|
|
08-13-2018, 10:27 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
Likes: 20
Liked 481 Times in 142 Posts
|
|
How S&W checks cylinder gap today......
Straight from the Tech's mouth.....
He told me they shoot for a gap of .004-.010.
The checking procedure is they insert the .004 gage in from one side and cycle the cylinder around and whatever size gage get's pulled to the other side is the final gap spec. on that revolver.
He said it "should" be the same on both sides but if a .011 doesn't go all the way through it could be shipped out.
Told him my M69 was returned back with .010 and .005 and he said to keep and eye on it to see if the wide side gets any larger from use or just send it back for another try.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-13-2018, 10:51 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Los Angeles,California
Posts: 1,885
Likes: 3,791
Liked 4,094 Times in 1,212 Posts
|
|
They do "shoot" for .004-.010. That's what I've been told also.
My snub got sent back for a .005-.011 gap. It shot horrible off to one side. But that's a 3".
I just got it back and shot it recently. They closed the gap and it shoots nicely (for a 3"). Took em 2-3 weeks to fix. Customer service was excellent and gave me no hassles.
Not being negative but yet another thing to check when buying new.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-13-2018, 11:08 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: HOUSTON, TEXAS
Posts: 10,123
Likes: 7,091
Liked 14,253 Times in 5,366 Posts
|
|
Either I am very lucky or too much of an amateur to notice. Good luck with your Guns!
|
08-13-2018, 12:19 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 8,713
Likes: 19,282
Liked 11,738 Times in 5,351 Posts
|
|
Building revolvers correctly requires a degree of skill and attention to detail. I guess it's much easier to assemble CNC machined and MIM parts that just slide back and forth.
|
08-13-2018, 01:47 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Alabama
Posts: 558
Likes: 107
Liked 523 Times in 248 Posts
|
|
Go ahead and send it back again. I probably would. They need to get it closer than that. They will usually make good on things like that. It just a pain and I know a disappointment. I have a 329 pd I sent back a couple of times but it is great now. I tell you though, do not expect perfection from any of the makers. I think we enthusiastist scrutinize way more than even the above average consumer and things like your uneven bc gap do not even get noticed by most. I bet it is common with most swing out cylinder type revolvers due to tolerance stack in the many moving parts. Less common in single actions I bet.i know you can often get a feeler gauge to start through a gap but it will not pass all the way through or you feel a tighter spot. That tells you they have to be uneven. Just because you squeeze a gauge through does not mean it is even as it can have high or low spots and we are only talking a few thousandths.you would have to have some super narrow gauges to tell that.I am not going to check mine as it would just be one more thing for me to worry about.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-13-2018, 06:54 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 232
Likes: 255
Liked 160 Times in 110 Posts
|
|
I have a model 60 safe queen bought new whose cylinder face rubbed up against the forcing cone. Sent it back and it was fixed. How it ever passed QC is beyond me. S&W is capable of doing better work than that. Maybe that's why the older guns are so popular and expensive.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-13-2018, 07:19 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,705
Likes: 1,049
Liked 3,510 Times in 957 Posts
|
|
I have one of the best gunsmiths in the country here in town and anything that goes out of his shop is set at .004. Not .003 or .005. Everything that gets adjusted is .004 unless the owner specifies different. The closer the better, but any build up and it will cause drag quickly. He told me the average shooter wouldn't know the difference until it got around .006 or .007 and then accuracy would start to fall off where you would really notice
|
08-13-2018, 08:18 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Alabama
Posts: 558
Likes: 107
Liked 523 Times in 248 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddietruett
I have one of the best gunsmiths in the country here in town and anything that goes out of his shop is set at .004. Not .003 or .005. Everything that gets adjusted is .004 unless the owner specifies different. The closer the better, but any build up and it will cause drag quickly. He told me the average shooter wouldn't know the difference until it got around .006 or .007 and then accuracy would start to fall off where you would really notice
|
I do not believe accuracy falls off with a larger gap. Velocity might(negligible ) but I shot some with large gaps that were accurate . I set mine to 6 to 8 thousands when I have set my barrel back because when I tried 4 thousandths I would have debris build up. But to each his own. Much of this is academic. As I get older I worry less about the minutia but how they shoot. I shot one of my 686s this afternoon after work that has a larger bc gap. With a hornady 158 grain xtp and 13.5 grains of 2400 I put 5 shots in about an inch at 25 yards off my rest. I can live with a 10 thousandths bc gap in a gun that shoots like that.
