ 900fps. Truth be told, that's exactly what a 45Colt is - 250g @ 900fps.

Target friendly, good for SD and hunting, a 44Spl IS special.
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Old 07-12-2018, 12:05 AM
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The only advantage I know of shooting a SPL in a gun chambered for it is I have seen folks post chrono readings that show a SPL loses speed when shot from a MAG gun.

I think it all hinges on whether you reload. If you don't reload, get a 44 SPL. Factory 44 MAG loads are just ridiculous and not much fun to shoot unless you are a masochist. Precision One has a good price on 44 SPL practice ammo, and Underwood sells relatively inexpensive JHPs for it. There's no advantage to getting a magnum unless you hunt with it.

If you do reload, I think the one advantage to a magnum is you can reload light magnums that are still very comfortable to shoot in an N frame while being hotter than any recommended load for a 44 SPL. My current 44 MAG pet load is 9gr of Universal under a 180gr, which is perfectly manageable in an N frame, but much hotter than the 44 SPL which maxes out at 5.6gr on Universal. Now, you can work up an above max 44 SPL load, but many are not comfortable doing that.

That said, the carry ammo I use in my 3" M629 is Underwood 44 SPL, and I have to say I'd be fine with just a 44 SPL. In fact, the only reason I didn't buy one when I got my M629 is I wanted a 3" barrel and 3" M24/M624 have been getting spendy. I'll still pick one up if I find a SPL for the right price.

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Old 07-12-2018, 12:47 AM
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Bought a Ruger Redhawk 44 magnum some years back. Must have approx 1000 rounds through it. Since I bought my 3 S&W 44 specials the Redhawk sits in the safe. Enjoy shooting them much more than the 44 magnum. Frank
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:25 AM
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Its true that a 44 mag gun will fire 44 specials fine.
Versatility is a good thing.
Very small minus of fouling the 0.10 of mag chamber.
Very small minus of velocity and accuracy lose of special in mag chamber.
Some weight reduction in most 44 special guns.
44 special is the superior round for a defense gun mostly due to recoil recovery.
Shorter guns are better suited for defense
Longer guns for hunting targets etc.

Thee 44 special has proven to be very effective and has a following. Similar to the 41 mag, why have one of those? Same frame as a 44 mag, really no special rounds. Less commercial ammo choices. But, the 41 mag has a following because many educated shooters find that it fits their needs best.

I have a couple 44 specials. I could sell my 696 no dash for enough to buy a snub 69 or a 44 mag. Won't happen. Traditional one piece barrel, no lock and I would only use it for a carry gun. Same short barreled gun in 44 mag would go up and twist more and be harder to get back on target, why would I need magnums for it.

44 special is like my favorite caliber the 45 Colt. Big heavy bullets don't really need the speed. The magnum speed gets you a bit flatter trajectory, but, what kind of trajectory are we talking within the distance 99% can fire a 6" or less barreled gun? If Fired accurately to vitals not many things are going to notice a few hundred fps when a 240 to 260 grain bullet wacks it. Over a 100 yds, the 44 mag is a clear winner, but until you get to there I just don't see any real big advantage.

Yes, I have 3 44 mags. They set in a drawer. Nothing wrong with them, just don't ever chose them for anything I am going do.

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Old 07-12-2018, 08:14 AM
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dr. mordo said:"I think it all hinges on whether you reload. If you don't reload, get a 44 SPL. Factory 44 MAG loads are just ridiculous and not much fun to shoot unless you are a masochist."

I used to reload but for some reason it started to seem like a tedious chore instead of an enjoyable hobby so I quit. But even without reloading there are options.

I get most of the range ammo for my M69 from Georgia Arms. They sell a cowboy load that is smoky but duplicates 44 special velocities in a 44 magnum case for about 25 cents a round. They also have a load that drives a 240 grain FMJ to about 1000 fps for 27 cents a round. The second load nicely splits the difference between a 44 special and 44 magnum and is what I shoot most often in my M69. If you don't reload now but are thinking of starting all the GA arms 44 ammo I have bought came in Starline brass.

