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Old 02-23-2009, 01:44 PM
RightWinger RightWinger is offline
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can you make a 617 into a .22 mag? can you make a 617 into a .22 mag? can you make a 617 into a .22 mag?  
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I was just curious, I have a 617-1 and would like to get a 6 shot .22 mag cylinder and drop it in, is this possible?
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:44 PM
RightWinger RightWinger is offline
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I was just curious, I have a 617-1 and would like to get a 6 shot .22 mag cylinder and drop it in, is this possible?
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:17 PM
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No. The .22 mag bullet (and case) is larger in diameter as well as length than a .22 LR.

Ruger made the "Single Six" with two interchangable cylinders, one for .22 LR and one for .22 mag, but the BARREL was sized for the .22mag. The barrel can be a little bigger than it needs to be, but not a little smaller.

If you were to do such a conversion on a S&W, you'd have to do the same as Ruger, I believe - start with a .22 mag gun, and then get a .22 LR cylinder.

Also beware that bad things can happen if you chamber a .22 LR in a .22 mag cylinder. Since the brass is smaller than the cylinder I.D., it can split when fired. Not good.

I've often wished that S&W would make a convertible .22 J-frame alloy snubbie with 2 cylinders, however. How cool would that be!
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:39 PM
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Um, JnBy, he said he'd like to get a .22 Magnum cylinder for his 617, which would give him a cylinder for each cartridge.
I think you misread his post.
I have a Model 17 made in the early 1990s: 6-inch barrel, blue, finger groove combat grips and wonderfully accurate.
I too have wondered about the feasibility of shipping it off to S&W to have it fitted with an auxiliary .22 Magnum cylinder.
Would S&W do this? Smith stopped production of the blued model, but a stainless steel .22 Magnum cylinder in a blue frame would certainly prevent the use of wrong ammunition!
Is this feasible, or do barrels made for the .22 Magnum have a different twist or groove diameter.
Anyone know?
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:53 PM
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I own a model 48 22mag, and I also have a model 17 22lr.

I did some measurements, and here is the info.

Model 17: barrel diameter is .222, cylinder throats are .223
Model 48: barrel diameter is .224, throat diameter is .225

As you can see, the barrel diameter of the 22 mag is larger, and if you were to run the 22mag bullet thru the 22lr barrel, the pressure would rise. Would it be too much to damage the firearm, or be dangerous, who knows? I do know that it was a common practice in years past to ream out the chamber on 22 lr single shot rifles to 22 mag, and I never heard of one blowing up, but don't know if a revolver would be strong enough to do the same thing.
I can't answer your question about the twist rate.
I am sure that S&W would not fit a mag cylinder to a 22lr revolver.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gatofeo:
Um, JnBy, he said he'd like to get a .22 Magnum cylinder for his 617, which would give him a cylinder for each cartridge.
I think you misread his post.
I have a Model 17 made in the early 1990s: 6-inch barrel, blue, finger groove combat grips and wonderfully accurate.
I too have wondered about the feasibility of shipping it off to S&W to have it fitted with an auxiliary .22 Magnum cylinder.
Would S&W do this? Smith stopped production of the blued model, but a stainless steel .22 Magnum cylinder in a blue frame would certainly prevent the use of wrong ammunition!
Is this feasible, or do barrels made for the .22 Magnum have a different twist or groove diameter.
Anyone know?
No, I didn't misread the post.

The diameter of the .22LR bullet is .222 as stated, and the .22 mag is .224. It doesn't seem like much, but remember that .22 mag ammo is usually copper jacketed as opposed to .22 lr ammo that is lead (softer). The safer route is to have the .22 mag gun, and then get a .22 lr cylinder. That way you know, for sure, that the bore and the barrel can handle the slightly larger, copper jacketed bullet and dramatically increased pressure of the .22 mag. That's the way the Single Six is designed.

Perhaps we may find out that the barrels of some .22 mag and .22 lr guns are absolutely, positively the same diameter and rifling, and only the markings on the outside are different, but without confirmation of that and/or an endorsement of safety from the manufacturer, I wouldn't assume it.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:20 AM
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can you make a 617 into a .22 mag? can you make a 617 into a .22 mag? can you make a 617 into a .22 mag? can you make a 617 into a .22 mag? can you make a 617 into a .22 mag?  
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Do not shoot 22 mags through a LR barrel.
S&W no longer fits aux. .22 LR cylinders for 22 mag guns.
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Old 02-25-2009, 12:28 AM
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S&W never would fit a .22 WMR (magnum) cylinder to one of their .22 LR revolvers, but lots of individual owners and gunsmiths have done so over the years. Sometimes they obtained the Magnum cylinders from S&W and sometimes they rechambered an extra LR cylinder.

