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Old 07-15-2018, 10:42 AM
dhandler dhandler is offline
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Question Funny soot staining - barrel cant?

Picked up a great looking used 686-6+, but I don't think I did a good enough job giving it the once over (excitement got the best of me). When I got it out on the range I had a few light-strikes and a barely-breathe-on-it single action; those I should be able to fix by tightening up the tension on the hammer spring. However - I noticed that I had very uneven staining around the outside of the cylinder - although the soot on either side of the cone seemed pretty even. It's all on the left side just outside the cone and on the outside of the yoke, and I just noticed that the barrel is a little canted. (See pics linked below). Is the timing off, or is the cant responsible? It seemed to shoot very well otherwise. (These pics taken after 40 rounds through it)

This is my first "big" revolver - my little 642 was bought new and behaves very differently, obviously.

Any advice? Thanks in advance!

Pic1-Left Angle: LeftAngle.JPG - Google Drive

Pic2-Left Side: LeftSide.JPG - Google Drive

Pic3-Right Side: RightSide.JPG - Google Drive

Pic4-Cone: Cone.JPG - Google Drive

Pic5-Top: TopShot.JPG - Google Drive

Last edited by dhandler; 07-15-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:07 AM
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Barrel cant wouldn't normally make any difference. It could be that the cylinder gap is wider on the left side due to the back of the barrel being at an angle. I have yet to see one that is perfectly square from the factory, although some are better than others. Sometimes it seems like they set the gap with a hand file.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Toolguy View Post
Sometimes it seems like they set the gap with a hand file.

It "seems" like that because that is exactly the way it is done! Maybe not two-piece barrels, but always one-piece ones! Some fitters are more skilled with hand tools than others!
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Old 07-15-2018, 12:18 PM
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It "seems" like that because that is exactly the way it is done! Maybe not two-piece barrels, but always one-piece ones! Some fitters are more skilled with hand tools than others!
That's correct, at the S&W Revolver Armour Course we were taught to use a file when fitting the cylinder to get the correct gap between it and the forcing cone.
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:17 PM
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Barrel cant wouldn't normally make any difference. It could be that the cylinder gap is wider on the left side due to the back of the barrel being at an angle. I have yet to see one that is perfectly square from the factory, although some are better than others. Sometimes it seems like they set the gap with a hand file.
Thanks for the info... I didn't think the cant would impact that, either, but I decided to ask. Perhaps the gaps are like you say, but still within spec and I am just being overly particular - especially since it is pre-owned.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:35 PM
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Advice for what exactly? How does it shoot?
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:52 PM
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Advice for what exactly? How does it shoot?
I am worried that the odd staining is possibly a symptom or a warning sign of a mis-aligned barrel or cylinder, or something else that actually makes the firearm dangerous to be used. It seemed to shoot fine, but it was my first time out on the range with it, so I don't have any history to judge. If somebody said, "Yes - I had the same problem and sent it in for repairs, now it's better", or "nope - that's typical, don't worry," at least I'd have some direction.

I do realize that it's really hard to make such a judgement with only a short description and some pics, but I am hoping that the huge collective experience of the forum might be able to help. If not, on my next opportunity, I'll just take it down to the shop and see if the armorer can look at it.

Thanks!
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:04 PM
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Unless it has been shot a HUGE amount, the only thing I would worry about on a clean used 686 is how much "Bubba improved it!"
I have shot them with lead loads on a long weekend shoot until they were more black than silver, and they cleaned right up, ready for next time. Soot pattern, flame cutting, drag line, stain on front of cylinder? Just clean normally, lube and shoot. Repeat PRN
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:25 PM
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Unless it has been shot a HUGE amount, the only thing I would worry about on a clean used 686 is how much "Bubba improved it!"
I have shot them with lead loads on a long weekend shoot until they were more black than silver, and they cleaned right up, ready for next time. Soot pattern, flame cutting, drag line, stain on front of cylinder? Just clean normally, lube and shoot. Repeat PRN
LOL! Thanks for the guidance, and your service! :-)
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:03 PM
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That’s NOT normal!!

Been shooting revolvers for over 50 years and never saw anything like that on my many guns or anyone else’s. I owned a 686 and over 50 officers carried and shot them at State and Fed requalifications with only powder burn on the end of the cylinder which is normal for the number of rounds fired.
The picture of the cone does not look right.
I would not clean it up and call S&W and see what they say. If you send it in,it needs to be just like the pictures show. JMO!

There are a number of issues that come to mind but I will not speculate.

I would call S&W before shooting it anymore and if they won’t help you find a qualified gunsmith.

Good find and should be an easy fix.

Be SAFE and shoot often but not with that gun until it is looked at!

Last edited by Execpro; 07-15-2018 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:44 PM
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I see what Exactpro is saying. The powder marks on the yoke are unlike any I’ve ever seen.

