I am a big fan of Smith & Wesson. Over 50 years I have owned 6 S&W revolvers, 2 M&P 15 rifles and a TC black powder rifle. I have had no problems with any of their products until this 3 inch Mod 60 revolver that has been back six times for repair but it has not been fixed. It seems the cylinder and the yoke are not aligned properly and the firearm locks up. The last time I received it back from S&W it lasted only 30 rounds before becoming inoperable. I sent it back in a few days ago and am requesting a new revolver or a credit. Am I being unreasonable? I will never be able to rely on this Mod 60. This revolver has been far less reliable than any KelTec I have owned, and that’s saying something.

sounds reasonable.

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JAREDSHS
LEO(retired)

That's at least 3 more tries than I would have given them. Which dash number is it? Is it a particular variant that would be hard to replace or does it have other special features that make it desirable? If not, Model 60s of most stripes were made by the tens of thousands, so finding another one just like it (but working right) should be no problem.

Froggie

Yes, we need to know when it was made. Is it the latest model or an older gun?

The dash number and of course a photo would be interesting.

My old 60-7 has never given me a problem, but then it is an old revolver. Would probably be the last Smith I would part with.

Attached Images

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Over the last 50 years I’ve bought many S&W; probably over 100. I have had to send back three for repair. Two they immediately fixed the problem. The last one, my first “Performance Center” Semi-Auto they wouldn’t. Even after I wrote letters to the President and Firearms Director. I got a phone call to send it back again and the problem would be fixed. Again, they said it was in spec and would do nothing. I think I had a Customer Service clown that wanted to prove to me who was running the show. He did, and that’s unfortunate. I had to buy the parts and do repairs myself.

But that seems to be the norm in Customer Service with too many companies anymore. I just never thought I would see it at S&W. I hope you have better luck than I had.

Six times is ridiculous. No CS or QA department should ever allow that to happen.

As described, your situation -- while not unheard of -- is incredibly uncommon. Five tries to fix an issue and now attempting a sixth is downright odd, frankly, because if S&W has confirmed there's an issue but can't run it down and get it right pretty quickly, they lose more time and money paying shipping and setting workers one problem gun this many times versus scrapping it and offering you a replacement or credit.

Did you buy your Model 60 new?

I don't think you're unreasonable wanting to wash your hands of this problem and expecting S&W to make you whole -- from your telling, you've offered more than every chance.

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Pickpocket

Get your money back and buy a Kimber K6s.

Plus one on the Kimber! Love mine.

De Oppresso Liber

I'm in agreement also, but I don't know if they'll buy it back or offer you a new gun at a reduced price. I've seen the latter more than once here but not the former. Good luck.

I do not know what dash number the revolver is. I bought it new in 2012. I do anticipate that S&W will treat me fairly.

Unfortunately, so far S&W will not respond to voicemails or phone calls. I am through wasting time dealing with them. They will either replace the revolver or try to fix it again. If they try to repair it again, I am fairly confident it will be sent back a seventh time. Not a huge deal one way or the other. They can make the decision to deal fairly with a customer or not. If not, there are other firearms companies to buy from. I bought my first S&W revolver in 1963, and as of now, not sure when and if I will purchase another.

Roberto, I bought my first new S&W revolver in '65, and once in a great while needed to send one back for repair. They always took care of the issue to my satisfaction. With firearms manufacturers in general, I think it is sometimes the particular customer service person you happen to be dealing with. Six times back certainly seems excessive.

FWIW, Within the last several months, I sent a new Ruger back for issues. The second time back, I was polite, but requested that my concerns be referred to the repair department MANAGER. And if the revolver could not be properly repaired, it be replaced, or I be given credit toward another Ruger firearm. I soon received a telephone call from a very nice lady at Ruger to let me know Ruger would like to replace my revolver with another of my choice in the same caliber. I made my choice, and the new gun was at my FFL within about a week and a half. I continue to believe much depends on who you are dealing with, and/or who you can get through to, like a manager. I certainly understand the frustrations. Some of my more trying "Customer Service" experiences have been with SIG and Colt....

