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S&W Revolvers: 1980 to the Present All NON-PINNED Barrels, the L-Frames, and the New Era Revolvers


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  #1  
Old 09-13-2008, 11:57 AM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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When S&W made the change from hammer mounted to frame mounted firing pins, I did not like it for the same reason I distrust 1911s without a firing pin safety. It is "theoretically" possible to have an accidental discharge if the revolver is dropped, as there is nothing stopping the frame mounted firing pin from forward inertial movement, which could result in a firing pin strike.

Now, before all of you scientists in the group jump on this, I realize that the weight or mass of the frame mounted firing pin is so small that the revolver might have to be dropped from something the height of, say, Mount Everest, to generate enough forward inertia to set off a primer and fire a round. With its hammer block, S&Ws with hammer mounted firing pins were just not subject to this, even in theory.

That said, I had assumed there would be no other issues with frame mounted firing pins, especially since Charter Arms, Ruger and others have used them with good results.

Now, I know it is not a scientific sample, but I seem to read of many problems with S&Ws having failure to fire issues with frame mounted firing pins.

Some of you say that the firing pin is too short as it comes from the factory. Others of you say that you put in a longer after market firing pin. At least one person writes, in almost every thread about this topic, that it is not the length of the firing pin that matters, but the energy. I am still not sure I understand that one, but OK, if you say so.

So, here are my questions:

1. Is there a pervasive problem with the reliability of S&Ws with frame mounted firing pins.

2. It looks to my naked eye as if the new frame mounted firing pin does not protrude through the recoil shield as much as the older hammer mounted style. Has anyone taken accurate measurements? If so, is it true or is it an "optical illusion?"

3. Does S&W have a fix for this "problem" if it is a problem?

4. Have there been any design changes in the frame mounted firing pins? (For example, are the current ones different in any way than the originals, i.e. weight, length, etc.?)

5. If using a revolver for self-defense, should there be any changes to the current design of the firing pin?

6. Does anyone know if any agencies have insisted on longer firing pins or heavier firing pins or anything different than S&W puts on the commercial revolvers.

It may be mild paranoia (or not), but I don't like seeing posts about how revolvers intended for self defense won't fire on occasion. I realize S&W has great customer service, but this kind of failure seems to destroy my confidence in a self defense weapon, especially if a cause related to a defect is not identified. If no cause unrelated to a defect is identified, then the problem takes on a random or hit and miss approach, and you never know when it might strike again.

Also, I don't like having to depend on a close tolerance with respect to headspace or end shake or whatever, as that does not seem to be a good plan. If the cylinder is able to move forward just a little because of too much headspace or end shake, or if a cartridge seats just a tad too deeply in the chamber, and the result is misfires, that just "seems" too random to me.

Would you people who are knowledgable on this subject please chime in?

I have read all of the old threads about issues, but I do not feel the issue has been fully covered, at least in one place and with durrent information.

Thank you all in advance for your thoughts and help with this complex problem.
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:57 AM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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When S&W made the change from hammer mounted to frame mounted firing pins, I did not like it for the same reason I distrust 1911s without a firing pin safety. It is "theoretically" possible to have an accidental discharge if the revolver is dropped, as there is nothing stopping the frame mounted firing pin from forward inertial movement, which could result in a firing pin strike.

Now, before all of you scientists in the group jump on this, I realize that the weight or mass of the frame mounted firing pin is so small that the revolver might have to be dropped from something the height of, say, Mount Everest, to generate enough forward inertia to set off a primer and fire a round. With its hammer block, S&Ws with hammer mounted firing pins were just not subject to this, even in theory.

That said, I had assumed there would be no other issues with frame mounted firing pins, especially since Charter Arms, Ruger and others have used them with good results.

Now, I know it is not a scientific sample, but I seem to read of many problems with S&Ws having failure to fire issues with frame mounted firing pins.

Some of you say that the firing pin is too short as it comes from the factory. Others of you say that you put in a longer after market firing pin. At least one person writes, in almost every thread about this topic, that it is not the length of the firing pin that matters, but the energy. I am still not sure I understand that one, but OK, if you say so.

So, here are my questions:

1. Is there a pervasive problem with the reliability of S&Ws with frame mounted firing pins.

2. It looks to my naked eye as if the new frame mounted firing pin does not protrude through the recoil shield as much as the older hammer mounted style. Has anyone taken accurate measurements? If so, is it true or is it an "optical illusion?"

3. Does S&W have a fix for this "problem" if it is a problem?

4. Have there been any design changes in the frame mounted firing pins? (For example, are the current ones different in any way than the originals, i.e. weight, length, etc.?)

