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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 09-20-2018, 12:56 PM
sgc sgc is offline
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Default What happened? Almost tragedy.

My wife wanted to go shooting. I took her to the range with my model 60-15, 3" barrel. We were shooting 38's at about 20 feet. Just before we left i put in a 357 round from a box of reloads i had bought at the gun show. They were 158 grain RNFP CMJ. The target was on a soft plywood board nailed to 2 posts. As soon as I shot, my wife who was standing about 12 feet directly behind me, let out a yelp. We pulled a tiny sliver of metal out of her neck. It was right on a vein and we were lucky it didn't penetrate deeper or that it didn't hit her in the eye. I don't understand why it didn't hit me. What happened? I don't get it. I don't see how that sliver could have travelled like that or where it came from.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:01 PM
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Could have hit a nail. No telling where a bullet or fragment might land. I've seen many people bleed around shooting endeavors, including clay targets.

She was wearing glasses, of course?
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:07 PM
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Glad that both of you are OK.

Shaved jacket material from the forcing cone?

Any smeared metal on the outside of the 60's cylinder? If so, you may have a slight timing problem. -S2
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:23 PM
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Default Reloads?

While I cannot speak to the cause of the injury, I will share that I would never shoot the reloads of another.

Call me crazy.

But, for me, WAY too many things can go wrong!
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:27 PM
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I blew up a 4" Model 19 in 1997 so I am very wary of reloads.

My guess is that the metal shard came from a nail, not from a shaved bullet, or a piece of the bullet AFTER it hit the target. Actually, I'd suggest the latter as my first option. I have seen it happen, especially if the bullet HIT a nail.
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Old 09-20-2018, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinlz View Post
While I cannot speak to the cause of the injury, I will share that I would never shoot the reloads of another.

Call me crazy.

But, for me, WAY too many things can go wrong!
Probably not related to the incident, but I agree I'd never shoot someone's reloads or sell anyone mine.
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Old 09-20-2018, 02:33 PM
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I hope she is alright and that is a very scary incident. I also hope it didn't put her off shooting.

When you are outdoors, it's a good idea to stand either to the left or right and not directly behind the shooter. As one of the posters said, eye protection is essential.
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Old 09-20-2018, 03:57 PM
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Eye protection always.

I caught a ricochet/spalling off my eyebrow a couple years back. Bled pretty good. Had on polycarbonate prescription glasses. A little lower and, well...still would have my eye
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:39 PM
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Ok 20 feet isn't that much. That's what? 7 yards?

Really depends on what kind of backstop you have behind the plywood. I have been nicked over the years and a few times drawn blood from shooting at steel plates intended for 22lr but not everyone reads the rules and shoots rifles or large caliber pistols and it dimples up the plate. That can cause fragments to come back at ya too. I'm quite sure the reloads, timing/pistol had nothing to do with it.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:10 PM
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Both the public and private ranges I shoot at free-float the targets, with the solid surface backstop downrange 25 yards.
The public range suspends targets from chicken wire held on stapled firing strips, and the private range from cardboard.


Eye and ear protection should be used by everyone on a range, and can't imagine using someone else's reloads.

I hope your wife is OK, and not scared off the hobby.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:24 PM
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RGV already said it, but less than seven yards is kind of close. That sliver was like a knife, and everybody "knows" you're not supposed to let someone with a knife get closer than 21 feet (actually, much farther than that, if you have had a choice).

Seriously, that target was too ****ing close.
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Old 09-20-2018, 06:57 PM
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Thanks. Good advice.
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Old 09-20-2018, 07:09 PM
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Did somebody say "Never buy reloads at a gun show????
I sure hope so. I think I'd rather smash my thumb with a 10-pound sledge.
Hey, there are reputable reloaders out there. I have used Freedom Munitions remanufactured ammunition for a couple years and I'm pretty confident with them since they also make new bullets. But that's my taking-chances limit. Sometimes saving a buck or two ain't worth it.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImDrRichard View Post
When you are outdoors, it's a good idea to stand either to the left or right and not directly behind the shooter. As one of the posters said, eye protection is essential.
Are you sure standing to the side is best? Don't know how older revolver fail, but with the new ones grenade perpendicular to the shooter.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:06 PM
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Glad she's ok. I went plinking in a gravel pit a few years back and learned not to shoot 22's at anything sitting on top of an old tire.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:55 PM
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I was looking today at the metal sliver we pulled out of her neck and it has a gold color on one edge that makes me think it was part of the bullet.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:13 PM
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I took a ricochet from a 9mm Major round in the forehead at a USPSA match as I was waiting to shoot. Man did it bleed. I put a napkin on it and tightened up my hat to put pressure on it. I shot two more stages, finished the match and went to the hospital where they surgically removed the bullet.