|
The Following 6 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-13-2018, 09:23 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
Likes: 20
Liked 481 Times in 142 Posts
|
|
I think too tight a cylinder throat has more effect on accuracy than the barrel gap.
I honed out the throats to .4305 and will do more target shooting and see how it does.
Not in a big hurry to ship it back.
I am curious about that barrel sleeve installation tool they use which engages the rifling. How does it not raise or burr up the edges of the rifling??
|
08-13-2018, 09:49 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
|
|
My wife just bought me a 686+ PC for my birthday and the cylinder gap on it the .003 feeler gage will go all the way through and the .0035 won't .. checked from both sides .. checked each cylinder and all were the same ..
The measurements lead me to believe the barrel is true .. Still haven't shot it so can't say how it shoots but the action feels very smooth and does feel like you could stage the trigger though I don't do that .. since all I own is autos .. till now !!
They can be fine tuned .. guess its all according to which smith is doing the pistol you get !!
|
08-13-2018, 10:12 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
Likes: 20
Liked 481 Times in 142 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitwabit
My wife just bought me a 686+ PC for my birthday and the cylinder gap on it the .003 feeler gage will go all the way through and the .0035 won't .. checked from both sides .. checked each cylinder and all were the same ..
The measurements lead me to believe the barrel is true .. Still haven't shot it so can't say how it shoots but the action feels very smooth and does feel like you could stage the trigger though I don't do that .. since all I own is autos .. till now !!
They can be fine tuned .. guess its all according to which smith is doing the pistol you get !!
|
Wow that is a tight one! All my revolvers, of different brands, are in the .006-.008 range.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-13-2018, 10:33 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by fortyshooter
Wow that is a tight one! All my revolvers, of different brands, are in the .006-.008 range.
|
Was just talking to a friend that said his tightest was 5 and the others he has are like yours in the .006 to .008 range .. I am happy with the .003 ..
I was surprised that it was this tight .. I checked it twice because I thought I had made a mistake .. That's why I called a friend who I knew had a number of revolvers .. to ask him what some of his were ..
None of his are Performance Center though !!
Last edited by Whitwabit; 08-13-2018 at 10:35 PM.
|
08-13-2018, 10:56 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,705
Likes: 1,049
Liked 3,510 Times in 957 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogdoc
I do not believe accuracy falls off with a larger gap. Velocity might(negligible ) but I shot some with large gaps that were accurate . I set mine to 6 to 8 thousands when I have set my barrel back because when I tried 4 thousandths I would have debris build up. But to each his own. Much of this is academic. As I get older I worry less about the minutia but how they shoot. I shot one of my 686s this afternoon after work that has a larger bc gap. With a hornady 158 grain xtp and 13.5 grains of 2400 I put 5 shots in about an inch at 25 yards off my rest. I can live with a 10 thousandths bc gap in a gun that shoots like that.
|
I certainly can't argue with results. Only going by what I was told and my "smith" built a lot of competition revolvers back in the day. Personally I would be more worried about the velocity loss on my hunting revolvers and while I know the larger gap can effect velocity, how much I have no clue. I have 2 model 686 that I hunt with one is a 8 3/8" and other is a 7". With certain loads and powder, the velocity is about the same and with other loads there is a bigger difference in velocity between the 2 barrel lengths. There are just so many variables that one could do testing till dooms day and still not have all the answers. That's what makes loading and shooting so much fun for me.
|
08-13-2018, 11:06 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 1,705
Likes: 1,049
Liked 3,510 Times in 957 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by fortyshooter
I think too tight a cylinder throat has more effect on accuracy than the barrel gap.