5. If using a revolver for self-defense, should there be any changes to the current design of the firing pin?

6. Does anyone know if any agencies have insisted on longer firing pins or heavier firing pins or anything different than S&W puts on the commercial revolvers.

It may be mild paranoia (or not), but I don't like seeing posts about how revolvers intended for self defense won't fire on occasion. I realize S&W has great customer service, but this kind of failure seems to destroy my confidence in a self defense weapon, especially if a cause related to a defect is not identified. If no cause unrelated to a defect is identified, then the problem takes on a random or hit and miss approach, and you never know when it might strike again.

Also, I don't like having to depend on a close tolerance with respect to headspace or end shake or whatever, as that does not seem to be a good plan. If the cylinder is able to move forward just a little because of too much headspace or end shake, or if a cartridge seats just a tad too deeply in the chamber, and the result is misfires, that just "seems" too random to me.

Would you people who are knowledgable on this subject please chime in?

I have read all of the old threads about issues, but I do not feel the issue has been fully covered, at least in one place and with durrent information.

Thank you all in advance for your thoughts and help with this complex problem.
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  #3  
Old 09-13-2008, 12:12 PM
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I'll let all the rest anwser your questions, but there is a firing pin block in your revolver. Unless the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear the block is in place. and yes I do agree the firing pin is shorter then that which is hammer mounted.
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Old 09-13-2008, 01:01 PM
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I've never had a problem with any of my frame mounted pins.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:05 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Revolver_King:
I'll let all the rest anwser your questions, but there is a firing pin block in your revolver. Unless the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear the block is in place. and yes I do agree the firing pin is shorter then that which is hammer mounted.
Actually there is NOT a firing pin block in an S&W revolver. There IS a hammer block, which prevents the hammer from reaching the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled, but there is NOT a firing pin block, at least in the ones with the frame mounted firing pin.

The frame mounted firing pin sits in the frame held back from the primer by only a spring, which means it is technically like a 1911 firing pin (although much shorter) in that only the spring holds it back, which means it can move under inertia without any hammer movement.

However, I do not want this thread to degenerate into a discussion of this facet of the frame mounted firing pin design, as this aspect of the design is not my real concern.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:24 PM
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We are talking about the same thing. You call it a hammer block I call it a firing pin block in that it prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:44 PM
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In my modest collection of S&W revolvers I have a pretty equal number with frame mounted and hammer mounted firing pins. Looking with a magnifying glass, I'm certain that the hammer mounted pins stick out more.

I've never had either type fail to fire. My 642 seems to stick out the least and the tip has a cone shape rather than rounded but it always works too. The fired primers all look like they are being struck about the same no matter the type of firing pin.

As far as inertial firing goes, I can't imagine a scene where that could even be a remote possibility.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:57 PM
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Although all modern S&W revolvers have a hammer block, the frame mounted firing pins which they put on revolvers these days are of a "free floating" design. Nothing but the firing pin spring holds it in it's retracted position. S&W has relatively recently shortened their frame mounted firing pins from .495" to .485" in length. The shorter (.485") pins are also somewhat more pointed (conical) in shape at the end that contacts the primer. My understanding is that this may have been done in order to pass California drop test standards. It's apparently possible, at least in California, for the firing pin to come forward and ignite a primer from it's own inertia if the revolver is dropped just right from a high enough distance. Although I personally don't like the new firing pin being so short, I've heard conflicting opinions about whether it causes any misfire problems. I have not experienced any problems myself with my revolvers which have the shorter version of the frame mounted pin and don't personally know anybody who has. As many new revolvers as S&W sells, it seems like we would have heard more about it if there was a reliability issue with the shorter pins.
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:10 PM
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Shawn,

In an effort to make a complex problem simple, remember that any mechanical system can fail at some time. To isolate the frame mounted pin as the demon here is not quite fair, since it is just a one of several links in the chain. A failure could come from the ammo; primer, powder, bullet, case, loading or reloading methods. A failure could come from the trigger mechanism, springs, lubricant, dust or dirt. A failure could come from the hammer system itself; hammer, mainspring tension, rebound springs, block, screws, pins etc...or, under stress, the failure can come from the shooter.

Believe it or not, the shooter's action can cause the gun not to fire. I have seen a shooter "short stroke" a trigger and miss a shot and later claim it was the gun that failed. Like a number of other "High Emotion" posts on this forum, people can report on just about anything they want, without having the proof to prove it.

