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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 05-03-2020, 10:52 AM
Bladeswitcher Bladeswitcher is offline
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Wow! 9mm is STOUT out of a J frame . . .  
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Default Wow! 9mm is STOUT out of a J frame . . .

Picked up a couple of new-to-me revolvers recently and took them to the range yesterday. One is a 940-1, all-steel J-frame, chambered for 9mm. The other is a Model 12-2, alloy (Airweight) K-frame chambered in .38 special.

I shot cheap 9mm Blazer brass 115gr FMJ out of the 940. The Model 12 was fired using mild reloads (4.0gr W231/158gr LSWC). The recoil sensation of the 9mm was considerably harsher. Even these pedestrian plinking rounds had quite a bit of smack out of the J-frame. It's manageable, but I don't think I'd want to shoot hundreds of rounds in a session. The Airweight K-frame was surprisingly tame. I'm sure +P would be a whole different kettle of fish, but it wasn't bad at all with my reloads.

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Old 05-03-2020, 11:05 AM
Bladeswitcher Bladeswitcher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal44 View Post
I have an LCR 9mm snub.

Very much more recoil with standard pressure 9mm rounds than I expected.

Not a gun you would want to shoot a lot . . .
Have you ever experienced rounds pulling from the case due to recoil? I've heard that's a possibility with the super light guns like your LCR.
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Old 05-03-2020, 03:24 PM
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Yes it is. Just the opposite of what most shooters seem to assume. Chronographing various 9MM factory ammo quickly shows why 9MM recoil out of these little revolvers is a bit "stout". Along with standard pressure stuff, I've chronographed 9MM +P , +P+, NATO, etc. in the 2" S&W 940, Ruger SP101 3", S&W 547 3" and Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" revolvers. Not Wimpy. I wonder if people figure the 9MM must recoil less than .38 Spcl., since the 9MM is a smaller/shorter cartridge?

BTW, I did a very informal test of bullets pulling in a light 9MM revolver. I used my lightest 9MM revolver, the 940. After 8 rounds fired, Winchester and IMI 124 grain NATO only pulled about .002". Same test with the Federal 124 +P HST revealed .050" of pull. So bullet pull is a reality. That being said, I've never had it interfere with the function of any of my 9MM revolvers...
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Old 05-03-2020, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock185 View Post
BTW, I did a very informal test of bullets pulling in a light 9MM revolver. I used my lightest 9MM revolver, the 940. After 8 rounds fired, Winchester and IMI 124 grain NATO only pulled about .002". Same test with the Federal 124 +P HST revealed .050" of pull. So bullet pull is a reality. That being said, I've never had it interfere with the function of any of my 9MM revolvers...
I couldn't trust a gun/load combination that had any detectable bullet pull. If I was bound and determined to use that gun - if I had no other choice - I would probably add a stab crimp to the loads.

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Old 05-03-2020, 06:22 PM
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Wow! 9mm is STOUT out of a J frame . . .  
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Originally Posted by Rock185 View Post
BTW, I did a very informal test of bullets pulling in a light 9MM revolver. I used my lightest 9MM revolver, the 940. After 8 rounds fired, Winchester and IMI 124 grain NATO only pulled about .002". Same test with the Federal 124 +P HST revealed .050" of pull . .
After 8 rounds fired? What did you do, leave certain rounds in the gun through multiple reloads?
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Old 05-03-2020, 06:24 PM
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I’d rather shoot an N frame with 44 mags than a j frame with stout loads lol. That little gun just nails the nerve in my palm!
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:38 PM
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Bladeswitcher, exactly. I shot 4 rounds, leaving one unfired round in the moon clip. Then loaded 4 fresh rounds in the clip and fired those, leaving the same cartridge unfired. Then measured the one that remained unfired.