Years ago I took a .45 ACP ricochet at an indoor bowling pin match. That one put me on my knees. I'm glad your wife is okay.

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Old 09-21-2018, 04:27 PM
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Personally I would rather stand behind the shooter as the shooter could block me from getting hit. Stand to the side and you could get pelted with a casing or even sheared lead off the bullet due to forcing cone problem that might be from out of time cylinder.

One day at work a mechanic was clobbering an axle flange to get it to pop loose. We could hear pieces of metal that were breaking off from the flange hitting the walls. We told him to stop but he had to be stubborn and all of a sudden he sort of jerked back. He went into the office and had me look at it but all I saw was what looked like a very tiny mark on his neck below his jaw.
He felt it wasn't right and he went to the hospital. They checked him out and said he wasn't going anywhere and they put a neck brace on him. Seems the piece of flange metal went into his neck, just missed his juggler vein by a hair and it lodged in the back of his neck instead of going through and out. They put the brace on his neck in hopes the fragment wouldn't dislodge by his neck movement. They operated the next morning and removed the piece of metal.

Bullets can ricochet off other bullets left in the bullet trap. I reclaim my lead from my sand trap and many seemed to have been hit by other bullets. Sand doesn't flatten out the side of a bullet.

I refuse to go to a gun range that doesn't have shooting booths to at least possibly protect the shooters from side debris from other shooters.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinlz View Post
While I cannot speak to the cause of the injury, I will share that I would never shoot the reloads of another.

Call me crazy.

But, for me, WAY too many things can go wrong!
I will shoot mine and my brothers... but that is it! Learned my lesson(s) long ago shooting factory reloads from GeorgiaArms.

Then from seeing the results from "Ultra-Max" over on a little well knows AR-15 forum secondhand.

OP, it's likely you have a slight timing problem and the forcing cone was struck; sending scrapnal just to the right or left of you. If this isn't the case then you hit a piece of metal on your target.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgc View Post
I was looking today at the metal sliver we pulled out of her neck and it has a gold color on one edge that makes me think it was part of the bullet.
Did you keep your brass? A quick look to see if it was damaged would answer that.

I've been hit by shavings from the forcing cone of guys 5 bays down at the range. Last one bloodied up my arm. He was adamant it wasn't him, but the RO took the revolver to a lined bay, fired it, then had to count all the shards. Guy is banned. If he had just said "wow, let's check it out" he would still be there.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:29 PM
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An IPSC shoot I was at was over & a couple of guys were practicing. A couple of old thick stop plates had been left out previously & had been cratered by some fools with rifles. Someone fired a 45 at one... the bullet struck a by-stander. There was injury & the Police got involved. It was determined that the 45 slug had been turned inside out by the crater.
All damaged plates were destroyed & nothing was left out again.

Flat steel plates were deemed to be safe for lead pistol bullets which splattered...
It was thought that the craters were caused my HV jacketed 223.

Hope your wife is OK.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:54 PM
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The casing was fine. If it is a timing issue what would it take to fix? Would I send it to s&w?
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgc View Post
The casing was fine. If it is a timing issue what would it take to fix? Would I send it to s&w?
As long as there is a warranty coverage, I send stuff back to the mothership. I'm not much able to do repairs, and see no point in paying a gunsmith to fix something the factory will do for free.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:27 PM
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I had a copper flake come back from 50 yards and cut the side of my head when I was kid.