In order to put your mind at rest, I suggest you perform a "Design and Failure Mode Effects Analysis". This will give you a better understanding of the variables in the system and the reliability expectations you may encounter.
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Old 09-13-2008, 04:33 PM
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Old 09-13-2008, 05:07 PM
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You seem a bit worried . Let me give you two more things to worry about:

1] FRAME MOUNTED. Although the frame-mounted f. pin has much less mass than a 1911s, so does the return spring have much less force to keep it from moving forward. By hand, you can force a 1911 pin forward and compare it to the force needed on a S&W. The difference is not great. But, the mass (and therefore momentum imparted) of the S&W pin is so much less, the height required to set one off is proportionatly greater by the difference in the masses of the two firing pins.

2] HAMMER MOUNTED. It IS theoretically possible for a drop of sufficient force to SHEAR the hollow rivet holding the f. pin, allowing the firing pin to continue moving forward, possibly setting off a primer. This is because the hammer block only blocks the...hammer body.

In other words, stop worrying! Yes, the hammer-mounted system is a bit safer, but probably not enough to matter.
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Old 09-13-2008, 07:37 PM
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mj0lnir,

Welcome to the forum. I can see by your forum name that you might be interested in hammer mounted firing pins.

Buck
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:00 PM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mj0lnir:
You seem a bit worried . Let me give you two more things to worry about:

1] FRAME MOUNTED. Although the frame-mounted f. pin has much less mass than a 1911s, so does the return spring have much less force to keep it from moving forward. By hand, you can force a 1911 pin forward and compare it to the force needed on a S&W. The difference is not great. But, the mass (and therefore momentum imparted) of the S&W pin is so much less, the height required to set one off is proportionatly greater by the difference in the masses of the two firing pins.

2] HAMMER MOUNTED. It IS theoretically possible for a drop of sufficient force to SHEAR the hollow rivet holding the f. pin, allowing the firing pin to continue moving forward, possibly setting off a primer. This is because the hammer block only blocks the...hammer body.

In other words, stop worrying! Yes, the hammer-mounted system is a bit safer, but probably not enough to matter.
Thank you for the comment, but you missed the point. As I said the issue of inertial discharge was not my primary concern.

My primary concern is whether people are experiencing failures to fire with the frame mounted firing pins in greater numbers than with the hammer mounted, and if so, what is the solution.
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Old 09-14-2008, 12:23 AM
RON in PA RON in PA is offline
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I do not remember seeing any posts on this web site or any others claiming a problem with frame mounted firing pins. Also remember that long before the change to frame mounted firing pins on all models, S&W used them on their 22 RF revolvers as well as the relatively rare 547 9x19 mm revolvers.

IMHO this is a non-issue unless you believe that the sky is falling.
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Old 09-14-2008, 06:46 AM
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I had light strikes with my frame-pin 325 TR. A trip back to S&W resulted in a fix that lasted one range session. Then I was getting about a 50% failure rate. Someone advised me to check the main spring strain screw and sure enough, it had backed out. Tightening it reduced the rate to 5%. Then I installed a Cylinder & Slide extended pin and the problem disappeared. It handles factory and reloads and is now a great gun to shoot.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:01 AM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by RON in PA:
I do not remember seeing any posts on this web site or any others claiming a problem with frame mounted firing pins. Also remember that long before the change to frame mounted firing pins on all models, S&W used them on their 22 RF revolvers as well as the relatively rare 547 9x19 mm revolvers.

If you have not seen posts on this web site concerning this issue, then you are not looking very hard. The one right after yours is only the most recent one I have seen.

IMHO this is a non-issue unless you believe that the sky is falling.
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:02 AM
shawn mccarver shawn mccarver is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by twigs:
I had light strikes with my frame-pin 325 TR. A trip back to S&W resulted in a fix that lasted one range session. Then I was getting about a 50% failure rate. Someone advised me to check the main spring strain screw and sure enough, it had backed out. Tightening it reduced the rate to 5%. Then I installed a Cylinder & Slide extended pin and the problem disappeared. It handles factory and reloads and is now a great gun to shoot.
So, let me get this right - after a trip to the factory for a fix, the revolver had a strain screw that had backed out or was not tightened in the first place, and tightening it reduced the failure to fire rate to ONLY 5%?

Isn't the 325TR's sole reason for being self-defense?
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Old 09-14-2008, 10:20 AM
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I'm surprised you haven't seen any mention of light strikes in various threads. They're mentioned all the time. New S&W's come with a very short firing pin, and FTF's are common. You can send the gun back and forth to S&W hoping to get lucky, or install a longer pin for 100% reliability.
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Old 09-14-2008, 02:55 PM
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Sorry Shawn, I was replying to the "even in theory" part of your question and the general tone of concern.