If I had to shoot nothing but full power magnums through my M69 I would sell it. Its fun for two or three cylinders but not more.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:12 AM
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My first 44 special was a Lipsey Blackhawk, a fun gun to shoot at the range or carry in the woods. I like the round so much I started trying to find a Rossi or Taurus revolver with a 3" barrel, and only found a few hammerless models. Then I came across a good deal on a 696 ND right about the time Ruger brought out their GP100 in 44 special. The 696 is a great gun, although it's a bit large for EDC, so I went back to trying to find a smaller 44 special. I was about to buy the Ruger when I came across a Taurus 445, 5 shot revolver, with a 2" barrel.

It's an earlier model, before the goofy lock and it's not ported (like many were). I have finally found a perfect sized 44 special to carry IWB. It rides in a Sticky holster and I can't even tell it's there. But I'm not getting rid of the 696. In fact, I'm looking for a nice 624 6" range toy at a good price. I had a moment of "Stupid" overtake me and I traded off my Blackhawk.
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Old 07-12-2018, 10:58 AM
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I like the 44 special and have 4 of em. I don't shoot them much since I got a 4" 69. Like fortyshooter, I shoot 9 grains of unique under my cast 429421 in it. It's a good woods/walking around load.

The 69's is the most accurate revolver I own and carries very well. It's even sweeter after I put the Wilson Combat spring kit in it. My 44 specials have been sitting in the safe for a while.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:23 AM
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First let me say that if I found a great deal on a model 24 I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

From a practical standpoint I'd say it depends on what you want it for and what fits your lifestyle. For a carry gun I very much like my new model 69. I haven't shot any light "special" loads in it yet but I thought it didn't seem to bad with factory magnums. I know light loads will be a pleasure.

My duty gun for many years was a 629 (6") and I carried Dept issued magnums and had to qualify with same. I shot many hot hand rolled magnums of wheel weights with gas checks in practice along with a bazillion hand rolled cast light loads that were accurate and just fun and pleasant to shoot. Sometimes with the right light I could see them heading to the target. Point being, in most cases I'd say get a magnum. You don't have to shoot hot loads, but you can. You can get used to shooting the magnums with practice if you want to to where you don't think anything of it.

However, I was looking at the Charter Arms Bulldog. I've never liked Charter Arms much but that's a compact 44 special that weighs less than 2/3s what my 69 weighs. Probably half of what my 3" 629 trail Boss weighs. Very tempting indeed.

Apples and oranges but I also have an old Ruger 44 semi-auto carbine, a Marlin lever trapper carbine and a 71/2" super blackhawk. I'm not as 44 saturated as some guys but I'm slowly working on it. A model 24 4 or 6" would be sweet.

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Old 07-13-2018, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. F. View Post
Ryan
If you’ve never owned a .44 Special, you won’t understand.
I have three Model 29 .44 Magnums and five .44 Specials.
Buy the 624, shoot it for a while and you’ll begin to understand what makes those of us who own them - own them!
Exactly. If you need to be explained with 8 by 10, color glossy photos, with the pictures and arrows and writing on the back ... you'll never understand.

you have to truly try one in comparison to the .44 Magnums.

Honestly, how many of you guys actually put full load 44 magnums through your .44 Magnum revolvers ? 10 rounds of .44 Magnum and I'm done. Can shoot the .44 Special, all day, and enjoy yourself.

I think the older .44 Specials are just classy and smooth, with all due respect to the early .44 Magnums that I admire very fondly.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:50 AM
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I've shot a whole lot of souped up magnums. Multi thousands of 265g home cast GCSWC over 22g W296/H110. I figure I was making ultra premium ammo since the early 80's. Buffalo Bore type stuff, because I could.

I actually bought a 44 that came with a box of 50 rounds missing 6.

That said, 44Spl pushing a 250g Keith @ 850 ~ 900fps is sublime in a purpose built 44Spl N frame.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:17 AM
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There is just something about the 44 spl. Some think it is inherently more accurate-I do.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by model3sw
Honestly, how many of you guys actually put full load 44 magnums through your .44 Magnum revolvers ?
That would be me. I wore out my 6" and had to send it back to the factory for a rebuild. Some people shoot them!
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
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However, I was looking at the Charter Arms Bulldog. I've never liked Charter Arms much but that's a compact 44 special that weighs less than 2/3s what my 69 weighs. Probably half of what my 3" 629 trail Boss weighs. Very tempting indeed.
I don't own a CA Bulldog, but I will if I find one for the right price! I've read up on them quite a bit, though.