Seven or eight years ago I had a whole fiocchi .357, 142gr truncated FMJ come back from shredded tire backstop at the indoor range of a gun club and hit a guy in the foot three lanes down. We were the only two people in range. He gave me back my bullet. Sure looked like one of mine. It was launched from my 28-2 6". His foot was fine, but he learned not to pick up a bullet that recently stopped moving...

ALWAYS wear eye protection. Scary things can happen FOR SURE!!!
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sgc View Post
I was looking today at the metal sliver we pulled out of her neck and it has a gold color on one edge that makes me think it was part of the bullet.
So you were shooting jacketted bullets?If so,it is probable that the bullet either hit a nail or something hard in the backstop(rock?).
bullets that get fragmented when hitting an obstacle will sometimes have a weird path.
If you want to ckeck if the timing of your gun is the culprit,have a large piece of paper put up at 90 degrees from your gun aprox 6 feet away(too close and the normal gas blast will shred it)and check for small holes in it.
Hope your lady will not shy off from shooting.I wish her well.
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:29 PM
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A year or two back my wife & I were shooting on our range out behind the house. My backstop is a huge pile of root wads & logs with a lot of plain ole dirt holding all together. I have a couple of 6"x 6" treated posts 8' apart, and I change out the 4' x 4' plywood nailed to them as needed. The last time I ended up using OSB (oriented strand board) instead.

I was shooting my 4516 with Rainier plated HP's, running about 800 fps, at a target stapled to the board. Immediately after one shot, I yelped as something struck my upper bicep, with a pretty good thump. I decocked & holstered the 45, and as I was rubbing my left arm, I looked down and saw a slightly deformed bullet at my feet!

It had bounced back at me off of the OSB! I had a hard time believing it at first, but it was the only explaination. I was standing about 15 yards from the target. It certainly reinforced my decision to wear safety glasses. No skin was broken, but it left a red whelp on my arm. I am SO glad it hit me and not the wife! I'm too dumb to stop shooting, but it may have frightened her away from it.

Anything is possible. I lean towards the bullet shaving at the forcing cone, but a ricochet is certainly not out of the question, at that distance especially. Glad you are both OK. Always wear eye protection!
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:34 PM
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Last month at Steel Challenge, I had a cut from bullet fragment off steel clear over in the next bay. Nothing serious in the shoulder but it would have been if in the eye. Just the latest in a career of shooting with hard targets here and there.
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Old 09-21-2018, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikerjf View Post
Glad she's ok. I went plinking in a gravel pit a few years back and learned not to shoot 22's at anything sitting on top of an old tire.
Another good lesson is to NEVER shoot a 22 at bowling pins no matter how far away they are. You will not make a hole in them. You will usually not knock them over. And you will almost always get some sort of back bounce or ricochet.
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:13 PM
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Talking NUFF SAID!

[QUOTE=sgc;140173417] a box of reloads i had bought at the gun show.

I stopped reading at this point. Glad all is well.
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Old 09-21-2018, 08:31 PM
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Another good lesson is to NEVER shoot a 22 at bowling pins no matter how far away they are. You will not make a hole in them. You will usually not knock them over. And you will almost always get some sort of back bounce or ricochet.
Bowling pin leagues have been shooting BP's with 22 rim fires for a VERY long time. We have a separate class specifically for 22's. Distance is 30' & the pins are placed near the edge, so they will fall off the table. Some rounds glance off, some bury themselves entirely in the pin, others are 1/2 in 1/2 out, so YES,THEY CAN INDEED make a hole.

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Old 09-21-2018, 09:02 PM
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Friend was shooting at a target nailed to a tree and got part of one back at him .. Struck him in the chest and ripped a small hole in a jacket he was wearing .. He and the group with him thought he had hit a nail but a few years latter cutting said tree down a fence post was found in the middle of it .. Think he hit the metal post a few years before ..
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:22 PM
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Things happen. I once had a 22 bounce almost straight back at me from a cedar tree.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:25 PM
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My brother caught a shard to the cheek from his 500 that drew blood. Other than that thankfully nothing has ever happened to me or anyone else I was shooting with.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:12 PM
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Default 2 things I Don't Do