If if were me, I’d call S&W tomorrow and send the photo to someone real-time via email so they can look at it. Then you’ll know whether or not to send it back.

If you DO send it back, I would not clean it either so they can see exactly what the issue is.

Best of luck, and better safe than sorry.
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Old 07-16-2018, 07:06 AM
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Ok, the "nopes" have it! This is just what I was looking for - I'll be contacting S&W as soon as I can and getting their input on it.

Thanks!
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:15 AM
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Just a note: I don't think your barrel is canted. I think the front part on your rear sight mount is canted to the right (as you hold the gun). I used a 3x5 card on my screen, and can also see the screw is off center).

I'll leave the staining to the experts.
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:52 AM
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How did the gun shoot—did it shoot to poa? Did it shoot nice small groups? After that many rounds you should have some ideas on whether or not it shoots well ?
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Old 07-16-2018, 01:27 PM
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Just a note: I don't think your barrel is canted. I think the front part on your rear sight mount is canted to the right (as you hold the gun). I used a 3x5 card on my screen, and can also see the screw is off center).

I'll leave the staining to the experts.
Look again.. barrel is canted and the rear sight is fine.
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Old 07-16-2018, 04:32 PM
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Default NOT SAFE TO SHOOT!

Upon further review of the pictures, if the cylinder is in the closed position and the cylinder is locked,then the cylinder is NOT in alignment with the barrel!
I see burn marks on the left side of the frame. This is caused by Fire (extream heat) NOT powder residue (There is a lot of that also over the entire gun).
It looks like a timing issue to me,but could also be caused by other issues as well.

Again I would tell you NOT to shoot this gun again!

Good news is that it can probably be repaired if no physical damage has been done to the frame.

Last edited by Execpro; 07-16-2018 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 07-16-2018, 04:57 PM
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The light strikes and the barely breath on it single action trigger tell me that Bubba has been at work again. That implies that no telling what else Bubba fixed. Needs expert attention.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:08 PM
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Yup - I am going to send it in. I tried calling into S&W Customer Service a few minutes ago. I got into the queue at 5 minutes before 6 PM EST, waited on hold about 10 minutes, and then at 6:05, they just dropped my call. Now the phone says they are closed for the evening. :-( I'll try again tomorrow.

Thanks to everybody for the diagnosis assistance! You are all an awesome help!

Last edited by dhandler; 07-16-2018 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 07-19-2018, 11:44 AM
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Please let us know what the outcome is. Thanks
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Old 09-19-2018, 10:58 PM
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Lightbulb UPDATE - Got some info from S&W about my 686

Since you (Execpro, specifically ) asked for an update, here it is...

After almost 6 weeks of anticipation, I finally got some info back from S&W. Here is what they want to do to fix my revolver:

1 - Realign the forcing cone
2 - Turn the barrel
3 - Correct hammer push-off
4 - Replace after-market hammer spring

The real issue with the frame burning/staining is coming from the misaligned cone - and a side effect of that problem is probably why they want to turn the barrel (maybe some interior gouging/scraping?). The hammer push off was really a safety issue more than anything else, and I don't care that much about the hammer spring. After about $200 and 4 more weeks, she should be home.

Thanks again to everybody for your advice. I am looking forward to finally getting to take it out to the range.
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Old 09-19-2018, 11:30 PM
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Thanks for the update! I don’t know what you paid for it used,but when you get it back from S&W it should look and shoot like a new gun.
Buds Gun Store sells that model for over $700 with tax.
It sounds like even with the repair cost you got a good deal.
Enjoy!!!

Be SAFE and SHOOT OFTEN!
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:02 AM
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Glad you had S&W check your gun. Once it is returned you'll be able to use it with confidence.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:32 AM
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Please let us know how it shoots when you get it back. I'm sure that they will fix that.I have never seen heavy sooting like that on only one side.
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:48 PM
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Thanks for the update! I don’t know what you paid for it used,but when you get it back from S&W it should look and shoot like a new gun.
Buds Gun Store sells that model for over $700 with tax.
It sounds like even with the repair cost you got a good deal.
Actually, I am now a bit in the red after the repair as compared to new. Oh well... it is what it is. Once I get the final paperwork in the mail I am going to take it over to the LGS where I purchased it and see if we can work something out. I realize that there is always some risk in purchasing a used firearm, which I accept, but maybe they'll try to do something - probably some free range time. Who knows?
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:24 AM
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Actually, I am now a bit in the red after the repair as compared to new. Oh well... it is what it is. Once I get the final paperwork in the mail I am going to take it over to the LGS where I purchased it and see if we can work something out. I realize that there is always some risk in purchasing a used firearm, which I accept, but maybe they'll try to do something - probably some free range time. Who knows?
Although I've been fortunate enough to never get a "Bubba'd" gun... this is the first time I've heard of Smith billing for fixing a barrel that wasn't aligned right and setting the forcing cone, both weren't done right at the factory. The only thing they are fixing that was likely "Bubba-d" is the aftermarket hammer spring. There would be no reason for Bubba to turn the barrel! I'd talk to someone else there in regards to that bill OP. There is a chance I guess Bubba could have played with the FC and barrel but it's not likely.

