Man what a difference! 148 grain wadcutters have zero recoil and are very accurate. It's like night and day with these small j frames. I just ordered 1000 rounds from SG Ammo.

I load wadcutters (they're my favorite .38 bullet), and I load them fairly lightly. It really depends on the load. DoubleTap sells some that have a little oomph (more than your typical target load). 38 Special MATCH 148gr. Full WADCUTTER 50rds

So you are going to use wadcutters for your carry ammo in the 642? I had thought about doing that also.

Yes I am! It's very controllable and makes a bigger hole.

Do what you want but most wadcutters are pretty low on the performance scale.

I'd shoot a .38Spl +P if I were you. Sub 2" barrels do not help ballistic performance a bit.

Practice and learn to control a suitable round.

My "plinking" load for my SP101 .357 is fun to shoot but is a mouse fart by comparison with the ripping Buffalo Bore 158gr JHP carry ammo. Don

Edited to add: Don't what ammo you bought from SG Ammo but perhaps Fiocchi? If so, it's a wonder it gets out the barrel. Fiocchi lists 730fps/148gr out of a 5" NV (non vented pressure barrel). Even with a 5" revolver barrel, velocity is severely degraded going to a snubbie. Find another round.

Would it even get through a heavy wool coat far enough to do much more than infuriate an angry assailant? Don

http://https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/

Lucky Gunner has a very good article weighing the pros and cons on using wadcutter ammo for self defense. I have carried it off and on for years and am back to using it now in my 642.

Hits count and this ammo allows for fast follow up shots.
I do admit to carrying Gold Dot 135+P for ease of reload.

Consider this round from Buffalo Bore:

.38 Special hard cast full wadcutter, 860 fps from a 2" J-frame

Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash Heavy .38 Special Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

Rich

I have been shooting Magtech 148gr wadcutters myself and planned they would be my .38 carry ammo this winter in my 442 (replacing ~125gr soft points). My holdup was the wadcutters didn’t shoot to point of aim, usually being inch plus south at 10 yards.

On my last Brownells order, I bought some of the powderpuff Hornady 110gr Critical Defense hollow points. They shoot to aim point in today’s testing. Recoil was maybe a twitch more than the wadcutters, but I was pleasantly surprised. I will need to go through several boxes to be confident, but was very impressed on paper and on the range. Only downside is the cost... Wadcuutters win there.

Take a look at the standard pressure 150 grain hard cast full wadcutters in 38/357 caliber sold by Buffalo Bore. These loads are claimed to make over 800 fps in a 1 7/8" barrel J Frame and be fully safe to shoot in the bargain. Shooting these produces more recoil than the standard target strength wadcutters that may range from high 600's into low 700 fps range.

I carry five of these in my EDC J Frames with a 158 grain SWCHP or a Speer Gold Dot 135 grain JHP for short barrels used as a reload since they feed more quickly and easily without fumbling as much. I carry these reloads in a 2X2X2 waist belt pouch or in a speed strip carrier. These BB full wads are more than competent for personal protection in a J Frame. They will penetrate sufficiently (and more than some other factory loadings) while cutting a full diameter hole. I have shot a tough old jackrabbit with one of these and when the bullet struck, it sounded like a fastpitch softball hitting the catcher's mitt, FWIW. More impressive was the response present displayed by the tough old rabbit. That's not a larger critter, but the full wad put it down right there, only with very serious disassembly present! As a comparison, I've had these run off and die after being shot through with a +P premium loading in .38 Special.

These rounds are not cheap, but I have no negatives to report about them. I've seen many LEO's who carried the regular target full wadcutters first up in their duty weapons over the years. Some had actual experience with them. They trusted them. And as is documented, Jim Cirillo who had significant experience with the NYPD in stakeout squads was prone to carry full wadcutters for that duty. Don't discount the full wadcutters out of hand as personal protection worthy carry loads!

Edit: I see RichCapeCod has listed the link for the round I am recommending here.

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So long ... Ken

I love wadcutters as well. Unfortunately, they’re not nearly as cheap as they used to be, so I roll my own.

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Mark Lathem

Wadcutters are great fun to shoot, accurate, mild recoil, what's not to like? And in the small light-weight revolvers that are so popular these days, they really shine.

As far as carring for SD purposes, I'm not so sure they are a good choice. The mild recoil and accuracy also means relatively low energy imparted to the target......not that I'd want to be shot with one, any more than with a .22LR. In addition, a lot has been written over the advisability of using any handloaded ammunition for SD purposes. It is controversial to be sure, and opinions are all over the spectrum, but in my mind that makes it even less advisable. I suggest carrying good, factory loaded ammo for SD purposes.