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NRA Life, COTEP 640

I have talked to several people and left two voicemails to a supervisor. The rep I spoke to yesterday morning said she would be back to me in the PM but she didn't. Not stellar customer service but I am not overly upset as I have had to deal with the likes of AT&T and Sears in the past. Thank you for your input.

My experience with S&W is that sometimes they fix it, sometimes they don't. Had the same experience in the 80s and last time I returned 2 recently made guns. I think if you pull the trigger and it fires it's within spec. Shame.

You haven't really said just what exactly is the problem or problems with your Model 60 that SW won't or can't fix. So far, all I have heard is "my car won't start and you better fix it." Did you put gas in it? Does it fail to ignite ammunition? Is the barrel rotated? Does it have a scratch on it? Is it out of time? Is it not accurate? Is the trigger broken? What ammunition are you using? Handloads? Has anybody but the factory been inside? Have you cleaned under the ejector star? A little more information might help with a meaningful conversation.

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Some collect art; I shoot it!

Basically, the cylinder will not pivot back in the frame. If it does, it is locked up. I appreciate the knowledge that members of this forum have, but I do not expect anyone here to be able to fix a problem that S&W is unable to solve with the revolver in hand. I created this post to try to ascertain if my situation is somewhat business as usual or is it an anomaly.

Having to seek assistance from the manufacturer six times is definitely not "normal". Since the factory has more than adequately shown that they are incapable of fixing the issue, perhaps a visit to a knowledgeable, trained gunsmith would be the next step?

A couple of ideas.......does "pivot back" mean it's hard to open and/or close the cylinder? If so, as a test, try removing the yoke screw (front sideplate screw) to see if that frees up the cylinder/yoke assembly. Perhaps the yoke screw or yoke button is damaged. In addition, shooting debris under the extractor can cause all sorts of problems with a gun that has very tight specs, particularly in the cylinder assembly.

Also, I'm wondering if there is too little end shake or "gauge" in the cylinder assembly, and if so, this could cause the gun to bind when it gets hot (components expand) during firing.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

The revolver is in the hopefully capable hands of S&W. I will send it back to them another 10 times before I seek my own gunsmith. Since I received the revolver back the fifth time, it has had 30 cartridges fired in it. Only 30 for it to again replicate the nagging problem. I have never, over a period of 55 years or so had a S&W revolver have ANY issue. That is why I am miffed at the issues I am having with this Mod 60. I do appreciate the willingness of members of this forum and their knowledge.

Once upon a time long ago in my 20s I spend about 6 or 7 years as a copy machine technician. In those days they were far more mechanical than currently. I was considered very good at it. I HATED intermittent problems or those that took time to develop. Hard to figure out sometimes when the problem is not a normal problem.

Not excusing anyone and understand your frustration

I was really good at fixing problems, but not so good at fixing customers. Finally it was off to the oil fields for more money and wide open cussing.

Well, S&W called me today and said that the weapon fired and meets specs and was dirty under the extractor. There is nothing they can do. They advised that I send to a gunsmith or some sort of professional gun cleaner. Keep in mind that I fired only 30 rounds through it after receiving it back from them in September. When I receive the revolver back I will take it apart and thoroughly clean every nook and cranny. I anticipate that the problem will reoccur, but who knows.

I am somewhat set back that this revolver is such a sensitive little thing. I do not have a positive feeling for S&W at this point. I sense they are blowing smoke. I guess I will trust my life to Glock, Springfield Armory, my S&W Mod 642 and my 48 year old S&W mod 36, but this mod 60 will be used only at the range.

What have their "repairs" entailed? Have they replaced the entire cylinder and yoke assemblies or just tinkered with the existing parts?

In past visits the cylinder, yoke, firing pin and misc screws have been replaced.

Debris under the extractor tying up the cylinder is nothing new and it is very common. People often seem to have a misconception that only semi-automatic pistols can jam, revolvers are always reliable. That simply is not an accurate statement. I've had revolver cylinders bind due to debris under the extractor, excess fouling and lead build up at the forcing cone, and ejector rods unscrewing themselves.

Revolvers are simple to load and simple to operate, but not necessarily simple to maintain.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Here's my $0.02 on the subject from two perspectives.