I was surprised that the HST pulled as much as it did. I haven't tested it, but wouldn't be surprised to learn that some .357 ammunition in a light revolver might exhibit some pulling of unfired rounds too.
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock185 View Post
Bladeswitcher, exactly. I shot 4 rounds, leaving one unfired round in the moon clip. Then loaded 4 fresh rounds in the clip and fired those, leaving the same cartridge unfired. Then measured the one that remained unfired.



I was surprised that the HST pulled as much as it did. I haven't tested it, but wouldn't be surprised to learn that some .357 ammunition in a light revolver might exhibit some pulling of unfired rounds too.
I will certainly check that out next time I'm practicing with my 360 Airweight. Recoil is stout but manageable and not as bad since I swapped grips.

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Old 05-04-2020, 07:29 AM
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I've got three 9mm 637-2 J-frame conversions. Weight with titanium cylinder and combat grips is about 12oz (about 11oz lighter than a 940). Recoil with 147gr jhp is brisk, but not particularly unpleasant. So far, I've not had a problem with crimp jump.
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Old 05-04-2020, 08:07 AM
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Been there done that with the Ruger LCR9 The only rounds that didn’t jump crump was Hornady critical defense and I tried out a lot of factory self defense Ammo. When they did jump it didn’t tie the gun up but it was noticeable when I unloaded the cylinder and checked the fifth round. The LCR is a great little carry gun. I sold the 9 and went with the 38spl.
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Old 05-05-2020, 06:17 PM
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It is all about Physics......

Take a Gas or recoil spring (A-5)shotgun vs a O/U type action

and a Auto pistol vs a revolver style weapon and you will find out that the no moving parts weapon, that does not reduce energy in any way, shape or form...................
will have a lot more Recoil, than the "Buffer system" working with the moving parts weapons, along with the weight of the weapon.
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Old 05-05-2020, 06:40 PM
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I like my EDC 940 a lot better after I switched the Uncle Mike's for Hogues.

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Old 05-05-2020, 07:25 PM
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I forget who said it, I think Massad Ayoob, but it might have been Clint Smith:

Quote:
These guns are meant to be carried a lot, shot a little.
Unless you like pain, of course.
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Old 05-05-2020, 11:16 PM
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I was lucky to find S&W Hogues for my 9mm that were take offs from a newer model.
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Old 05-06-2020, 12:05 AM
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9mm is considerably more powerful than .38 special, despite the smaller cartridge case. Naturally, recoil will be sharper.

I know some believe the .38 special is more powerful than 9mm because of the long case, but it’s just not so.
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Old 05-06-2020, 12:14 AM
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Even the material of a handgun makes a big difference.

I have shot Sig 10mm ammo, and my own similar loads, through a 1911. Not painful, but it's sharp snapping recoil.

I shot the same loads through my XDM 10mm with polymer frame. Wider grip, and the polymer absorbs shock. Much more pleasant.
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Old 05-06-2020, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I forget who said it, I think Massad Ayoob, but it might have been Clint Smith:

These guns are meant to be carried a lot, shot a little.

Unless you like pain, of course.
I've got to question anyone who would even consider the phrase "shot a little". I've never been a fan of Ayoob.

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Old 05-06-2020, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevada Ed View Post
It is all about Physics......

Take a Gas or recoil spring (A-5)shotgun vs a O/U type action

and a Auto pistol vs a revolver style weapon and you will find out that the no moving parts weapon, that does not reduce energy in any way, shape or form...................
will have a lot more Recoil, than the "Buffer system" working with the moving parts weapons, along with the weight of the weapon.
Exactly. My 625 kicks more than any .45 semi-auto pistol I've ever fired.
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Old 05-06-2020, 10:12 AM
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Semi auto's use some of the recoil to operated the slide and that absorbs recoil somewhat. The 9mm is a higher pressure cartridge than the old .38 specials and therefore a bit snappier too. There are also ergonomics to consider and many of the semi autos are a bit better in the hand than revolvers are for certain hands.
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Old 05-06-2020, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
I've got to question anyone who would even consider the phrase "shot a little". I've never been a fan of Ayoob.
I'm not his biggest fan but he is often right on target in his writings and musings. Just not always, I admit that. But I don't know why you don't like that phrase because it's quite explicit and meaningful.
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayFramer View Post
9mm is considerably more powerful than .38 special, despite the smaller cartridge case. Naturally, recoil will be sharper.