I carry Buffalo Bore's 150gr Full-Wad Hard Casts rated @ 850fps for self defense in my M36's... They are extremely accurate and push their advertised velocity out of my M36's. And from the stories told by my older and retired Cop Buddies who had to use them on perps... They all say a full wadcutter pushing mid 800fps or more from a 2" barrel at bad breath distance are certainly an attitude adjuster/fight stopper. Take it for what it's worth and of course YMMV. When I train with them I aim for the region below the navel and above the groin. 2-3 pills there will absolutely ruin a dirtbags day.

I believe in carrying what you can honestly hit with. Only you know that .

Thank you for your kind reply. Your logic makes a lot of sense to me. Making accurate hits is what counts. There is no law that states our problem will be at contact distance. What I really don't want is to miss and hit a bystander because I am shooting some super duper round I am not ready for. Also, I really wonder how much +P you actually get out of a 1-7/8" barrel.

Same here. I can change the power level with an easy adjustment on the Dillion press. They shoot better than anything else and you can power them up or slow them down.

Been shooting and carrying wadcutters for years. Literally tens of thousands cast with my old Cramer mold, but only recently have tried powder coating.
My load of choice has always been 2.7 gr of Bullseye. I know where they shoot and have no worries carrying them. There is only so much one can squeeze out of a 2" .38. I prefer fast, accurate follow-up shots.

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ive used DEWC for years.....practice and protection.....

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There's nowt so queer as folk

All true. And, if you're carrying an all steel Model 36, 649, or maybe an all steel K frame, just as examples of snubbies that are easy to shoot as opposed to Airweights and Scandium guns, you will not be as concerned with recoil. That's why I switched away from my 642 to my 649, never mind K frames.

But I have no fault with wadcutters - they WILL work for self defense.

This gun a mid 70's 15-3 with some slight modifications is designed to shoot wadcutters. with a 1.2 in dia. Douglas premium barrel and in DA mode, it settles right back on the target, there is no recoil to speak of. I had the work done in 1979 by TNT Arms in North Conway NH. Slick polished action, full Bomar rib, coil spring, reamed charge holes

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Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

The standard 148 gr wadcutter target loads aren’t sexy, they just work very well for sd.

They’re pleasant to shoot, quick to get back on target for follow up shots and facilitate skill acquisition.

Don’t get caught up with ballistic table number crunching, ballistic gel photos, sexy ammo names (eg Black talon, critical this or that) or boutique brands.

Those things don’t reflect real world effectiveness in sd ammo.

Target 38 wadcutter ammo has been working very well in real life sd applications for longer than many of us have been on this earth.

Not to hijack the thread but I feel exactly the ssme way about every day 45 acp standard hardball ammo

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Pete
I ain't no fortunate son

If you don't want expanding ammo, I would look at 158 LSWC. Seems to tumble, and sideways bullets, tumbling through a body, are decent balistically.

Bulk 38 Special Ammo For Sale - 158 gr LSWC Federal Ammunition In Stock - 1000 rounds

I usually shoot 9mm 147gr jhp in my modified 637.
Would there be any advantage in switching to a wadcutter of similar weight?

Boy, a cat fight can start with this concept. Never could figure why that is. I wouldn't feel under gunned with a 148gr / HBWC. After all, there isn't that much difference between a 148 & 158. A single shot from a 158gr lead RN killed Lee Harvey Oswald, toe tag dead. It'll penetrate to where it needs to be. Is it the best defensive .38? I think that depends on who is behind the sights. What's best for me might be all wrong for you and the reverse.

I hand load mine. I like tightwad for HBWC, and Hornady Frontier bullets.

Great video, he made the point I was trying to make better than me.

we used to load 158 grain, hollow based wadcutters backwards in the case for short distance defense loads in the J frames before todays "answer to all" ammunition.

One thing I don't miss about that load was the hour or so of lead removal from the barrel.

Today, it's 130 grain FMC for practice and 130 grain HP for carry.

If a bad guy gets past this, by that time my wife will be in full rescue mode to save me.

If wadcutters are fun, you gotta try these guys.

It seems most ballistic charts show at least into gel that with snubbies, despite hollow points, there is so little velocity, that very little expansion occurs. Even with +p the expansion is not all that dramatically more expansion.

This, if you expect little expansion. Then with wad cutters or hollow points you expect to get a 38 caliber hole going in. And not much larger hole exiting if you even get an exit wound.

So a wad cutter is designed to cut and nOt expand. Usually wad cutters show deeper penetration because the diameter doesnt enlarge like the minimal expansion that occurs (and increased drag) with hollow points.

So do you want a longer (deeper) 38 caliber wound channel, or a shkrter slightly larger diameter wound channel? That is really the choice here.