Shoot at ground targets too close
Shoot anyones reloads but my own
I've seen people get hit by fragments coming back when the ground target was too close. I once had a dud from 3D company reload get stuck in a 38spl barrel. I eyeball my reloads powder level before placing a bullet on.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:08 AM
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I think that it is very unlikely that the fragment came from the gun. If your wife was directly behind you, I'm not sure what path a fragment exiting the side of your gun would take to end up directly behind you. It's more likely that it was from the back stop. High velocity bullets do some weird stuff after they strike something. If the gun was out of time, you would have been shaving with the 38's also. The moral of the story is: ALWAYS use wrap around eye protection, proper ear protection, a hat with a visor (Not on backwards!) and proper range safety methods. It sounds like you did and that prevented this incident from being worse than it was.
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:40 AM
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Bullets bounce back from packed dirt too!
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:05 AM
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I competed in CAS for a few years, years ago. I caught a LOT of lead spatter and such. I always wore glasses, duh, and was fortunate enough not to lose any blood over it. This kind of thing happens. It's part of the sport, I guess. Guns are dangerous. Reloads? Yeah, I'm scared of my own reloads! Lol!
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Old 09-22-2018, 06:31 PM
smithman smithman is offline
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I had a 7.62x39 bullet fragment come back and embed in my arm once. Drew blood.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:44 PM
adwjc adwjc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoc9sw View Post
As long as there is a warranty coverage, I send stuff back to the mothership. I'm not much able to do repairs, and see no point in paying a gunsmith to fix something the factory will do for free.
Don't know about that - "Just before we left i put in a 357 round from a box of reloads i had bought at the gun show."

Don't think the warranty would cover this.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:18 PM
Smith657 Smith657 is offline
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One should not fire a 357 round after shooting 38 Specials without scrubbing the carbon out of the chambers. Not only could the carbon cause the longer cases to stick but it could prevent the case from releasing the grip on the bullet and drive pressures high. Whether this contributed to the situation it caught my attention when I first read the first post.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:20 AM
smoothshooter smoothshooter is offline
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Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I blew up a 4" Model 19 in 1997 so I am very wary of reloads.

My guess is that the metal shard came from a nail, not from a shaved bullet, or a piece of the bullet AFTER it hit the target. Actually, I'd suggest the latter as my first option. I have seen it happen, especially if the bullet HIT a nail.
One of the most dangerous things on a shooting range is a steel target with impact crater damage, if you are not at least 15 yards back. I have seen even large pieces of bullets come bact toward the firing line at pretty good speeds and have seen shooters and bystanders hit several times.
Some had bleeding injuries.
One was a female scorekeeper with a clip board standing near the shooters right elbow. A long, twisted piece of a .45 Ball bullet jacket came back and hit her thumb just under the nail near the tip,and was protruding out the side. It was a move and shoot tactical match with steel targets. I'll have to give her credit; when hit she just kind of jerked her hand back for a half second, and went back to recording the shooter's hits and misses as she ran behind him from one firing point to another.
Never cried, called time out, or anything. I didn't even know she was hit until after the shooter has finished his run, and I saw blood trickling down her arm, and I was standing about 3 feet behind her when it happened.
A couple of guys took her to the ER to get the copper jacket out and get a few stitches.

A good woman to "Ride the river with" as they used to say.
Good lookin' too.

Last edited by smoothshooter; 10-15-2018 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 01:43 AM
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I was shooting at a gravel pit about six months ago. Gravel was 50 yards away. Shooting at a cardboard box 20 yards away with a GP100.
Using factory loaded plated bullets (158 gn RN in 38 special). A piece of the plating spit out of the cylinder gap and hit me in the neck, embedding slightly and drew a lot of blood. Hurt pretty bad. I stopped shooting plated bullets after that.


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Old 10-15-2018, 02:30 AM
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...these discussions always make me think of the video below...and how lucky he was...