No one I am aware of ever had a problem from what were somewhat greater pressures from putting a jacketed .224" bullet down a S&W .222" bore. The guns have a lot of high quality steel on them. The jackets on .22 WMR bullets are quite thin and the lead cores are quite soft.

I knew one fellow that, over several years, sent probably a dozen M-17, M-18 and M-63 revolvers back to S&W with their cylinders and extractors missing. He would tell them he had lost them. They fit new .22 LR cylinders and when he got them back, he would rechamber either the original cylinder, or the new one, to the Magnum round. He would sell them as having "S&W factory installed auxillary cylinders." He said nobody every brought one back.

This extra utility made the guns easy to sell. He said he couldn't get better accuracy from a M-48 than one of the .22 LR guns with a rechambered cylinder. That was true, but largely because he was a lousy shot!

That said, I think it is probably a bad idea.

I have a M-17 and a M-48 that can switch cylinders and they index just fine. Someday, if I ever get really bored, I plan on putting the .22 WMR/M-48 cylinder in the .22 LR/M-17 revolver, bolting it into a Ransom Rest, and testing out the accuracy factor.

The several M-48's I have owned have not been particularly accurate. On the same days, any M-17 or -18 I had along would group better. I don't know what others' experiences have been in this regard.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:35 AM
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Just buy a 648.
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:02 PM
David Lee Valdina David Lee Valdina is offline
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Many years ago I opened up the chamber on a Savage .22/.410 to take .22 mag. ammo and I never had any problems at all with it. Performance was fine. No sign of high pressure. Lapua Midas L and Lapua Midas M are different diameter .22 match ammo as some rifles like slightly larger and some like slightly smaller. .002" in a .22 rimfire isn't enough to fret about. My opinion only, your's may differ.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:10 PM
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This is my first post on this site and I know this is a old post. The .002 in bullet size is nothing. I measured a hand full of 22 mag rounds not one was .224. .221 - .223. I'm not seeing how there is a higher pressure because a lr uses a higher burn rate powder. Where the magnum uses a slower burning rifle powder. The local gunsmith reamed out all 6 cyclinders on my 617. With a 22 mag reamer. If the machine work is done correctly there should be zero risk. The frame is designed to shoot bullets with 5 times the weight. The side wall on the barrel is thicker than the side wall on my ruger 10/22 magnum rifle. If you add up the real time facts there is no risk.
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:19 PM
Lee Jones Lee Jones is offline
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Does anyone feel as I do that the accuracy problems with 22 mag is that no one produces a high quality 22 mag ammo?

Lee Jones
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Old 11-01-2013, 03:37 PM
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Well, my old 648 (that I bought in 1990), with a silver 2X Leopold pistol scope, will still shoot 1" groups from a bench at 100 yards. It's been my rabbit gun of choice and is plenty accurate for me.

Jon
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Old 11-01-2013, 05:06 PM
lscocoa lscocoa is offline
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An old gunsmith and friend who sadly passed on a while ago , purchased and built a BSA/Martini single shot .22lr and created one of the most accurate .22mag squirrel guns I ever had .I had a 4x16x50 scope on custom mounts . One hundred yard head shots on small critters was common if I did my part and no pressure problems out of that original 29" barrel . He also said he would have no problem doing a M-17.So I say go for it .
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:40 PM
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I think the cylinder could easily handle the increased pressure resulting from firing a 22 Magnum through a 22LR barrel. On look at those tiny little chambers in a cylinder sized for the 38 caliber reveals that there is a LOT of steel surrounding the chambers.

However, I do NOT know if the 22 Magnum case could withstand the increase in pressure and since the 22 Magnum is a rimfire a burst casing at the rim will be spitting hot gases in an area that our hands are exposed to. Best case would be you were wearing good leather gloves when the rim blew out and didn't get hurt. Worst case is that you weren't wearing gloves and you were exposed to a hot jet of gas moving at near supersonic velocity. In other words the worst case is a 4th degree burn that will leave a scar and take a long time to heal.

