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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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Old 03-27-2021, 02:06 PM
PeteC PeteC is offline
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Default Model 19-P front sight, opinions please!

I have a Model 19-P with an unusual front ramp sight. I am wondering if it was a factory option, or gunsmith modification. The gun has been to Europe and back and has the corresponding stamps (German, and maybe Belgian proofs). The sight looks like a normal ramp-base front sight, but with a slot cut in the center and remnants of white or yellow paint inside the slot.

S/N AWFxxx which dates to about 1987-ish according to the SCSW Appendix B.

So far my score in the Smith & Wesson "Original of Not" guessing game is 0 for two, so I am going to leave this one for other people, . TIA for your comments.

edit: to correctly identify the Model as a Model 19-P
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Last edited by PeteC; 03-27-2021 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:23 PM
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Looks 100% like a home-made job to me. Also, if this is a Model 19, where is the adjustable rear sight??? See the pic of an unaltered 19 below.

John

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Old 03-27-2021, 02:41 PM
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The front sight is not factory. That looks more like a M10, 13, or 586 to me.

Edit - There always seems to be another oddball S&W I've never seen or heard of. Apparently the front sight is factory. I sit corrected.
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:44 PM
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Hi PeteC,

It is a Mod 19-P made for Peru, the front sight is correct.
Best regards fom Germany
Paul
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Old 03-27-2021, 02:59 PM
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These turn up from time to time, but are relatively uncommon versions of the Model 19. Fixed rear sight, like a Model 13, front sight has a groove with yellow paint, much like the S&W 469/669 front sight.
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Old 03-27-2021, 03:28 PM
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@PALADIN85020: Thanks for the awesone pic! Yes, and I was actually looking for one with the standard sights online, but the prices were out of my range,

@regmag-621: Thank you from the still chilly Midwest This must have been an overrun from the 19-P shipped to Europe, so I thought it might be a target shooting mod. From the "WISCHO" mark, Germany, but I do not see a German "Eagle over N" nitro proof mark, or a house mark I recognize. I think there may be a Belgian Proof mark. I will try to take a pic but they are not well visible.

@standsdds: Yes, like a model 13 with a shrouded extractor.
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Old 03-27-2021, 04:20 PM
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Default Model 19-P Proof Marks

As far as I know, WISCHO is or was a German Importer, and most of the guns with that mark I have seen also had the German Eagle "Nitro" proof, and a Munich or Cologne house mark. This one does not have those.

There is a P and a bar on the underside of the barrel, the WISCHO mark, some I do not recognize, and what might be a Belgian Mark.

I do know that it was re-imported to the US along with a few guns that were well out of my reach, and included a few target pistols. It has been fired, and shows signs of handling, but does not look like it has been carried in a holster, or not much.
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Model 19-P front sight, opinions please!-m19-p-jpg   Model 19-P front sight, opinions please!-m19p_proof1-jpg   Model 19-P front sight, opinions please!-m19p_proof2-jpg   Model 19-P front sight, opinions please!-m19p_proof3-jpg  

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Old 03-27-2021, 05:56 PM
Walter Rego Walter Rego is offline
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I have a Model 31-1 in .32 S&W Long with WISCHO markings. It has Belgian proof marks in several locations. It was in new condition in the factory box and the box and paperwork didn't have any unusual markings. I figure it may have been purchased by an American serviceman at his Rod & Gun Club while stationed overseas and brought back here.
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Old 03-27-2021, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protocall_Design View Post
The front sight is not factory. That looks more like a M10, 13, or 586 to me.

Edit - There always seems to be another oddball S&W I've never seen or heard of. Apparently the front sight is factory. I sit corrected.
I was confused too. Never say never with S&W!

John
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Old 03-27-2021, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Rego View Post
I have a Model 31-1 in .32 S&W Long with WISCHO markings. It has Belgian proof marks in several locations. ...
Do the Belgian marks look like the ones in my pic? I am only guessing it is a Belgian mark, for some reason it is stamped in two places.

The only reference I found is a Belgian Proof called "Definitive mark foreign weapons", similar to my pic, but hard to see.

edit: actually in three places - barrel, frame, and cylinder which makes more sense (on the cylinder face it is harder to see)

Last edited by PeteC; 03-29-2021 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 03-28-2021, 03:29 PM
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The front sight is correct. These were for a Peruvian police contract. When the Peruvian police representative was asked why he didn't just purchase Model 13's he replied, "Sometimes my men like to use their guns as clubs and I don't want to have to deal with bent ejector rods." That's the way I heard the story and I'm sticking to it.

