Hello all, a friend of mine has a 325 nite guard that I suggested for him as a CCW gun. He bought it new over the summer, and recently he's been expereincing lite hits on the primers resulting in a failure to fire. It doesn't happen all the time just once in a while. I checked the spring screw under the grips and also played with the lock.
Have any of you had similar issues? Can anyhone offer any other ideas as to what it might be? He's really trying to avoid sending it in if at all possible, thanks!

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Hello all, a friend of mine has a 325 nite guard that I suggested for him as a CCW gun. He bought it new over the summer, and recently he's been expereincing lite hits on the primers resulting in a failure to fire. It doesn't happen all the time just once in a while. I checked the spring screw under the grips and also played with the lock.
Have any of you had similar issues? Can anyhone offer any other ideas as to what it might be? He's really trying to avoid sending it in if at all possible, thanks!

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Sie vis pacem parabellum

i will look to other more knowledgable members to tell us if this is a good repair or not but i have had good luck just taking out the mainspring and bending it then reinstall. (bend it more in the direction you want it to go ) iirc they work well when they are just about flat before reinstallation. this has worked for me but you might want to ask around and or check out the gunsmithing section, particularly since you are working with a new gun.
Regards,
Rich

Try a piece of hard leather between the spring, and adjustmment screw.

Call these guys and order a firing pin. Your problems will be solved.
http://www.apextactical.com/
Recent S&W firing pins are very short to meet California drop standards. Misfires aren't unusual. An extended firing pin is the cure.

+1

Cylinder & Slide also makes one, available through them, Midway USA, or Brownells.

I have a 65 that occasionally would fail to light a primer (not very often) and the second hit would always work. Changed the factory firing pin to a C&S and problem solved.

Changing the frame mounted firing pin is very easy and it takes longer to remove the sideplate than to change the pin. You do not even have to remove the hammer or any other part of the firing control system, just pull out the firing pin retaining pin, remove the old pin, insert the new pin, and reinsert the retaining pin. Then replace the sideplate.

I did a side by side comparison of pin protrusion between older pistols with the hammer-mounted pin and my M65 and the 65's shortness was obvious to the naked eye. The Cylinder and Slide extended firing pin does nothing but restore firing pin protrusion on frame mounted models to equal that of the hammer mounted firing pin models.

Thank you very much guys, we did look at the firing pin today. We snapped the weapon and looked at how far the pin protruded and then pushed on the back of the pin with a small screwdriver and the firing pin protruded almost 1/2 again a far. I'm not terribly familair with the newer Smiths, i know older ones with the hammer mounted FP. I'll advise him to check into a replacement one and see if that fixes the issue, once again thanks!

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Be careful swapping out the firing pin on a NightGuard. They are not steel, nor are the recoil plates. You may actually damage the revolver frame by replacing the alloy pin with a steel one. Just a caveat.

Personally, I'd send it back to Smith. It'll be fixed free under the excellent warranty. Why not have it done correctly?

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Tom

Is this the firing pin you are referring to?
http://apextactical.com/hp_zencart/index.php?main_page=...u9c6mosned4nisn76c81

Will this pin work on a MIM gun?

Nframe357, if you want a stock spring E-Mail me with address and I will send you one. I take it that the spring has a rib on it? I have one of the old type if you want.

Yes, allglock. That's it. For a long time I used the C&S version with no problems, but they have such a bad rep among competitive shooters for breakage that I switched to Apex. The nice thing about the Apex pin is that dry firing is allowed, while forbidden with C&S. All my newer revolvers have light springs. Without aftermarket pins they often don't go bang. With Apex or C&S they're 100%. Here are the pins: C&S on the left, Apex in the middle, stock right.

Do you know why Apex uses a reduced power firing pin spring?
Also do you have a picture of the newest S&W shorter firing pin?

My dad had a problem with his new Mod357 41 mag and sent it back to S&W, they changed the firing pin - no further problems have occurred since the upgrade. Joe

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

The one on the right is a recent .494 S&W. The Apex is .503. The C&S pins are much longer at about .511, but don't function any better than the Apex. I have no idea why they use a different spring. Works, though. S&W can usually correct a misfire, but if you want lighter springs with a 45acp revolver you've gotta have a pin.