I honed out the throats to .4305 and will do more target shooting and see how it does.
Not in a big hurry to ship it back.
I am curious about that barrel sleeve installation tool they use which engages the rifling. How does it not raise or burr up the edges of the rifling??
|
I'm a firm believer that the correct size bullet make a huge difference in how accurate a revolver is. I have 2 almost identical model 686's that I hunt/shoot out to around 80 yards since that's the limit of my backyard range. My 8 3/8" will shoot cast bullets sized to .358 so accurate it scares me and my 7" will shoot the same bullets in groups at 80 yards almost twice as large. Use a jacketed bullet sized to .357 and the accuracy completely reverses! I'm convinced that it is the diameter more so than cast vs jacketed. One day I'll try some .357 cast in the 7" just to confirm, but right now I'm set at least for the upcoming season. Cast for Hogs and jacketed for deer and coyotes.
|
08-13-2018, 11:08 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 350
Likes: 20
Liked 481 Times in 142 Posts
|
|
Maybe I need to send it to the Performance Center for a blueprint job!
I bought it for some field carry and plinking.
For serious .44 shooting my 7.5 Ruger SBH comes out!
Last edited by fortyshooter; 08-13-2018 at 11:11 PM.
|
08-13-2018, 11:23 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Sneads Ferry NC
Posts: 463
Likes: 575
Liked 509 Times in 195 Posts
|
|
I would think that with a gap that is .004 on one side and .010 on the other, that you would eventually get erosion on the larger gap side and then it would continue to get worse. That's just my thinking.
|
08-14-2018, 08:26 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Arkansas Ozarks
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 4,223
Liked 3,603 Times in 1,245 Posts
|
|
Older revolvers are not immune to gap problems either. I had a 38/44 that was so tight that after a couple cylinders of shooting it bound up terribly. I have experienced the same thing a time or two with other older S&W. It may be worse these days but it is not a new thing.
|
08-14-2018, 09:06 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 1,833
Likes: 1,062
Liked 2,109 Times in 860 Posts
|
|
I just checked my Kimber K6s.
.003 front
.008 rear
|
08-14-2018, 09:41 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 890
Liked 2,786 Times in 890 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Kane
I have a model 60 safe queen bought new whose cylinder face rubbed up against the forcing cone. Sent it back and it was fixed. How it ever passed QC is beyond me. S&W is capable of doing better work than that. Maybe that's why the older guns are so popular and expensive.
|
I doubt that every production gun gets checked by QC. Most likely, they have a sampling plan that requires inspection of select guns based on production numbers and past rejections. Old process that is effective. Unlike a certain manufacturer that doesn't seem to inspect anything - relies on the end user to be their inspector.
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-14-2018, 10:11 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,482
Likes: 550
Liked 1,427 Times in 666 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRB1
Unlike a certain manufacturer that doesn't seem to inspect anything - relies on the end user to be their inspector.
|
You mean Tesla Motors? Latest about them is rear bumpers falling off their $60000+ Model 3's.
All Smith revolvers are test fired at the factory, correct? At least mine have come out of the box with powder burns on every other charge hole.
The whole point of a QC program is to NOT have to inspect every part, assembly, or finished product.
|
08-14-2018, 10:19 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 97
Likes: 4
Liked 32 Times in 19 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnystrom
I just checked my Kimber K6s.