These were from 1987 and the Product Code was 100727. The Peruvians cancelled the contract before all were delivered. Appx 1500 guns went to Peru and 1200 went to WISHCO, S&W's European distributor, There may have been 300 or so released through domestic distributors. The serial prefixes used were mainly AWD, AWE and AWF, however a few with prefix AVZ have been found. These guns were equipped with Pachmayr Gripper grips.



Adios,

Pizza Bob
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Old 03-28-2021, 03:42 PM
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There's currently one for sale on line. The front sight is correct for that model.
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Old 03-28-2021, 03:59 PM
CLASSIC12 CLASSIC12 is offline
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I am always amazed by the knowledge on this forum.

I saw one for sale here in Switzerland several weeks ago and was wondering about it.







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Old 03-28-2021, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLASSIC12 View Post
I am always amazed by the knowledge on this forum.

I saw one for sale here in Switzerland several weeks ago and was wondering about it.
Nice Plum Color on the barrel of that one, I read that happened to some batches of parts over time!


Any idea about the rest of the marks? I think we have identified the Liege Foreign Firearm mark, and there are two more. Star over something, and P over a bar.
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Old 03-28-2021, 05:05 PM
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Per Roy Jinks, the model 19-P were a special order for the preruvian Federal police. 3,000 were ordered, yet the order was canceled after 1,500 were delivered. Most of the rest were shipped to W. Germany. A few were sold to U.S. dealers.

Several years back I advertised the one I had for sale here at the forum. I had an "I'll Take It'" with in five minutes of posting the add. The sale price may have been low, but it was 2 1/2 above what a normal high condition M-19 would have sold for.
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Old 03-28-2021, 05:06 PM
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These 19-Ps are quite uncommon as most did not make it back to the States. This is one of those 'must haves' for the advanced Model 19 collector. Congrats on a fine piece of American/European/South American history. A strong and capable revolver to be sure.
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Old 03-28-2021, 06:06 PM
Walter Rego Walter Rego is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteC View Post
Do the Belgian marks look like the ones in my pic? I am only guessing it is a Beldian mark, for some reason it is stamped in two places.

The only reference I found is a Belgian Proof called "Definitive mark foreign weapons", similar to my pic, but hard to see.
Here are the markings found on my Model 31-1. The proof mark that resembles the US "Flaming Bomb" mark with the L is the Liege proof mark. It is repeated on the bottom of the frame just forward of the trigger guard and also on the rear face of the cylinder. One of the other stamps is a date code. The gun shipped in November of 1986. Hard to tell by looking at the stamp but I think it is supposed to be a cursive, underlined z which would be 1987 and makes sense.

The underlined P on PeteC's gun would be 1988.

Here is a link to the Belgian date codes:
http://www.hunting.be/wp-content/upl...roof-Marks.pdf
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Old 03-28-2021, 06:15 PM
PeteC PeteC is offline
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Thanks! Looks like mine is dated 1988, which makes sense if it was an overrun from an order manufactured in 1987.

edit: the underlined P stands for 1988, so it looks like it was shipped to Europe as part of the overrun from the Peruvian Police contract.

Last edited by PeteC; 03-28-2021 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 03-28-2021, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmoose View Post
These 19-Ps are quite uncommon as most did not make it back to the States. This is one of those 'must haves' for the advanced Model 19 collector. Congrats on a fine piece of American/European/South American history. A strong and capable revolver to be sure.
Thanks! At least it is not the Franken gun or a former Gunsmith special I was half suspecting it to be when I saw the unusual sights.

To be honest it was my consolation prize after seeing prices for decent examples of 19-3 and -4 Models climb past my pain threshold. It had been sitting unsold for a while, and I figured I should give it a home. I will treat it with all due respect. It has been fired but well taken care of before I got it.