I know some believe the .38 special is more powerful than 9mm because of the long case, but it’s just not so.
For a different opinion by a contrarian who's a .38 Special fan:

I do believe it's so that the .38 Special is the more powerful and capable of the two and don't believe that it's because of the long case, though the longer case allows .38 Special to achieve its meaningful performance with lower pressure. The .38 Special is quite capable if not deliberately hampered with weak and watery load choices, choices which include much of the so called "+P" sold these days. In many cases +P is just so much extra ink on a box label. We're a timorous bunch, this present generation of shooters.

If I get to select the factory loads or else hand load the ammunition then .38 Special can make 9mm eat dirt. In both snubs and in longer barrels alike.

Yeah, the .38 Special is said to be hampered by elderly revolvers still in circulation out there. The .38 Special has suffered from a dearth of ammunition development in recent times while the 9mm has enjoyed all the developmental attention with the supposedly better bullets, propellants, and various +P and +P+ loadings offered. It's conveniently overlooked though that there are a number of 9mm pistols out there, also hoary of head with age, which shouldn't be fired with "performance" 9mm ammunition, but somehow 9mm gets a pass with performance load development while .38 Special has been shunted to the side except for a few intrepid boutique ammunition makers who assume that adults with discretion are purchasing their wares.

For having "lots a' bullets" on tap, for the automatic pistol fan, the 9mm's great. 9mm benefits from current marketing, but it's not considerably better. For meaningful terminal ballistic performance the .38 Special cartridge can still hold its own against the 9mm. Truth be told the two cartridges are two peas in a pod, performance wise.
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISCS Yoda View Post
I'm not his biggest fan but he is often right on target in his writings and musings. Just not always, I admit that. But I don't know why you don't like that phrase because it's quite explicit and meaningful.
If anything I should shoot my carry guns MORE, not less.
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Old 05-06-2020, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
I've got three 9mm 637-2 J-frame conversions. Weight with titanium cylinder and combat grips is about 12oz (about 11oz lighter than a 940). Recoil with 147gr jhp is brisk, but not particularly unpleasant. So far, I've not had a problem with crimp jump.
Three? Who did the work?
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:54 AM
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"If I get to select the factory loads or else hand load the ammunition then .38 Special can make 9mm eat dirt. In both snubs and in longer barrels alike"

Which commercially availible .38Sp loads outperform the commercially available 9x19?
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:57 AM
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Roo ster, TKC reamed my titanium .357Mag cylinders and cut them for moon clips. I timed them and cut titanium center pins to fit myself.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:42 AM
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Some people like to poo-poo the 9x19, calling it a weak caliber, barely makes the grade for personal defense, but then say the 38 Special is an excellent defensive caliber. Realistically, the 9x19 packs a lot of punch in a very small package.

Under the old copper crusher pressure testing method, the 9x19 was seen to generate much lower pressures than the 357 Magnum, but with modern testing equipment, it actually generates the same pressure as 357 Magnum and even more in NATO and +P versions. Velocity wise, the 9x19 is very close to the short barrel 357 Magnum ammo.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:59 AM
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Recoil was stout out of the 9mm Ruger SP101 that I briefly owned as well. Very surprising!
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
"If I get to select the factory loads or else hand load the ammunition then .38 Special can make 9mm eat dirt. In both snubs and in longer barrels alike"

Which commercially availible .38Sp loads outperform the commercially available 9x19?
Buffalo Bore and Underwood are a good place to begin when seeking truly "meaningful" loads for those needing .38 Special performance.