Ultimately death occurs from loss of blood. So, if death is The desired result. creating a wound channel (or multiple) that creates the fastest blood loss is “the best”. Which is better longer narrower channel or shorter wider channel???

I can see good arguments on both sides. I can see how a cutting design like wad cutter cutting through clothing and getting full or deeper penetration and holding onto velocity (and this penetration) can reliably get results. Hollow points may over expand upon hitting bone? Or not go as deeply?? Plugged hollow point with clothing may just result in being little more than a wadcutter anyhow.

While no guarantees about distance of threat. But I think the staristics show that it is usually well inside 20’ if not inside 10’. So Im not sure wad cutters ballistic coefficient matters at all.

Shooting an animal in the neck to kill it is not efficient. As unless you actually hit the spinal cord, wont cause huge bleeding. Shooting the lamb in the vital orgsns would have been far more “humane” way to dispatch the animal. It was not a fault of the design of the ammo. At least in my opinion.

For me, adequate penetration is my first priority. I want more rather than less. If penetration is not adequate to allow the projectile to touch or pass through vital organs and important nerve centers, the outcome is likely not immediately good, or perhaps even after the fact. My long time experience with full wadcutters is that given adequate velocity, they are good penetrators. What is damaged or destroyed deep inside the target is never a guaranteed thing, which is why I tend to prefer more than one bullet strike on the target! That increases the odds of the preferred outcome. I do not and would not recommend a target loaded full wadcutter as a good choice for personal protection. On the other hand, 850/900 fps with a hard cast full wadcutter from a 1 7/8" barrel snubby will definitely qualify for my recommendation. I have not found much expansion to exist in most .38 Special loadings, even some of the premium ammo examples loaded to +P pressures. So for me, a full bore sized hole as far as the bullet travels is what I want. Remember that expansion results in even more diminishing velocity and thus penetration. That said, I am personally aware of quite a few times when a target loaded full wadcutter got the job done!

I have seen the results of an expanding bullet that did not penetrate to the vitals on both humans and animals. A very serious wound was the result, but it certainly was not immediately deadly. Physics is physics, and the laws of physics cannot be changed. We all have limitations, and those are different for each of us. I want a round fired from a handgun that I can control and shoot very well, including rapidly, and also with which I can practice enough to maintain my shooting skills so as to give the best accuracy I can personally manage. Remember that many of us are not as young as we used to be. We cannot see as well as when we were younger, and we do not have the hand and body strength that we used to have. Some of us have arthritis or other maladies that handicap our ability to fire and function as we used to be able to do. I still want to have my personal protection with me at all times, especially as I get older and less physically able.

Others may be able to handle a more powerful platform than I, but I want to be able to handle the most powerful platform that I am capable of handling. I have seen far too many folks over the years who were trying to use a handgun that was simply to big and too powerful for them. Their efforts were not nearly as effective as they could have been. I'm way past the time when "macho" gets it done for me. I want to be effective! So I shoot handguns and ammunition that gets it done for me and I am still effective. I am also still determined to get the job done without hesitation. Effective self protection involves so much more than just the equipment we choose to perform that task. I try to remember that all the time and I try to be ready to deploy if that is called for! And I am very happy with my choice of handgun and the ammo that I carry in it as well. When the flag flys, it's always somewhat of a crapshoot with no guarantees. I'm ready to take my chances with that!

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So long ... Ken

148gr wadcutters or 135 grain speer gold dot is all that goes in my j these days. Both shoot point of aim.

My retired cop son and a friend of mine who is a law enforcement investigator for a state strongly disagree. One of them remarked "Stupid is as stupid does" and both have seen enough first hand shootings, one of them a .357 Mag to the head, gory indeed.

Better have more power than you think you need than less.

I'm no Jerry Michulek but I can get really heavy Buffalo Bore .357s on COM pretty rapidly. No weenie factory wadcutters for me, ever. Don

This.

All day, everyday for 41 years. My M49 has been a true workhorse.

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Blame your point of aim, not the round. What's in the neck? Not much so the lamb would have bled out - eventually. Should have made chest shot and hit the heart. Wadcutters will penetrate deeply. Neck shot was a waste of ammo.

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Support your Police, & NRA

...just wondering...anyone here ever had a defensive shootinting with wadcutters?

Friend of mine shot a guy in the neck with a Model 60 using the standard FBI 158 LSWC HP +P load...it stuck in the guys neck and he turned and ran....

I am sure they will work...the question is how well....

Bob

I am of the school that a 38 from a snubby isn’t going to reliably expand if at all. Recently I ordered some Underwood 150 gr 38 wadcutters. They advertise something like 850 FPS. Let’s say 800 out of a snubby.

