I carry a 44 mag. 329PD in the woods in Northern Mich. In the cleared area around our farm I like to carry a 340M&P for the lightness and ease of carry. I know it is not an ideal weapon for black bear (which I'll probably never see there). But, what particular 357 cal. ammo would you recommend as a "last ditch" defence against a black bear. Yes, I know I'll probably never have trouble with one. Yes, I know that the 44mag. is better. But, any thoughts on the best 357 load for a light j frame?

I carry a 44 mag. 329PD in the woods in Northern Mich. In the cleared area around our farm I like to carry a 340M&P for the lightness and ease of carry. I know it is not an ideal weapon for black bear (which I'll probably never see there). But, what particular 357 cal. ammo would you recommend as a "last ditch" defence against a black bear. Yes, I know I'll probably never have trouble with one. Yes, I know that the 44mag. is better. But, any thoughts on the best 357 load for a light j frame?

I live in what's been known as "Bear Canyon" since the Spanish Colonial days. Like you, I recognize that black bears are unlikely to trouble me (statistically, I have a much better chance of being struck by lightning than pestered by a black bear as I hike up the canyon), but because of their presence I load a 180-grain hardcast handload in my .357 Magnum. At 1230 fps from my 3" barrel, my handload is faster than the commercial ones available, but the penetration should be adequate with any 180-grainer.

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Speer GoldDot 135gr. or CorBon 125CX
Terry

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Terry
SWCA, SWHS, IWLA, NRA

I'm not sure anyone ever did any good research on your question. As Erich says, you need penetration. The best factory loaded 357 bear bullets are the 180 grain HP game bullets, Winchester makes it, probably others do too. Or you can hand load them using bullets from other makers. Velocity is going to be very important, which is the part I am referencing with my research comment, these big game bullets in a snubby J frame 357. Again I would nod in affirmation to the 1200 fps or better velocity. The 170 grain Keith bullet, 10:1 lead-tin, is one of your better choices.
I would not bet on factory ammo designed with man stopping in mind.

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Geoff. Since 1960.

Terry, you're not serious, are you?

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I agree with Erich. 180 grn hardcast. federal makes a nice shooting round for me.

I think it will work.

+1 for the Federal 180 hardcast load. HP jacketed bullets wouldn't give the penetration necessary to reach the vitals of a black bear, or penetrate inside a black bears skull. HP jacketed bullets would be much better for any two-legged varmints, but not for a bear encounter.

Erich, I'm loading TVB 190s. Care to divulge what you're using to hit 1230 from a 3 inch barrel?

Terry would blind them first with his flash, then sneak up on them for a behind-the-ear shot with his gold dots.

them photographers are tricky!

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After you scorch all the hair off of them with the first shot, it will be easier to penetrate

VG - I use the max loading of Alliant Blue Dot for 180-grainers with TVB (also works with Penn ) truncated conical hardcasts, a standard small pistol primer, and a firm crimp with the Lee FCD.

I'll let you look up the charge weight yourself since I don't usually give such out on a public forum - not sure if Alliant's data is back online, but it's all over the place.

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No problem. I'm quite certain I can find it. Thanks.

I'll load some up tomorrow to try over the weekend.

I would want the heaviest bullet possible, and which is designed for the deepest penetration.

I wouldn't overlook Remington's 165 grain JHP, designed for deer hunting with a .357.

In the one case I know of where a .357 was used on a grizzly, it was a 158 grain JHP service round, fired by a game warden. One bullet, in the chest, I think, killed the bear. The other five, fired from a M-66 S&W, went wild when the warden panicked. The 6th shot saved him.

Massad Ayoob has told about the NYC cop who had to kill a polar bear with a Model 10, using lead service loads. He said that they were lead HP's. I think the standing bear was hit once in about the "sticking place". It went down at once, dead. It had attacked a man at a zoo.

Hornady's JHP bullets have a good rep for penetration. People who've used them on pigs and alligators were quite satisfied, if that may help.

For the record, black bear attacks have been fairly frequent, and a bear attack that has predation as the motive, is most often done by a black bear. And polar bears often stalk people when they can.

The Indian Sloth Bear also has a bad reputation, but I gather that you will not be in their range. Good thing, too. Indian gun laws suck!

A .357 is a lot better than our forebears had. Ever seen, "Clan of the Cave Bear"? A brown bear took off a man's head. A movie, sure, but the guy killed, had it been real, would not have been the first man to lose his head over a blonde chick. (He was trying to impress Ayla, played by Darryl Hannah.) (The young Ayla was played by Nicole Eggert.)

Anyway, movies aside, a bear can really do that, so study their anatomy and aim well.

T-Star

To be safe from such attacks simply frequent ONLY national parks where those in charge assure us that no animals ever attack humans and therefore you are safe in being completely defenseless, as the law demands.

Terry knows that he does not have to stop or outrun the bear, but only run faster than who he is with.

Some of you guys seem so fixated on your "Hollow Points" you don't seem to understand that the temporary cavity that stops high-strung humans will be fatally (for you) less effective on a grossly muscled species like a bear.

To stop a bear, you have to break a major bone, disrupt the well protected spine or brain, or puncture a major vessel and keep running until the animal bleeds out. That requires DEEP penetration, and that means a solid!

We all know the more a slug spreads out and dissipates it's energy, the less deep it will penetrate. Hollow points are a big no-no for relatively slow handgun slugs (less than 1500fps) used on large animals.

I would recommend a healthy dose of either 2400 or H110 behind a hardcast 160-170 grain SWC.

Buffalo Bore has some of the very best heavy 357 loads. Google them for their web site.
John

Keith is absolutely RIGHT ON! I have only killed one Black Bear but have some personal experience with them. I have also been in on autopsies of about thirty-five of them. They are just as Keith states - scary muscled with big bones for their size. You need to BREAK BONE to stop a bear. When hurt they can be very bad medicine.

National Parks produce most of the black bear attacks in this country (they lose their fear of humans). A "little" two hundred pound bear (there are records of some exceeding 500 lbs!) is EXTREMELY strong - amazing what they can do. They are amazingly fast when aroused - they can hit 30 mph in about three steps!

Dale53

Corbon makes a hard cast load specifically for bear defense in the .357.

When I bought mine, the corbon ad said:

"This load is designed specifically to keep you off a bear's menu".

I carry a .41 mag most of the time, but when I don't, it is a .357 loaded with these hard casts (I can't remember if they are 180 grns or 200 grns).

Worth your looking into for a single box or two.

During the Pa bear season, I carry a 357 mag rifle loaded with 180 grain Corbons. I also hapopen to load my 340M&P with the same thing instead of the usual 135 Speer SB load.
The 180 Corbon dropped a 160lb 9 point buck at 58 yards with one shot last year, so I think with a well aimed shot of two, it would do the same with a bear. Unscientific, I know, but it's what I'm going with.