Bottomline, I don't think you would harm the 617 at all with this conversion. However, I also don't think that it's safe. Kind of wish I had a time machine so I could go back to when the 22 Magnum was developed and convince the designers that the bore for the new caliber should be an exact match to the 22LR. BTW, I'd also like to use that Time Machine to go back to the early days of the 20th Century and convince Mr. Luger that his new 9mm should use a bore diameter of 0.357 inch.
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Old 11-02-2013, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
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Just buy a 648.
Best advice!!!
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Old 02-10-2014, 06:53 PM
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I have a SW 617 4 inch and a few years back bought from Smith and Wesson a 22 mag cylinder . A Smith center gunsmith fitted it to my 617 . I haven't shot it extensively but I have experienced no problems . Accurate shooter with both 22 cylinder and 22mag cylinder . Both have their own cranes so easy conversion . The 22mag cylinder requires quality ammo .
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Old 02-10-2014, 09:58 PM
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I have a model 48 that was factory fitted w/a 22lr cylinder it shoots just about the same as my 17-3 and my 617, it was my only 22 revolver for a long time so it has seen a lot more long rifle than magnum rounds.

I would go with conventional wisdom get a 48 or 648 and have a long rifle cylinder fitted if you want a convertible. Also you see 48's with both cylinders for sale now and then(not cheap).
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:12 PM
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I've done it, I fitted a new magnum cylinder to my 17-5. I have not encountered any problems or signs of excessive pressure. This revolver is extremely accurate with the magnum cylinder. I have also recovered the magnum bullets after they were fired into water and they show no signs of being too large for the bore.

Mike
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:47 PM
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This conversation amazes me in that I often see people advising those with model 25s and oversized cylinder throats to fire larger slugs. Yet the barrels are .452. I was reading about an arsenal experiment (I believe by Kieth) where they opened up the throat of a rifle and fired a larger bullet (by several calipers) through the bore. Although they did record a initially higher pressure spike the rifle worked fine. I hardly think that .002 of soft lead with a thin jacket will be oversized once it passes the forcing cone and that the pressure from a 22mag doing so will be anything to write home about. Plus you have the vent of the cylinder barrel gap bleeding it off.

A far bigger firearm danger is poor headspacing or poor fitting cases.

I personally wouldn't worry about it with a correctly fitted 22 mag cylinder. But, then I personally think a 22mag is a whole lot of nothing. If I can't shoot it with a 22, why would I think I should shoot it with a 22mag. The increase is not worth anything. Its like the 17 rimfires. Answer to a need that doesn't exist. Not saying they are not fine guns just that they don't have any kind of nitch in my arsenal. So speaks someone with a Contender in 222 Remington, 30 and 357 Herret. LOL. If I wanted more than a 22 and less than a 38 I would get a hotrod 32, before I would by a new 22WMR. I can reload that.

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Old 02-11-2014, 11:06 AM
Yorkie Man Yorkie Man is offline
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The magnum cylinder allows you to achieve rifle velocities from a handgun. Don't expect too much bullet upset from the magnum when firing it from a 4" handgun. All of the bullets I have recovered show little expansion but they don't fly apart like some soft lead long rifle bullets. Like I said my revolver is very accurate with the magnum cylinder and it does not drop like the lr at 100', you can easily hit soda cans with out any holdover.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:05 PM
snubbiefan snubbiefan is offline
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I believe that in the early days Ruger (and likely others) flip-flopped on what barrel-bore to use on the convertibles and eventually settled on the 22-Mag. Some "economical" revolvers did the same thing. Had a 22LR barrel with an interchangeable 22-Mag cylinder. I just sold one about a month ago that clearly was stamped 22LR on the barrel and had a 22-Mag cylinder that came with it. I don't think it will be any problem at all for the 617 bore to handle if some of these pot-metal guns survived it.
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Old 09-05-2021, 01:36 AM
Erny Erny is offline
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Ballistically speaking it's really a waste of money converting a 22lR to a 22mag as in a 4inch barrel you are only going to gain around 100 to 150fps over a 22lr HV ammo. Is the target or small game going to notice any difference?

Last edited by Erny; 09-05-2021 at 01:39 AM.
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Old 09-05-2021, 06:53 AM
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It's quite a bit more than 150 fps.... My 18-2 4" has a 48 cylinder fitted and most .22 LR ammo is under 1000 fps....the Magnums are up in the 1400 range depending on the load. I get 1200+ from a High Standard Derringer.

Have had a bunch .22 LR revolvers fitted with .22 Magnum cylinders. A 1954 Colt Trooper .22 is at my smiths right now with an extra cylinder/crane assembly. The extra is being punched out to .22 Magnum after fitting. A friend did the same with a 4" Diamondback.