I shot some at some ar 500 steel targets last weekend. A bit snappier than the 148 Remington wadcutters I was shooting, but not bad. It looked liked the steel was being dented some. I wonder if these bullets are harder.
I like em.

there is reports of police using wad cutters killing many people.

Probably killed more than all these modern self defense ammo.

IMO, the federal hst is the best 38 special defensive round on the market at the moment. https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/t...-38-special-p/

Bonus points for looking like a wadcutter (obviously it's not).

So you're saying they didn't penetrate the few inches of muscle to make it to the bone? Or did they hit the bone and stop? I'm not sure many rounds would penetrate a thick spinal bone...... Would be interesting to see what rounds would defeat a spinal column.... I have a hard time believing that it wouldn't have made it through the little bit of muscle to make it to the bone.

Speaking from experience......

Just don't cut that frt sight.....if you plan to go back to standard ammo.

Aloha, Mark

*
Argh. Please revisit that practice. Any of the references on the proper part(s) of the anatomy of the body to target will refer to an area often described as two vertical lines through the nipples, one horizontal line through the nipples, and another horizontal line roughly at the intersection of the throat and the main part of the body. That is where all the vitals including major blood vessels are.

Head shots, more properly referred to as face shots, should generally be sent to the triangle formed by the outside edges of the eyes, and the bottom edge of the nose. There is a LOT of information based on research that shows that these are the places in which handgun bullets are most likely to be successful.

I am not a fan of the J frame, and consider it to be a BUG only, except for expert use, and the research data on defensive shootings would cause a reasonable person to consider a 5 shot revolver to be inadequate. (I have a 940 that I rarely carry, and a 296 that I carry only for limited purposes; my EDC is a Glock 33 with at least one spare mag, and when I leave town, more often that not I am carrying a G17 and at least one other.) When I carried a .38 J frame, it was almost always as a BUG. The .38 wadcutter is in fact well proven, and my speedloaders had standard pressure SWC for ease of reloading. My last few years in uniform, I carried the G33 as a BUG, with a spare mag. I'm pretty big and almost never wore anything other than a jumpsuit, so I made that work.

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NHI, 10-8.

“... the research data on defensive shootings would cause a reasonable person to consider a 5 shot revolver to be inadequate.“

Could you please reference such research?

The statistics I have seen on civilian self defense shootings is the vast majority of shootings take place at about 10 feet and less than 5 rounds shot.

Based on these statistics, a 5 round Jframe would infact be about the perfect match to the vast majority of CIVILIAN self defense scenarios!

I agree for a multiple threat scenerio, a jframe or any revolver for that matter, is capacity limited and a double stack semi-auto is more appropriate or “better” choice. But the statistics do not seem to support that this is the predominant situation. Yes it happens, and every person must make a choice of what weapon is most appropriate for what they decide is a reasonable threat they may face.

If I head to a generally good are of town with low violence, a jframe may be a reasonable choice. If gang violence is on the rise and in a higher population area with generally more crime, then a higher capacity weapon may be a better choice. A gun is a tool. And like any tool, there is the proper tool for the job. Do you need a common carpenters claw hammer to pound a nail in, or do you “need” an eight pound sledge hammer? Sure the sledge hammer may work, but is it really the proper tool? Similarly, if you want to break apart concrete sidewalk slab, you certainly would not want to use a standard carpenters claw hammer.

You tailor the tool for the expected job that is expected.

For civilian self defense. Any gun carried is essentially a BUG. It is a last resort. Unlike military or law enforcement, civilains are not called to go into a hostile environment. If the environment is so dangerous that we feel carrying a gun is essential and required. Then a civilian should SERIOUSLY evaluate why the hell they should put themselves into that situation!

The best gunfight is the one you AVOID in the first place!

Tom Givens has a lot of data, and IIRC, Gary Roberts has some too - he has written on the issue, but I am not sure if that material is available outside of a limited access forum. One of the major problems is that handgun rounds suck, and that often multiple good hits are needed to stop a determined offender. (A pistol is what one carries when they have no specific reason to expect a problem ...) The Urey Patrick and John Hall book I regularly cite here has a whole chapter (I think chapter 4 of the 3rd edition) on this issue. Compound that with the difficulty in shooting a J frame (and I just saw another demo of that Friday), and it is revealed as a very poor choice. For LE, it is most properly considered a 3rd handgun - Haggard has written on this. and his logic is impeccable.

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NHI, 10-8.

Show us some of these cases, don't just state it. Most cops in the past who used issue .38 Spl revolvers carried ineffective 158gr round nosed soft lead slugs. Don