I have noticed my 629-6 has noticeably less protrusion than the 629, yet have had no misfires (yet). The 325PD, an earlier gun, has more protrusion than a 625-4. I suppose that goes to DB's comment re: the change in firing pin lengths.

As a test of reliability (assuming reloading capability), one could prime several hundred empty cases with various brands of primers, chamber them, and set them off in a safe place. You'd only be out the cost of the primers vs. cost of loaded rounds. That should at least isolate the reliability of the firing system.

And Haggis, you've "nailed" it.
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Old 09-14-2008, 07:23 PM
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Every once in a blue moon a failure to fire will be ammunition related. Assuming factory ammo, almost all ftf are gun related. Usually, in a Smith, from unscrewing the main spring strain screw. Enough end shake will also make a firearm unreliable. A 5% ftf is 5/100, totally unacceptable. There should always be a margin of error for the hard to ignite primers, primer not fully seated, endsake, etc will still fire.
You just never see an unmodified hammer mounted firing pin not exert enough of an impact on a primer to fire the round!
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Old 09-15-2008, 01:58 PM
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I agree that a 5% failure rate is unacceptable for any defensive weapon. Moreover, I wanted it to be 100% reliable with any 45ACP ammo. That's why I did a lot of reading on this forum and others (and give thanks to those who posted such helpful info), looked at some DVD's, and installed the extended firing pin myself rather than send it back to S&W.
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Old 09-15-2008, 02:29 PM
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I've seen the longer firing pins for sale in Brownell's I think. Might be worth the minor investment.

I haven't had any failures with my 22-4 (fired only a few hundred rounds), but don't want any either.

I'm not concerned with the safety aspect. It's the same type of pin arrangement that they put on .22's WAAAY back. I don't think it's unsafe at all, but a possible failure to fire is a concern.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:58 AM
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Obviously it has been years since I bought any new S&W J-frames.

So my new gun has very little firing pin showing when hammer down, or firing pin pushed down level with frame under the hammer. And it is an old issue that people are tired of discussing. Obviously not a problem. I was going to suggest pointing it downward to fire a primer in an empty shell. That way the air gap would be between the firing pin and the primer making the distance maximum. Pointed straight up the primer would be sitting against the firing pin hole - minimum distance.

In my old 1911 45 acp there was no firing pin sticking out when hammer down, or firing pin pushed down to bottom under hammer. It was a total inertia firing pin. It was not long enough to touch the hammer and Primer at same time. The firing pin traveled forward under it’s own weight to complete the firing process. One gun magazine article mentioned it would need to be dropped on the end of its barrel from at least 10 stories high, and the slide not move backward setting the slide disconnect safety, for it to theoretically fire.

I am impressed at the large area of the hammer face above where the hammer contacts the firing pin. Also the large flat area of frame it hits means to me it is safe to dry fire. S&W already said it was safe to dry fire, but I did not completely accept it.

In the 1970’s my 10 speed bicycle had aluminum rims and they were constantly bending. I was tuning the spokes almost monthly, taking the wobble out. My 2006 “mountain bike” has aluminum alloy rims and they are really strong. No bending at all in years of sorta gentle riding on dirt roads. Metallurgy has changed at almost the rate it takes for computers to change. (Moores Law)

Anyway the fact that this has not been debated in 4 or 5 years is good information.
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:28 AM
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Old thread, but I encountered the misfiring problem even further back, probably 2002 or so. New 625. Bone stock, it would misfire every sort of .45 ACP ammo at least 5% of the time. Usually more. Swapped clips. Tried not using clips. Checked for hammer rubbing. Swapped mainspring screw. Swapped mainspring.

Nothing helped.

Finally, I turned out a slightly longer firing pin made of beryllium copper. That helped quite a bit! But it still misfired ~0.5%.

Finally, a fellow that i knew took it off my hands. He isn't a high round count shooter and has never complained about that revolver, AFAIK.

It's recent replacement, a 625JM had been trouble free. And so have all the other frame mounted firing pin S&Ws since the first one. But it wasn't a good introduction!

BTW, the frame mounted firing pin in my Python broke about 3-4 months after purchasing new! Made a beryllium pin for it as well and it hasn't given a lick if trouble since. BUT, not once have I ever had a drama with the old S&W hammer mounted firing pin. Nor recall having seen anybody else's "old style" with anything but pitting or flame cutting due to pierced primers. (Not including those few instances where someone tried to remove the rivet!)

Last edited by jaymoore; 12-21-2012 at 08:31 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:27 AM
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My take on the Frame Mounted Firing Pin.

Most guns never have an issue.

If you do have any failures to fire first check the Strain Screw and see if it has backed off. Next issue End Shake.

It can also show up with a change of Springs to improve the trigger pull.

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