.003 front
.008 rear
|
All of them?
|
08-14-2018, 10:26 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Central VA
Posts: 2,535
Likes: 3,774
Liked 4,332 Times in 1,548 Posts
|
|
Had a Dan Wesson Pistol Pack once (never should have sold it). Got to try gaps between 0.0015" and 0.010". Didn't see any real differences except that below 0.003 I got some cylinder drag with lead bullets after some shooting. Went back to using their recommended 0.006".
__________________
Foster Positivity.
|
08-14-2018, 04:14 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
|
|
Thought that somehow I had measured my new 686+ PC wrong last night since the cylinder gap from everyone's revolvers are in the 6 to 8 range while mine is between .003 and .004 on all cylinders measuring both sides as the same ..
Today I found a gage that is .0035 and it goes all the way through but the .004 won't .. I measured all 7 cylinders and they all measured the same ..
Is this normal for a Performance Center Revolver or did I just get an exceptional one for the Performance Center ??
Is there anyway to know who the smith was that did the pistol ??
|
08-14-2018, 04:42 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Highlands, North Carolina
Posts: 1,522
Likes: 2,096
Liked 2,202 Times in 883 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MRB1
I doubt that every production gun gets checked by QC. Most likely, they have a sampling plan that requires inspection of select guns based on production numbers and past rejections. Old process that is effective. Unlike a certain manufacturer that doesn't seem to inspect anything - relies on the end user to be their inspector.
|
Kimber was the first Thurd that came to my mind! I'll never own anything else they "produce"...
Last edited by HamHands; 08-14-2018 at 05:37 PM.
|
08-14-2018, 05:09 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,482
Likes: 550
Liked 1,427 Times in 666 Posts
|
|
My 69 2.75, 0.0025 to 0.003, all 5 charge holes.
Ballistics by the Inch has some data on cylinder gaps. Generally, the velocity difference between 0.001 and 0.006 looks negligible. Take home message for me is once there is a gap the width is a minor issue as long as it's in factory specs.
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-14-2018, 06:56 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
|
|
interesting that at a 2 inch barrel all the ammo performed within a very small amount of difference .. the longer the barrel of course the higher the velocity ..
|
08-14-2018, 07:33 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The SW Va Blue Ridge
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 88,962
Liked 24,781 Times in 8,482 Posts
|
|
"...checked each cylinder and all were the same .. "
"...I measured all 7 cylinders and they all measured the same …"
Being a nitpicker , your revolver has ONE cylinder and SEVEN chambers.
__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-14-2018, 07:52 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,829
Likes: 3,902
Liked 5,900 Times in 2,542 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muley Gil
...Being a nitpicker , your revolver has ONE cylinder and SEVEN chambers.
|
Okay, I'll play: his revolver has ONE cylinder and SEVEN charge holes...
__________________
Pickpocket
|
The Following 2 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-14-2018, 08:10 PM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Posts: 1,482
Likes: 550
Liked 1,427 Times in 666 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapworth
ONE cylinder and SEVEN charge holes...
|
That's what the factory calls them. I didn't know that was the correct term till last week.
Relic of the cap and ball days?
|
08-15-2018, 03:33 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
|
|
LOL .. What ever I called it everyone seemed
to know what I meant !!
|
08-15-2018, 09:02 PM
|
Vendor
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kansas City area
Posts: 6,129
Likes: 53,438
Liked 13,435 Times in 4,240 Posts
|
|
I always thought the terms "chamber" and "charge hole" were interchamberable...
|
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
|
|
08-16-2018, 04:01 PM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Central Illinois
Posts: 2,928
Likes: 1,351
Liked 2,660 Times in 1,302 Posts
|
|
I'm not a revolver guy since this is the first revolver I have owned since the early 70's ..
Will take a little getting use to .. Already can see how its much different then any of my autos with quick reset triggers which only have to be release a few 1/8's of an inch while the 686 has to be release the full length of trigger travel .. I'm much slower dry firing it per round ..
Though it will make a good night stand revolver for things that go bump in the night !! Little chance of a mis fire or other malfunctions with it ..
|
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|