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Old 10-15-2018, 09:04 AM
TX-Dennis TX-Dennis is offline
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So far the only ricochet that's hit me was a .22LR. I was shooting a swinging plate, and I guess I hit it at just the right point in its arc to send the bullet right back at me. Hit my right arm. Stung pretty good, but it didn't break the skin.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:40 AM
petemacmahon petemacmahon is offline
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Like many here have related, weird things happen. I can't stress enough about the efficacy of making sure everyone on the range is wearing eye protection. A couple of my experiences:

- I was shooting a Raven .25 auto back in the 80s. I shot up a box of ammo having fun plinking at cans sitting above a 5 foot rock wall. That thing was surprisingly accurate at 10 yards. After I was done with one mag, I glanced down to look for brass and sitting one inch from my foot was spent .25 caliber bullet. I was like WHAT?!

- took my kids and my brothers kids out for a fun day of plinking with 22s. My 8 year old (at the time) daughter was having fun shooting my S&W Model 17, with me standing behind her to cock the hammer each time because she couldn't yet manage that. I had a bunch of targets set up in an old dump on the property. unbeknownst to me, behind one of those targets was a cross section of an old cast iron pipe. The rest of the kids were all either sitting or standing in the bed of my pickup about 20 yards behind us. She shoots and I hear a PING. I had already cocked the revolver for the next shot when I heard a FTHWAP behind us and my son goes Ow!

That 22 ricocheted arcing way up in the air and came down on a very steep angle to glance off my son's neck and into the bed of the pickup. It seemed it was in the air for 30 seconds! I still have the bullet. He had only a little red welt. TALK ABOUT LUCKY!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:20 AM
Muley Gil Muley Gil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletpoints View Post
I took a ricochet from a 9mm Major round in the forehead at a USPSA match as I was waiting to shoot. Man did it bleed. I put a napkin on it and tightened up my hat to put pressure on it. I shot two more stages, finished the match and went to the hospital where they surgically removed the bullet.

Years ago I took a .45 ACP ricochet at an indoor bowling pin match. That one put me on my knees. I'm glad your wife is okay.
Welcome to the Forum.

And I thought I had a hard head!
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:40 AM
jim46ok jim46ok is offline
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I hope she is alright and that is a very scary incident. I also hope it didn't put her off shooting.

When you are outdoors, it's a good idea to stand either to the left or right and not directly behind the shooter. As one of the posters said, eye protection is essential.
?? Seems to me that by standing directly behind the shooter, the shooter is between you and the target. Ricochets would have to curve in flight (won't happen) to get around to where you are. Also, should particles leave the gun to the side, behind the shooter is the safest place......
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:43 AM
jim46ok jim46ok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulletpoints View Post
I took a ricochet from a 9mm Major round in the forehead at a USPSA match as I was waiting to shoot. Man did it bleed. I put a napkin on it and tightened up my hat to put pressure on it. I shot two more stages, finished the match and went to the hospital where they surgically removed the bullet.

Years ago I took a .45 ACP ricochet at an indoor bowling pin match. That one put me on my knees. I'm glad your wife is okay.
Wow. Pretty lucky guy! Want to join me in Vegas???...........or, maybe you're a bullet magnet. Haha
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Old 10-19-2018, 11:52 PM
Barrie Barrie is offline
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I own a 357 which is the 627-8 model. It seems everytime I shoot it with 357 ammo I get lots of mini fragments across my left cheek face. After about 10-15 rounds my face is usually bleeding slightly from the effects of the reverse splatter. Its not so bad with 38spl ammo fired thru it at all.I wonder if the forcing Cone is a wee bit out of whack or not. The ammo was Blaxer 155GR if I remember correctly.
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Old 10-20-2018, 12:08 AM
waffles waffles is online now
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I own a 357 which is the 627-8 model. It seems everytime I shoot it with 357 ammo I get lots of mini fragments across my left cheek face. After about 10-15 rounds my face is usually bleeding slightly from the effects of the reverse splatter. Its not so bad with 38spl ammo fired thru it at all.I wonder if the forcing Cone is a wee bit out of whack or not. The ammo was Blaxer 155GR if I remember correctly.
This is 100% not normal and you need to stop shooting that gun immediately and send it back to S&W. If a gun is making you bleed you're either on the wrong end of it or it's broken.
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