The picture on the right is not the newest. I have a new 442 and it appears to come to a point at the end of the firing pin. I have older Smiths, that look like the one on the right.
Also, can MIM and non-MIM firing pins be interchanged??

Far as I know the frame-mounted pins are all interchangeable. They're not MIM, though. S&W was using Ti. Don't know if they still are. The Apex has the color of schedule 8, but I'm not sure. The C&S is an unknown steel, but appears stainless.

Thank you, I'll run this by my friend and see how we wants to procede.

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Can anyone else confirm this?

Hi guys,

It's been a while since I have been able to post.I have been told by my office manager that I'm not allowed to touch the computer. So I'm chained to the bench...

I wanted to throw my two cents in- as far as firing pins go.
Current factory firing pins are made out of titanium and have a surface treatment to resist abrasive wear. They typically measure somewhere around .483-.485 in length. They usually have a more conical or pointed tip as opposed older versions which were steel and had a more rounded tip as pinkymingeo's pic shows(Thanks for the comparative pic btw). The light weight and shorter pins were designed to increase the chances of passing the CA drop testing. Unfortunately for us, it can also compromise reliability. For various reasons, the lightweight Sc/Ti guns will tend to experience the ignition problems more often than heavier all steel counterparts( I will try to post an explanation either on my website or the shopping cart in the near future)

While I do not like to turn away potential sales, if you are not experiencing light hits there should not be any reason to replace your factory pin with mine or any other. "If it ain't broke don't try to fix" it seems an appropriate addage.

So why did I design a new firing pin and why does it come with a spring? What is mine made out of?
In a nutshell, I designed my pin because of the reliability issues experienced with the factory short pins and because of the demands of competition revolver action work. Most of the competition revolvers I send out are running anywhere between 4 and 5 lbs on the DA using Federal primed handloads. .495 inch or longer pins seem to be the threshold for reliable ignition in these guns. Furthermore, I and other competitors like to dry practice. In the factory pins, forward travel is limited by the rear wall of the retaining pin cut. This prevents damage to the firing pin bushing, the f/p spring and the pin itself if the hammer falls on an empty chamber. My pins are fashioned to stop in the same manner. Hitting a primer or a snap cap will obviously prolong the service life of all the parts as it prevents or at least greatly reduces metal to metal contact.
My pins are made from 17-4ph stainless steel round stock and heat treated for appropriate wear and abrasion resistance. This material has excellent machining and heat treating properties and has been used for 1911 firing pins for well over a decade. The purplish brown color is due to the heat treating. It also ensures that I don't inadvertently send out a part that is not properly hardened.
I must point out that any pin can break, and I have seen a number of factory pins break/chip as well as aftermarket pins. But to be fair, it may be a numbers game. There are a lot more factory and C&S pins out there than mine-so the failure rates may in fact be less than one percent for either of those. To date we've only had one reported breakage.
My pin is supplied with a reduced power f/p return spring to improve ignition in guns where action work has been performed and lighter mainspring settings are used. I find this very helpful in competition revolvers where we are trying to eek out every last bit of performance.My firing pin will work fine with the factory spring.

Thanks Randy for the additional info!
I just replaced my new 442s Short Ti pin (.483) with your steel (.499) firing pin. I feel like I went back in time. I have a model 042 from the early 90s and it has a factory steel pin with what appears to be the same protrusion as your pin. I felt better about it until you mentioned you had one breakage...Well I will give your pin a try and see what happens.
Keep us updated.

No problem allglock!

I feel the need to be honest when it comes to parts carring my name.
Any part made and designed by man can fail.

That said there are roughly 500 of my pins being used in competition guns worldwide. Most of these guns see daily dry fire and perhaps as much as 1000 rounds per week. So please let me know if you experience any problems!

Randy Lee;
I don't have a "pin problem" (as yet) but sure appreciate GOOD information from one who KNOWS.

Thank you, kind sir. When I next buy a firing pin, you can rest assured that it'll be yours as a tiny "thanks" to your candor. I'll also recommend yours to any who needs one.

Dale53

Dale53,

Thank you for your very kind words. And I appreciate all the support I have on this forum!

I also hope that you never need my firing pin.

Best,

Randy

Randy,

Is this lighter & shorter CA factory pin the reason for unreliable ignition in newer S&W .45 ACP revolvers when loose rounds are fired without moon clips? I know several members here have reported this problem (differing from earlier .45 ACP S&W revolvers in this regard) in several threads, but I have not followed up to find if something approaching a consensus explanation was ever reached.