First, I had a Ruger SP101 with an improperly cut forcing cone. I sent it back to Ruger and they sent it back after adjusting the ejector star. They basically ignored the forcing cone and figured it was poorly timed. I knew what was going to happen as soon as I read what they did but tried it anyway. It leaded just as bad as before, so I sent it back again. This time I was told it would be escalated to a supervisor (rather than the trained monkey's who normally work on them I guess).

Two weeks later they called and said it was non repairable and offered me a replacement, or a refund if I could produce the receipt. I got stiffed on the shipping for the first return when Ruger's bean counters lost the receipt, so I opted for a new revolver. They didn't tell me that I would not get one until they did a new production run of them - about 4 months after I called to say "where's that replacement revolver" a month after they said they'd send me one.

I eventually got a replacement in November for a new revolver I bought in April. It was just ok and I traded it off along with some cash for a Model 17-3 and never regretted it.

The take-aways here are:

- skilled labor isn't what it used to be with gun manufacturers as they don't want to pay what it costs.

- customer service isn't what it used to be either and has slumped industry wide.

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Second, production and customer service issues aside, there is always the potential for some user issues.

For example, large colloidal ball powders - the bulk equivalents of canister powders like Win 296/H110 are very popular with companies that load .357 magnum ammo.

That's because these powders do produce maximum velocities in long barrel (6" to 8") revolvers. They'll produce about 100 fps more than a medium burn rate flake powder. They are also very quick and inexpensive to produce compared to a flake powder and that helps the bottom line.

More over they create a lot more recoil than a charge of medium burn rate flake pistol powder that might weigh half as much. Most shooters don't have a chronograph so they associate 30-40% more recoil at the same velocity with "more velocity". That becomes a marketing tool.

As noted above you might get another 100 fps in a 6" or 8" revolver, but in 4" revolver it's more like 50 fps and in a 2 1/2 or 3" .357 Mag revolver it's pretty much a wash - just 30-40% more recoil and no significant increase in velocity.

That marketing tool on the heavy recoil end also creates a marker for light recoiling loads. They use both lighter bullets, but just as importantly medium burn rate powders with much lighter charge weights.

Now...there's another downside to these colloidal ball powders. They produce a lot of partially burnt powder residue in the form of partially burnt powder grains that can end up under the ejector star.

What happens is that unburnt in the case, barrel, or cylinder, or powder that has just been blown back through the cylinder gap and landed somewhere on the revolver can end up falling on the ejector star during ejection.

The large grains (unlike soot from even a "dirty" flake powder like Unique) take up enough space under the ejector star that it sticks out far enough that the cylinder either cannot fit back in the frame, or fits tightly enough that it then jams against the frame.

I *do not* use colloidal ball powders in my .357 Magnum self defense loads. First the extra recoil and recovery needed delays a follow up shot, and second if you ever have to reload, you have a much higher than zero chance of not being able to complete the reload and being left with the equivalent of a 36 oz rock.

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So, provide some more detail on exactly how it is failing, what loads you are using, etc.

MANY years ago, I shot with a local revolver 'competitive' team. We shot 38 wadcutters once a week. I carried a toothbrush with me to clean under the extractor/ratchet after every thirty rounds..... We handloaded and, often, used some powders that left more residue than others.... If it wasn't the dirt, it was (as mentioned above) a loose cylinder/extractor plunger/pin that unscrewed itself (reverse thread in those days).
my 2-cents,
J.

Thank you very much for the information. I will take everything apart in the cylinder and extractor areas and thoroughly clean it. I will also check the ammo I am using. Hey, it could be human error. I like the Mod 60 a lot and can shoot it double action as well as any of my semi-autos with the possible exception of my 1911. My wife and I will be hiking in Grizzly country in Wyoming in June and would like to have it on my ankle.

Please tell me that your primary anti-grizzly firearm is not a 357 revolver strapped to your ankle.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Actually, first line of defense is bear spray. I do a lot of shooting but I do not hunt or kill animals. I would not shoot an animal unless absolutely necessary. I always carry and the weapon is on my ankle because that is the most comfortable way of carrying for me. I realize that ankle carry does not afford the quickest draw but the odds I would have to utilize the weapon are extremely low. Last year I hiked about 1000 miles with a handgun on my ankle.