It's important to note that even though they can't handle hot 44 SPL loads, they have significant recoil. It may not be magnum, but 44 SPL is a potent cartridge and shooting it from a 22 oz gun is no joke. You can google it or look for the threads of folks talking about the recoil from their 325 Night Guards, which is a similar power cartridge in a slightly heavier gun.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:00 PM
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I think it’s tradition if we’re talking N frames. Heck, even the 44mag L frame makes more sense than the .44spcl 696.
Don't knock that 696 unless you've tried one. I have one that was purchased as a standard model but went to the Performance Center for a MagnaPort and action job by the 1st owner, my club buddy.

I have to say, it is as sweet as could be. Something about the way it looks, handles and feels, plus the 5-shot cylinder makes it dead sexy.

Being I'm a lover of 5-shot Chief's and other J-frame Smiths, the 696 is the big brother you call for if the little brother is getting picked on !!







"My S&W is illiterate but a champion, none the less. It only knows one word, but can repeat it quickly and loudly, 5 times, with flawless accurracy" Sal
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Old Today, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fortyshooter View Post
the trick to enjoying .44 Mag is to load your own. My favorite is 240 gr.bullet over 9 gr. of Unique which gives you a "tweener"
What's the approximate pressure and muzzle velocity with that much Unique? I was going to suggest my favorite 44 load of 7.5 grains of Unique, which launches 240 grains of lead at around 950 fps depending on barrel length, i.e. the classic Skeeter Skelton load. That's a very comfortable yet hard-hitting load. There is often no need for magnum velocity (or the accompanying flash, bang and recoil) with that much lead except in certain situations. A 3-inch barrelled relatively lightweight N-frame and a load of around 1000 fps give-or-take with a heavy SWC are a perfect combo in my book.

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Old Today, 02:03 AM
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The .44 Specials have been making a renaissance return to the mainstream for the past few decades and even more so now. It seems everyone is catching on how "hot" the older .44 Hand Ejectors that are going FAST and the bargains to be had with post-war .44 Specials.

There are so many .44 Magnums out there that the .44 Special is now the novelty revolver.

Find a S prefix serial number .44 Magnum or .44 Special, no matter. You will pay BIG for the early .44 Magnums, and, while the gap is closing on the .44 Special prices ... there are still great bargains out there.

Scarce, sweet, smooth revolvers. To me, the .44 Special fits all I need to do, and, if I feel like loading .44 Ammo, all I need to load is .44 Russian Target loads instead of loading both S&W-R and Special. I load the light smokeless conversion for the Model 3s that works great in any of my Specials, too. How much powder do you need to put holes in a piece of paper, accurately, at up to 100 yards (at maximum) ?
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Old Today, 02:11 AM
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It all comes down to why you shoot. A long time ago, I was a charter member of the lunatic fringe searching for the ultimate in accuracy---and especially at longer than typical handgun range. This search for accuracy involved extensive use of a machine rest---which helped to discover and deal with facts.

Fact #1: The longer the throat, the less accuracy is to be had. (Accuracy here refers to group size.) Given the use of .44 Special ammo in a .44 Magnum (or .38 Special in a 357), one has added what---a tenth of in inch to the throat length. What that amounts to in percentages is more worrisome.

Fact #2: Given the use of (see above), one has also introduced a bullet scraper located about that same tenth of inch ahead of the case mouth. Now I've never ridden along with a bullet when it passes by that scraper, so I can't say for sure what happens to the bullet; but I figure something happens to it that wouldn't have happened otherwise---and I know it doesn't improve accuracy.

So---you pays your money and you takes your pick--shoot for accuracy or shoot to make noise.

The moral of this story is shoot what your gun was made to shoot----not what it will shoot.

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Old Today, 06:22 AM
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Most people don't worry much about wringing that last 1% of accuracy out of a handgun. But, I am sure what Ralph says is true.

The bench rest crowd does everything possible to make sure their cartridge fits the chamber perfectly and the bullet starts down the bore exactly centered. More important the uniform primer pockets

My thing is, I can think of very few instances, within most peoples reasonable handgun range, where another 2/300fps from a 240/250 gr bullet is going to make a bunch of difference.
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