Have also done:
Model 63 with a Model 651 cylinder (x2)
Model 35 with a Model 51 cylinder
Model 17 with a Model 48 cylinder
Model 18 with a Model 48 cylinder

The bore from a .22 LR is .2225 and the .22 Magnum .224...with the pressure generated from a .22 Magnum does anyone really believe that this is going to be a pressure problem... Take a look at how much metal is in the cylinder wall of a NAA Mini-Revolver...

Freedom Arms, USFA and several others (not Ruger which is why their convertible Single-Sixs have lackluster accuracy with LRs) all use the .2225 bore size...they don't seem to have any problems...

Bob

...one of my all time favorite Smith .22ss,,,
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Old 09-05-2021, 08:07 AM
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I've been wanting to get a 48 or 648 (new versions) and I a smith fit long rifle cylinders to them. Numrich has the cylinders.
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Old 09-05-2021, 08:46 AM
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Regardless of whether or not you can shoot both from the same gun, they are different calibers and one or the other will not be as accurate in a dedicated caliber revolver.
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Old 09-05-2021, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Lee Valdina View Post
Many years ago I opened up the chamber on a Savage .22/.410 to take .22 mag. ammo and I never had any problems at all with it. Performance was fine. No sign of high pressure. Lapua Midas L and Lapua Midas M are different diameter .22 match ammo as some rifles like slightly larger and some like slightly smaller. .002" in a .22 rimfire isn't enough to fret about. My opinion only, your's may differ.
I agree. There are a quite a few gunsmiths doing the same thing to various guns with no fear of any harm to the gun or shooter.
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Old 09-05-2021, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
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Does anyone feel as I do that the accuracy problems with 22 mag is that no one produces a high quality 22 mag ammo?

Lee Jones
Iíve heard that theory, but I donít know. I love the 22WMR for small varmints, but they just arenít anywhere near a 22LR as far as accuracy. Iíve owned Anschutz, CZ, and a number of rifles known for accuracy, but the 22LR eats there lunch at 100 yards when it comes to accuracy. Of course the internet is full of rifles shooting one hole all day long at 100 yards
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Old 09-05-2021, 10:58 PM
Dave.357 Dave.357 is online now
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I have a model 63 with a extra 22mag cylinder fit to it.
But as someone else said 22 mag out of a 4Ē revolver
Is not very impressive.
That being said the gun is very accurate.
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Old 09-05-2021, 11:27 PM
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Wow some are worried about .22 magnum pressures in a k-frame!? Yes a slightly undersized barrel too, shivers. Get a grip folks. Any quality firearm can handle this conversion. A .22 Magnum chamber reamer is all that is needed. Off course now you just have a .22 Magnum. Just think how often one wishes to shoot .22 Mags? If itís worth it to you, do it.
This conversion is also regularly done to the Ruger Bearcats that feature a tighter bore size than the single-six.

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Old 09-06-2021, 08:16 AM
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I would not want to shave lead in the barrel also. I wanted to do this with my .22 Jet and ended up just getting a 48.

Bob
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Old 09-06-2021, 05:34 PM
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...Bob...it doesn't happen...it's kinda hard to "lead" a barrel with a jacketed or plated bullet like are used on .22 Magnum ammo.

At one time I wanted to add a .22 Magnum cylinder to my 53 also...but when one was found they ran between $600-800...just was not worth it to me...

As to .22 Magnum not being "accurate"...would have to disagree... One just has to find the ammo one's gun likes. I have a 60s vintage Savage 24J-DL..it will clover leaf Winchester 40 grain JHP ammo at 50 yards...with the new 30-33 JHPs...2-3"... I thought I was messing something up but when I ran the Winchester again right after the CCI it put three rounds in a thumbnail again..

Below targets were shot with a Ruger 77/.22 Magnum stainless with the Zetel boatpaddle stock... The other is a 10" TC Contender...also a shooter.. All you got do is find the right load.
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Last edited by SuperMan; 09-06-2021 at 05:37 PM.
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  #33  
Old 09-06-2021, 06:14 PM
rockquarry rockquarry is offline
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Originally Posted by steelslaver View Post
This conversation amazes me in that I often see people advising those with model 25s and oversized cylinder throats to fire larger slugs. Yet the barrels are .452. I was reading about an arsenal experiment (I believe by Kieth) where they opened up the throat of a rifle and fired a larger bullet (by several calipers) through the bore. Although they did record a initially higher pressure spike the rifle worked fine. I hardly think that .002 of soft lead with a thin jacket will be oversized once it passes the forcing cone and that the pressure from a 22mag doing so will be anything to write home about. Plus you have the vent of the cylinder barrel gap bleeding it off.