An internet search may turn up on of those "People also ask ..." links

People also ask
Is .38 Special better than 9mm?

What is the most powerful 38 special ammo?

The answers that both of the links provided in the two above questions are just so much bunk.

Here's an thread I stuck up here on Smith & Wesson Forum a decade ago showing some factory loads and some handloads. Since that time I've also used the Underwood ammunition, finding similar performance to the Buffalo Bore loads.

Some .38 Special Chronograph Tests

I like bullet weight and .38 Special delivers meaningful performance with heavier bullets. I don't like lightweight bullets so eschew all the 9mm expanding bullet loadings that are touted to be so "high-tech" and "enhanced."
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:32 PM
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I use plain old 147gr 9x19 jhp for 292 ft-lbs out of the 637-2. It's adequate for my purposes.
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Old 08-02-2020, 03:09 PM
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Maybe you should try a Charter Arms .44 Special. A little larger, a little heavier, a much better factory grip, a much heavier caliber and less recoil. Or at least the felt recoil seems lighter to me.
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Old 08-02-2020, 03:18 PM
Loyaljeeper Loyaljeeper is offline
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I have never shot a 9mm j frame but I want to. One of my coworkers has a 940 and said he qualified on it one year and couldn’t stand the thought of shooting 50 rounds in one session ever again.

The energy of the 9mm is closer to 357 mag than it is to 38spl. I had a CA Pitbull in 40 and it reminded me of shooting a 357 j frame.

Last edited by Loyaljeeper; 08-02-2020 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 08-02-2020, 03:19 PM
JimCunn JimCunn is offline
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Who's that post directed to?
147gr 9x19 in 12oz 637-2 seems about ideal in all regards to me.
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Old 08-02-2020, 03:40 PM
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How may the energy of the 9mm be demonstrated to be closer to the .357 Magnum than it is to the .38 Special?
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:04 PM
Loyaljeeper Loyaljeeper is offline
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Quote:
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How may the energy of the 9mm be demonstrated to be closer to the .357 Magnum than it is to the .38 Special?
The average 9mm load produces about 325-350 Ft/lbs. in a Shield. There are million tests out there in these shields. That is about a close to a 2” revolver as we can get because we don’t measure the chamber with revolvers like we do semi-autos. Most 124-125 grain loads are clocking about 1100-1125 fps. out of a Shield which is exactly what the 125 grain loads from Winchester, Federal, and Remington are measuring in j frames. In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads.

Somewhat irrelevant, but SAAMI maximum pressure for both 357 mag and 9mm are almost the same at 34k to 35k.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Loyaljeeper View Post
The average 9mm load produces about 325-350 Ft/lbs. in a Shield. There are million tests out there in these shields. That is about a close to a 2” revolver as we can get because we don’t measure the chamber with revolvers like we do semi-autos. Most 124-125 grain loads are clocking about 1100-1125 fps. out of a Shield which is exactly what the 125 grain loads from Winchester, Federal, and Remington are measuring in j frames. In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads.

Somewhat irrelevant, but SAAMI maximum pressure for both 357 mag and 9mm are almost the same at 34k to 35k.

"In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads."

Yes, of course it is if a person deliberately chooses to limit himself to only the use of such loads in his 2-inch snub.

There's more to the .38 Special cartridge than such weak, watery loads just as there's more to .38 Special revolvers than only the snubs that current conventional wisdom wants.


38 Special +P 125 Grain Bonded Jacketed Hollow Point – Underwood Ammo

Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition


But wait! There's more!

How about a realistic 1000 plus feet per second with good heavy 158 grain bullets from out of 2-inch snub .38 Specials?

38 Special +P OUTDOORSMAN Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

38 Special +P 158 Grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point Gas Check – Underwood Ammo
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2020, 04:46 PM
JimCunn JimCunn is offline
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147gr 9mm from a 1-7/8" J-frame chronos about 950fps for roughly 295 ft-lbs of energy. Everyone can make their own comparisons with .38Sp and .357Mag out of a J-frame and decide for themselves.