This decrease in reliability with non-moonclipped rounds (along with another factor--meow!) has made me hesitant to purchase any of the newer lightweight .45 revolvers that otherwise have had my interest.

If you have any insight on this, I would appreciate hearing it. And thanks for your informative post above.

I believe it's related to the increased headspace tolerances as well as chamber depth. The firing pin will contribute to light hits without question. I typically warn against shooting non moonclipped ammunition in the modern 625s as the headspace can be on the ragged edge and can cause primers to unseat from their pockets. This can cause gases to blast back against the firing pin bushing and result in cavitation(pitting).

My friends 325 has issues with ammo in moonclips, not loose ammo. He's ordering 2 new FP's from Apex.Personally I feel bad, I'm the one who recommended this weapon to him, and now he's having to replace the firing pin because S&W is too cheap to make commie fornia only models and then models for the rest of the free states. It's ridiculous to spend over $800 on a weapon that you need to replace parts on because it's unreliable from the factory! Don't get me wrong I'm a S&W guy through and through but I'll NEVER buy a newer model S&W, period.

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Nframe,

I wish your friend didn't have to order my pins.
I know several people who have experienced light strikes with their new out of the box revolvers. Most of them are LE and carry them as backup guns, but their trust in the guns were entirely shaken when the guns went "click" instead of "bang". I agree with you whole heartedly at the absurdity of owning a $800.00 paperweight that could cost someone their life.

While I know that Smith would take the gun back and make it right, this issue is entirely avoidable.

I, also, cannot fathom selling a new revolver that doesn't work reliably. Companies all over corporate America complain about the fear of lawsuits but the fundamental purpose of a small revolver is self defence. How does a defective revolver fit in that plan? Huh?!!! Since the solution is so simple (Heck! They have known what makes a revolver work for a 100 years). Just apply that. Is that so hard? Must be...

On the other hand, back in the Seventies I was told by my very competent gunsmith to ALWAYS put five hundred rounds through a revolver or pistol before you use it for sefl defense. I rather think that is good advice.

Dale53

Honestly his was the first case that I'd heard of and when I got answers on this thread I was shocked and disappointed. All of my S&W revolvers are the older hammer mounted firing pin models so I've never had any issues like this before. I like the M&P series of autos but a new S&W revolver is out of the question for me now, "click" when you're supposed to hear a bang is bad juujuu!
I'm glad that there are companies out there to help fix these issues instead of just leaving the owners stuck.

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At first, I was horrified and disgusted that Smith went to the MIM parts and FMFP. I was sure that this was one of the signs of the apocalypse.

But after I began to work with it, the advantages became apparent. The frame mounted pins have allowed me to drop the DA trigger pulls down far lower that I could have ever achieved. The new design has allowed many of my customers who have hand injuries or arthritis to be able to shoot- whether for defense or recreation.

And perhaps Smith is monitoring this thread. I am a hopeful optimist. :-)

I was afraid of this. Thank you very much for your response.

Nframe357,
I sympathize with you completely on the preposterousness of this situation.

I, for one, am NOT going to quit buying any Smith that fits in with my plans. However, I WILL vet it thoroughly before entrusting my life to it or any other pistol or revolver.

This is really nothing new, in general. The Colt 1911 autos were notorious for not working out of the box. I have two and had them "built up" complete with new barrels, trigger jobs, ejection port remodel, and all and all. Now, they are near wonderful but LOOK AT THE EXPENSE.

With my new Smiths, I MAY have to add a fifteen dollar firing pin - no big deal. We are blessed to have the information from someone of the stature of Randy Lee to help us, also .

We don't have to like the situation, but the "Sky is not falling"!

Dale53

Thanks Dale53!

But I am not someone of stature! Actually I'm only 5'5" so perhaps I could be revolver-smurf.

I am very glad to find this thread. I have a 327 Night Guard that I intend to use for my truck/carry revolver. I took it to the range a week ago and had a number of FTFs when shooting FACTORY ammo double action(is there any other way?). I had not yet thought of the factory FP as the problem. I was focussing more on the fact of a scandium frame and titanium cylinder as the probable cause.

I will be buying Apex FPs( I don't use C&S products after some direct personal experience with the owner).

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Bob.
SWCA 1821