I have always been an S & W guy, but I have come to the conclusion that nowadays Taurus turns out a better product at a lower price.

The problem is that right now and fo the foreseeable future, there aren’t any other revolvers available to replace it with at anywhere near the price originally paid for the problem gun.

I received my revolver back from S&W today. When, the service manager called me a week or so ago, she said that the Mod 60 was fine and that there was dirt under the extractor that was causing the issues. However, in the accompanying letter it stated that they cleaned the gun and REPAIRED THE YOKE. The revolver had 30 rounds through it since the prior service call and this trip to S&W and they have to repair the yoke. This is after the manager says it just needed cleaning. It looks like Smith & Wesson is just blowing smoke. They are not truthful and seem to be covering up for less than competent repair folk. I am very disappointed in the company and will not buy any other product. Their dealings with me do not reach appropriate ethical standards.

Sorry to hear about this ongoing problem with the model 60, and with Customer Service. Current day service techs, for the most part, are not fitters or gunsmiths, but are accustomed to just replacing components of the gun in an effort to solve problems described by gun owners.

As I indicated in my previous post, I'm wondering if there is inadequate gauge, or you could call it adequate "end shake" in the cylinder/yoke assembly to accommodate normal expansion of these components during firing. If there is not adequate space provided between the end of the yoke barrel and the bearing surface inside the cylinder cavity, then the gun may dry fire and open and close normally when cold, but bind up when it becomes hot (or dirty) during use. If this is the problem, any competent gunsmith could resolve the issue quickly and successfully.

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Roberto, it is important to understand that unburned powder debris can and does get under the extractor - IF - you do NOT have the barrel pointed UP as you extract the empty cases.

Try this as a new habit - pointing the barrel up and only extracting empty cases at that time. See if that doesn't cure it.

I speak from 30 years of revolver shooting.

When the barrel is not pointed up, unburned powder falls under the extractor with regularity.

I own two other S&W revolvers that I have shot more and have not had the extractor issue once. This Mod 60 has had this issue six times supposedly.

My question I pose is that if my problem really is dirt under the extractor, why are they always replacing or repairing parts?

Also, I always have the barrel turned up when I extract spent cases. It seems to work better that way.

PS. I will go out to the range today and see if I can put 100 rounds through the gun successfully.

I went to the range and only managed to shoot 20 rounds when the revolver locked up. I could not push the cylinder back in the frame. I went home and looked at the gun and found some unburned powder kind of jamming out the works. I cleaned the unburned powder and residue away and the revolver worked just fine. I also noticed that the yoke fit in the frame better than it seemed to prior to the last visit to Massachusetts. Therefore the yoke "repair" took place but the problem with the revolver has to be classified as user error. I take back my prior remarks and am absolutely not against buying S&W products. Sorry for wasting peoples time on the forum.

Hey, **it happens. Don’t worry about it. Now go and shoot it like there is no tomorrow.

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Pine_Worker
Ex-LEO, NRA Life

Looks like ammo problem. I can go through couple hundred round of my reloads without any noticeable junk under ejector. Just bring old toothbrush with you to the range and brush under ejector every few cylinders.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Glad it seems sorted out and you've kept us updated.

More than a few of us have goose-chased an issue in real time on the forum -- good exercise for all.

I agree with iouri: have a look at your ammo; be it factory or reload, it's unusual to have detritus and/or unburned powder so consistently get under the extractor and tie things up. Time for a switch.

And indeed, keep a nylon brush handy to brush things out during a range session -- I do this and use a bore snake through the charge holes and bore, and a quick CLP wipe down, on the lane, immediately after finishing a session. Makes the big cleans at home easier.

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Pickpocket

All of this is education for us and what to watch out for. Far from a waste of time. Glad to discuss any problems. I had a reloading problem and the good people here worked with me on it and traced it to some lead that somehow got into my sizing die. That's not supposed to happen. But with everybody's help, I found the problems and after three years of frustration, fixed it.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"