From the second link in post #35,
Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo
125 gr. L.V. Jacketed Hollow Point (1,050 fps/M.E. 306 ft. lbs.)

So, about the same energy as a standard 147gr 9mm at 5 times the cost.

As an aside, if measured from the back of the chamber like a semi, the 1-7/8" j-frame measures 3.5".

Last edited by JimCunn; 08-02-2020 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 08-02-2020, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
"In a 38 spl, a 2” barrel is good for about 900 fps with 125gr loads."

Yes, of course it is if a person deliberately chooses to limit himself to only the use of such loads in his 2-inch snub.

There's more to the .38 Special cartridge than such weak, watery loads just as there's more to .38 Special revolvers than only the snubs that current conventional wisdom wants.
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I think the majority of us that have been around guns and ammo for decades, and have shot upwards of 500k rounds in our lifetime, stick with common manufacturers and well tested ammo; especially in defense ammo.

Well of course there are going to be exceptions. One being the 1400fps 9mm load from Buffalo Bore. Another being the 110gr 38spl +p+ from Super Vel that has blown up a 357 mag recently. I hate boutique ammo! I bought a box of Buffalo Bore 15 years ago and thought the performance was horrible. I wrote it off as a cheap lesson in life. It was an amateur mistake. And to me, the boutique ammo is for amateurs. If I can’t buy it by the case to test I don’t want it.

Last edited by Loyaljeeper; 08-02-2020 at 04:58 PM.
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  #38  
Old 08-02-2020, 05:03 PM
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To me deliberately limiting oneself is for amateurs.

Of course all is anecdotal that is posted on firearms forums. I shot my first .38 Special revolver in summer of 1968, have owned, shot, and handloaded for the cartridge since 1975.

Boutique ammunition that I have tested over the chronograph gave velocity averages that were adequately uniform and performance was satisfactory. I like to buy 'em for testing and for comparison with handloaded ammunition results, but prefer to "roll my own" when it comes to performance loads.
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:10 PM
Loyaljeeper Loyaljeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimCunn View Post
147gr 9mm from a 1-7/8" J-frame chronos about 950fps for roughly 295 ft-lbs of energy. Everyone can make their own comparisons with .38Sp and .357Mag out of a J-frame and decide for themself.

As an aside, if measured from the back of the chamber like a semi, the 1-7/8" j-frame measures 3.5".
I have followed your build and a few other 9mm j frame builds over the years.
I have been really tempted to do one myself. I picked up a 360j when they were cheap just for the build. If it weren’t for my agency being reluctant to allow modified weapons on duty, I would have done it. When I found the 357 Golden Saber cheap I bought a bunch. They were purposely loaded to replicate 9mm energy. We have tested upwards of 1100 fps in our j frames. The 38spl Golden Saber is a winner too.
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Old 08-02-2020, 05:16 PM
JimCunn JimCunn is offline
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"I think the majority of us that have been around guns and ammo for decades, and have shot upwards of 500k rounds in our lifetime, stick with common manufacturers and well tested ammo; especially in defense ammo".

Yup. Though since I've only been shooting handguns for seventy years, I can't claim to be experienced.

BTW, that 4th link gives 343 ft-lbs out of a 1-7/8 barrel vs 295 for a standard pressure 9mm. Again at only five times the cost. I think I will stay with the anemic 147gr 9mm.

I didn't start reloading .38Sp until 1965. I like them OK, and have only blown up one gun.

For me, a heavy standard pressure 9mm in an Airweight J-frame lightened to 12 oz with titanium cylinder is just about the perfect blend of power, weight, recoil, accuracy, eject/reload speed, and bullet expense.

Last edited by JimCunn; 08-02-2020 at 05:30 PM.
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