A far bigger firearm danger is poor headspacing or poor fitting cases.

I personally wouldn't worry about it with a correctly fitted 22 mag cylinder. But, then I personally think a 22mag is a whole lot of nothing. If I can't shoot it with a 22, why would I think I should shoot it with a 22mag. The increase is not worth anything. Its like the 17 rimfires. Answer to a need that doesn't exist. Not saying they are not fine guns just that they don't have any kind of nitch in my arsenal. So speaks someone with a Contender in 222 Remington, 30 and 357 Herret. LOL. If I wanted more than a 22 and less than a 38 I would get a hotrod 32, before I would by a new 22WMR. I can reload that.
Regarding oversize bullets in 25-2s and 25-5s... these oversized bullets are cast bullets, not jacketed. It hurts nothing and isn't dangerous as long as the diameter is within reason. A .454" or even .456" cast bullet fired in a .452" bore is fine if necessary and accuracy is much improved.

Ideally, about .002" over groove diameter with cast bullets is ideal if the bullets aren't undersized for the cylinder throats. However, sometimes out of necessity larger diameter bullets are required.

The only way I can see one getting into potentially dangerous territory with oversized bullets would be if the alloy was very hard, say 25-30 BHN or thereabouts, but such hard alloys are seldom if ever needed for handgun cartridges.
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Old 09-06-2021, 08:46 PM
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The lead in jacketed bullets is almost always way softer than cast bullet and the jacket it both thin and very soft itself. All bullets in rifled barrels have to deform and get squeezed to some degree. A normal center fire 22 round has a .224 bullet and going into a normal barrel on which only the grooves are .224 and the lands about .219 so all that volume taken up by the lands has to be squeezed into the bullet, jacketed, soft, hard, what have you. In effect a normal 224 barrel with 50/50 land groove radio has a average of .2215 even on a 220 swift or 22-250.

Lets do some math a .224 bullet has an area of (.224/2)≤ x 3.14 for .0393 sqin. a .222 bullet has .0386 sq in, less than a 1% difference.

The phenomena of large bullets working in a small bore without pressure spikes is documented in P.O. Ackley 1966 "Handbook for Shooters
and Reloaders Vol 2" chapter 7
"additional pressure tests":
"..30 cal barrel pressure barrel was fitted to the test gun, but the
neck and throat was enlarged to accept the 8mm (.323) bullet, with the bore remaining the standard 30 caliber. A Remington factory 30-06 cartridge with the 150 gr bullet had been tested and previously gave 57,300 psi, for a velocity of 3030 fps. The the bullets were pulled from two more Remington 150 grain cartridges and were replaced with 8mm 150 grain
bullets. To everyone's surprise, although the velocity was rather erratic, these loads averaged 2901
fps, with a pressure of 40,700 psi."

As Ackely said the bullet fit the barrel perfectly after traveling its own length.

Many gunsmiths have used have regularly used .308 barrels on 32-30 rifles etc etc.

You run into problems when the neck of the chamber is to tight. Lets say I load a .312 bullet in a 30-06 case, then chamber it in a normal 30-06 chamber. Probably wouldn't go in a semi auto or many lever guns, but it will with the caming action of a bolt. Now I am going to have problems because the case neck has been pinched down on the bullet and it will not release as it should and pressure would rise rapidly until it finally released. If the chamber neck was opened up .004 the bullet so the bullet case combination fit normally it would release normally and resize to .308 as it deformed to take the rifling and away it would go with normal pressure.

300 blackouts in a 5.56mm don't blow up just because of the bullet. not only are you trying to force a bullet with an area of .0745 down a bore with an area of .0387 (amost double) the case also ruptures because it does not fit the chamber properly and gas release and force of flow outward add to the problem

Last edited by steelslaver; 09-06-2021 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 09-11-2021, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rkittine View Post
I would not want to shave lead in the barrel also. I wanted to do this with my .22 Jet and ended up just getting a 48.

Bob
You made a good point, maybe not
What you thought though.
Model 53 was made to shoot bullets
Of .222 diameter but sold auxiliary
.22 LR cylinder . .22 LR measures .223
It causes no leading issues.
It is .001 over size for barrel just
like .22 magnum is .001 over size
In a .22 LR barrel
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