The rubber grips it came with appear to have been the original ones for a change. This is ironic, since my goal last year was to replace my "whatever is comfortable" grips with more correct versions. I guess it's safe to put them back on the gun now, and save the nice Cocobolo grips I was going to use for something else



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Old 03-28-2021, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old bear View Post
Several years back I advertised the one I had for sale here at the forum. I had an "I'll Take It'" with in five minutes of posting the add. The sale price may have been low, but it was 2 1/2 above what a normal high condition M-19 would have sold for.
You mean one of the guns that went to Peru, or one of the overrun that went to Europe???
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Old 03-28-2021, 07:18 PM
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Over run gun that shipped to West Germany.
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Old 03-29-2021, 06:18 PM
Walter Rego Walter Rego is offline
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I find it interesting that Peru chose to special order a Model 19 with fixed sights. I get that the Peruvian Police wanted the shrouded ejector rod, but it seems that they could have ordered the Model 581 which was the fixed sight L frame and geared towards the police market that wanted a fixed sight .357. It had plenty of barrel mass to encourage miscreants in lieu of the application of a sap. The 581 was discontinued around the time the Model 19-P's were ordered.

Perhaps there were no more available, or the Peruvians didn't want to have to purchase all new leather gear, or maybe they just liked the lighter K frames.

Last edited by Walter Rego; 03-29-2021 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 03-29-2021, 07:06 PM
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By 1987 the Peruvian Police (or some of them) already had a Model 10-7 for years, and may have had a few bent extractor rods in that time. Good chance they just wanted an upgrade to a .357, just like some US police departments. The Model 19 had a long track record and a name as an export, like the Model 10. The 581 did not. A business does not offer a repeat customer a product about to be discontinued, if you want them to come back for more. The part about using it as a club may just be a salesman's story that gets repeated because it sounds good.

Last edited by PeteC; 03-29-2021 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 03-29-2021, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Rego View Post
...
Perhaps there were no more available, or the Peruvians didn't want to have to purchase all new leather gear, or maybe they just liked the lighter K frames.
Also (I had to look this up) S&W was in the midst of some reliability problems which led to a recall of the L-frames in 1987. The hammer and hammer nose were replaced, reworked frames got a "M" overstamp, there was a dash 2 engineering change to the L-frame, etc... the K-frame Model-19 may have seemed like a safe bet.
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Old 03-29-2021, 11:47 PM
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PeteC, when I got my two, both a 2 1/2 and 4inch, they came from the factory courtesy of the sales manager at that time. He related the story about using the guns as clubs when I asked why they didn't just buy Model 13's. He was the one handling the sale so I believe him. In any case they are neat revolvers. All my very best my Friends, Joe.
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Old 03-30-2021, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
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PeteC, when I got my two, both a 2 1/2 and 4inch, they came from the factory courtesy of the sales manager at that time. He related the story about using the guns as clubs when I asked why they didn't just buy Model 13's. He was the one handling the sale so I believe him. In any case they are neat revolvers. All my very best my Friends, Joe.
At least you did not have to play detective with Belgian proof marks to find out what you had, lol.

The one I could not identify is actually the mark of the Liege Inspector at the time. The inspector's marks were a star over a capital letter. In this case a "Y", with the left upper part missing. A Y corresponds to the mark of the Liege inspector at the time.

Just to verify the front sight, do yours look like mine, with a slot painted yellow or white?
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Old 03-30-2021, 08:14 AM
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PeteC, yes it does, yellow.
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Old 03-30-2021, 08:54 AM
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The 19-P was a fixed sight version of the 19. That is the correct front sight, and it was yellow. The first one I ever saw was at Frankonia Waffen in Darmstadt, Germany (south of Frankfurt) in about 1989.
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Old 04-03-2021, 09:11 PM
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Which design change is the 19-P is it -5, -6 or ?
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Old 04-03-2021, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
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Which design change is the 19-P is it -5, -6 or ?
Good question. It was made in 1987, so I assume 19-5. Same year that Tompkins bought the company.

According to the SCSW, the 19-6 started in 1988.
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Old 04-05-2021, 01:04 PM
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As an aside IIRC there was a run of 3" versions made in the early mid 70's as well....(look like a blue 65-5 Ladysmith).

Also, the likely reason SW marked them Model 19P is that the Model 19 frame is longer in the yoke cut to mate to the ejector rod shroud,
The model 13 frame is shorter in the yoke cut so would not mate cosmetically perfect to an ejector rod shroud .

Last edited by Engine49guy; 04-05-2021 at 01:08 PM.
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