I've dealt with them 3 times in 20 years, once in the last 5, and Smith was great, no questions asked, just shipping paid both ways, a good fix, and a quick turnaround time. Wouldn't hurt to call them and might save you some cash!
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Old 09-23-2018, 05:43 PM
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Thanks - I will call and ask, but on a previous status call I made, they told me something along the lines of "since you aren't the original owner, it's not considered warranty work." I was truthful with them when I sent it in and said that I purchased it used. It never hurts to ask. :-)

I've sent an e-mail to the store I purchased it through explaining that I've been very happy with all of the new firearms I've bought through them in the last few years, but this first used one has left me feeling unhappy - maybe they'll do something to make it up to me.

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Although I've been fortunate enough to never get a "Bubba'd" gun... this is the first time I've heard of Smith billing for fixing a barrel that wasn't aligned right and setting the forcing cone, both weren't done right at the factory. The only thing they are fixing that was likely "Bubba-d" is the aftermarket hammer spring. There would be no reason for Bubba to turn the barrel! I'd talk to someone else there in regards to that bill OP. There is a chance I guess Bubba could have played with the FC and barrel but it's not likely.

I've dealt with them 3 times in 20 years, once in the last 5, and Smith was great, no questions asked, just shipping paid both ways, a good fix, and a quick turnaround time. Wouldn't hurt to call them and might save you some cash!
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Old 09-24-2018, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhandler View Post
Since you (Execpro, specifically ) asked for an update, here it is...

After almost 6 weeks of anticipation, I finally got some info back from S&W. Here is what they want to do to fix my revolver:

1 - Realign the forcing cone
2 - Turn the barrel
3 - Correct hammer push-off
4 - Replace after-market hammer spring

The real issue with the frame burning/staining is coming from the misaligned cone - and a side effect of that problem is probably why they want to turn the barrel (maybe some interior gouging/scraping?). The hammer push off was really a safety issue more than anything else, and I don't care that much about the hammer spring. After about $200 and 4 more weeks, she should be home.

Thanks again to everybody for your advice. I am looking forward to finally getting to take it out to the range.
HOPEFULLY, IT WILL BE LIKE BRAND NEW WHEN YOU GET IT BACK.....

OUT OF CURIOSITY---IS THERE SOME REASON WHY THIS WORK IS NOT COVERED BY THE WARRANTY ? ? ? I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE RULES...

IS IT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT THE ORIGINAL OWNER---OR DID BUBBA VOID THE WARRANTY, WHEN HE CHANGED OUT THE SPRING ? ? ?

IN ANY EVENT, IT WILL BE WORTH THE MONEY IF YOU END UP WITH A PERFECTLY FUNCTIONING, RELIABLE AND SAFE REVOLVER.......
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:19 PM
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HOPEFULLY, IT WILL BE LIKE BRAND NEW WHEN YOU GET IT BACK.....

OUT OF CURIOSITY---IS THERE SOME REASON WHY THIS WORK IS NOT COVERED BY THE WARRANTY ? ? ? I REALLY DON'T KNOW THE RULES...

IS IT BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT THE ORIGINAL OWNER---OR DID BUBBA VOID THE WARRANTY, WHEN HE CHANGED OUT THE SPRING ? ? ?

IN ANY EVENT, IT WILL BE WORTH THE MONEY IF YOU END UP WITH A PERFECTLY FUNCTIONING, RELIABLE AND SAFE REVOLVER.......
You are mostly right on all counts. I spoke to S&W today - Yes, because I am not the original owner (I was truthful), the lifetime warranty doesn't apply to me. However, the rep on the phone did say that sometimes, if it is a minor issue, they'll sometimes cover things under the warranty regardless. Now, if there is significant issues caused by owner negligence (or heavy modification), S&W can also decline warranty work - even if you were the original owner. They let the armorer working on the firearm to have some discretion in the decision, although they will typically fix almost anything for the original owner, within reason.

You are absolutely right - it didn't really matter what they charged me, this is a revolver I always wanted, and I just want it back and working properly! :-)
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Old 09-25-2018, 07:06 PM
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You are mostly right on all counts. I spoke to S&W today - Yes, because I am not the original owner (I was truthful), the lifetime warranty doesn't apply to me. However, the rep on the phone did say that sometimes, if it is a minor issue, they'll sometimes cover things under the warranty regardless. Now, if there is significant issues caused by owner negligence (or heavy modification), S&W can also decline warranty work - even if you were the original owner. They let the armorer working on the firearm to have some discretion in the decision, although they will typically fix almost anything for the original owner, within reason.

You are absolutely right - it didn't really matter what they charged me, this is a revolver I always wanted, and I just want it back and working properly! :-)
Yeah, I've never had to send in any of my vintage Smiths from the 70's that are older than me; thus I couldn't be the original owner. I've only sent in factory new bought by me stuff to S&W and Springfield, (before Springfield pulled that BS 2 years ago that has everyone I know now hating them.)

At least the fix is only $200 bucks and this Revo will be better than it was when it left the factory the first time. This will work out nice for you OP and you will have the gun you've always wanted. And good for you for following up with S&W. It only cost you a few minutes of time and now you know for sure rather than later second guessing if you threw money away (been there, done that.)

Good luck and you know we'll want to see lots of quality pics when you get your new baby back!

-Ham
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:20 PM
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You are mostly right on all counts. I spoke to S&W today - Yes, because I am not the original owner (I was truthful), the lifetime warranty doesn't apply to me. However, the rep on the phone did say that sometimes, if it is a minor issue, they'll sometimes cover things under the warranty regardless. Now, if there is significant issues caused by owner negligence (or heavy modification), S&W can also decline warranty work - even if you were the original owner. They let the armorer working on the firearm to have some discretion in the decision, although they will typically fix almost anything for the original owner, within reason.

You are absolutely right - it didn't really matter what they charged me, this is a revolver I always wanted, and I just want it back and working properly! :-)
WELL BEST WISHES ! ! !

I SINCERELY HOPE THAT YOUR REVOLVER TURNS OUT TO BE EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE LONGED FOR, AND EVERYTHING THAT IT SHOULD BE......

I PURCHASED A NIB M617, OF CURRENT PRODUCTION, AFTER SEARCHING FOR MANY MONTHS, FOR A CLEAN USED 4", PRE-IL, 10 SHOT. IT IS THE FIRST AND ONLY REVOLVER THAT I OWNED WITH AN IL....

I COULD NOT WARM UP TO IT IN STOCK FORM, SO I SOUGHT TO PERSONALIZE IT BY SWAPPING OUT THE GOODYEARS FOR A SET OF AHRENDS TACTICAL CONVERSION GRIPS, AND THE SIGHTS FOR AN S&W RED RAMP FRONT, AND A WIDER NOTCH WEIGAND COMBAT REAR. I ALSO REMOVED THE IL, AND REPLACED IT WITH "THE PLUG".THE FINISHED PRODUCT IS SHOWN BELOW.....

AT LAST I WAS A SOMEWHAT HAPPIER CAMPER, AND I PROCEEDED TO SHOOT THE SNOT OUT OF IT. IT SOON BEGAN SPITTING LEAD, AND LEAD BEGAN ACCUMULATING IN THE FLUTES OF THE CYLINDER. I CALLED FOR A SHIPPING LABEL, AND I SENT THE GUN IN FOR REPAIRS....

THEY REPAIRED THE CUN, BUT INFORMED ME THAT I HAD VOIDED MY WARRANTY BY REMOVING THE IL. AS A RESULT, THEY CHARGED ME FOR SHIPPING BOTH WAYS, AND THE COST OF PARTS AND LABOR TO REMEDY THE SPITTING, AS WELL AS INSTALLING ANOTHER IL. BTW---THEY DID NOT RETURN MY PLUG......

ONCE THEY HAVE YOUR WEAPON, YOU ARE AT THEIR MERCY......
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Old 10-06-2018, 02:38 PM
dhandler dhandler is offline
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Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant?  
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Default Final Update - She's home and great

My 686+ got delivered last night and I ran right out to the range today to see how she performed. I am very happy with S&W's job! The single action is still nice and light, as expected, but without any dangerous push-off. After about 40 rounds, it's not all stained & burned like it was before - just the right amount of powder to clean off. No spitting either. They didn't fix the barrel cant, however, that really wasn't the problem, and I know it doesn't really affect the performance. (And, from what I am told, now-a-days a little cant is 'within spec')

Thanks again to everybody for their advice and interest!
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  #32  
Old 10-06-2018, 07:48 PM
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muddocktor muddocktor is offline
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Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant?  
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I'm glad everything worked out for you man!
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Old 10-07-2018, 01:11 AM
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one eye joe one eye joe is offline
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Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant? Funny soot staining - barrel cant?  
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I'm glad everything worked out for you man!
DITTO ON THE muddocktor's POST......

I WISH YOU MANY YEARS OF ENJOYMENT, AS YOU SHOOT THE SNOT OUT OF IT ! ! !
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